MBB: Liberty League

[Hoaf]

That is still probably the common wisdom in the elitist suburbs of NYC, as it was the common wisdom of my elitist Connecticut hometown.  Fortunately I guess I was either a) too dumb and/or b) too smart to put much stock into that.

I do recall getting a lot of funny looks when I told folks I chose Hobart over Middlebury. 

I understand where you're coming from though. Hobart has a beautiful campus and is surrounded by a wonderful lake with lots of wineries. My best friend goes there and he loves it. I understand your reasoning. I think I'm just trying to justify paying 45k a year for an education here at Hamilton.

[Hoaf]

I thought you guys might be interested in how our conference has stacked up in the NCAA tournament since automatic bids have taken place. I found this little piece of statistical data in the multi-region topic area.

Conference Rankings Based on Past Playoff Records

Rank #	Conference Name	Win-Loss Record	W-L Percentage
1.	Wisconsin Intercollegiate Athletic Conference	27-8	.771
2.	Ohio Athletic Conference	17-7	.708
3T	Michigan Intercollegiate Athletic Association	16-8	.667
3T	New England Small College Athletic Conference	26-13	.667
5.	Capital Athletic Conference	14-8	.636
6.	College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin	21-12	.636
7.	New Jersey Athletic Conference	15-9	.625
8.	North Coast Athletic Conference	15-10	.600
9.	Old Dominion Athletic Conference	17-12	.586
10.	University Athletic Association	14-10	.583
11T	New England Women's and Men's Athletic Conference	12-9	.571
11T	State University of New York Athletic Conference	12-9	.571
13.	Great South Athletic Conference	8-7	.533
14.	Northwest Conference	10-9	.526
15T	MAC Commonwealth League	9-9	.500
15T	Heartland Collegiate Athletic Conference	7-7	.500
15T	Massachusetts State Collegiate Athletic Conference	7-7	.500
15T	MAC Freedom League	7-7	.500
19.	Minnesota Intercollegiate Athletic Conference	10-11	.476
20.	American Southwest Conference	9-10	.473
21.	Little East Conference	7-8	.467
22T	Centennial Conference	6-7	.462
22T	Liberty League	6-7	.462
24.	Empire 8	6-8	.429
25.	Midwest Conference	6-9	.400
26T	Southern Collegiate Athletic Conference	5-8	.385
26T	Pennsylvania Athletic Conference	5-8	.385
26T	Southern California Intercollegiate Athletic Conference	5-8	.385
29T	Iowa Intercollegiate Athletic Conference	4-7	.364
29T	Skyline Conference	4-7	.364
31T	Allegheny Mountain Collegiate Conference	3-6	.333
31T	North Eastern Athletic Conference	1-2	.333
33.	USA South Athletic Conference	3-7	.300
34.	Independents	3-10	.231
35.	Great Northeast Athletic Conference	2-7	.222
36.	Presidents' Athletic Conference	1-4	.200
37.	Northern Illinois-Iowa Conference	1-7	.125
38.	City University of New York Athletic Conference	1-8	.111
39T	North Atlantic Conference	0-6	.000
39T	Lake Michigan Conference	0-7	.000
39T	St. Louis Intercollegiate Athletic Conference	0-7	.000
39T	Commonwealth Coast Conference	0-8	.000

[labart96]

Looks like the standings from football - pretty much all the top D3 conferences are from/in the midwest.....

[rjcarter8]

Now the welchons comment was just a stir the pot comment it had no truth to it, maybe he was going to Union, who knows and quite frankly cares.

First you say, there's no way Welchons would go to union, then you say maybe, followed by who knows and who cares.

The comment wasn't necessarily meant to stir the pot, just a response to Montana not being able to get better quality players than Hamilton.

As for the college rankings, that is overall, not necessarily what the schools' do for admission of athletes. From what I understand, Union doesn't really give much consideration for athletes — except for football and hockey — while other schools' help out athletes in many sports.

[b4the3isme]

I can only comment from personal experience at Union, that I was told by a coach that a push from the coach turned a wait list to an outright acceptance at Union. A second story from a friend said financial packages got better when a prospect was going to attend a different college.  So I'm not positive that Union totally ignores athletes.  As to the Hamilton vs Union vs Hobart vs Middlebury -of that cast only Middlebury may be able to call itself "far superior".  Having ties to the other three by virtue of relatives attending or having attended all 3 they are all great schools and each have strengths and weaknesses.  For instance Engineering at Hobart and Hamilton were virtually non-existent requiring a 3-2 program where the final 2 years were at different schools, whereas Union has an excellent program within a liberal arts atmosphere.  Hobart has a sailing team which was one guys reason for attending.  Hamilton probably does have the 2nd best "rep" but I wouldn't say by leaps and bounds.

[Hoaf]

Everyone has their points about those schools and I think they are all legit. Let's get back to talking about basketball.

Coach Montana does get my vote for coach of the year. His team didn't look that stellar in their loss to Hamilton over the weekend but I have seen Montana in the past get more out of his players.

TK gets my vote for player of the year. I think he's had the best statistical performance of anyone in the league and except for a couple games, Hamilton has won every game he's played in.

Rookie of the year is up for grabs. I haven't look into the stat sheets enough to come up with my own opinion yet.

I also have a random thought. Do you think any team in the LL could beat Amherst? I was at the Hamilton/Amherst NCAA tourney game last year and there was no competition. With Amherst being in the top spot it got me thinking about how little the LL plays the better teams in the NESCAC (Besides Williams, who usually has a good team). I'd really like to see Trinity, Bates, and Amherst play SLU, Hamilton, and Vassar on a more regular basis. It could get some inter-conference rivalries going.

[labart96]

Hoaf -

Why is Hamilton in the LL for BB, but in the NESCAC for pretty much all other sports?

[Hoaf]

They are in the NESCAC for football, hockey, squash, softball, and baseball.... also a couple more.

The reason they are in the Liberty League is because of travel. The college doesn't like having students traveling to and from Colby, Bates, Bowdoin, or any other team that's 5+ hours a way every other week. It makes no sense to have students drive up to 10 hours to play a team that is in your own conference.

The reason Hamilton is in the NESCAC for other sports is because of alumni and infrequent travel. The football team travels only once a week along with the squash and hockey teams. But the other reason for Hamilton sticking around in the NESCAC is because the alumni fund the teams and they remember playing teams like Trinity and Williams. Also, they deem the NESCAC a more prestigious league in their eyes because of the selectivity of the schools in it.

If any of that makes sense, that's what my understanding is while being a member of the student body.

[labart96]

That's what I figured.  Thx!

[b4the3isme]

Hoaf- I just can't see a LL team beating Amherst, but that being said I could see the potential for 3 teams to get into the ECAC this year.  Obviously there is a lot of basketball before then but the E8 is down this year and SUNYAC is mired in mediocrity with only B-port and Plattsburgh with any bragging rights. Even Clarkson has wins over Utica and RIT this year.  RPI I believe has a win over Williams.  Union with its "overachieving" league record could grab a spot. Vassar too.  Assuming SLU or Hamilton wins the tournament either one of the them should be lock for the ECAC's if they lose I would think.  SLU if they play well for the rest of the season and lose in the final may even get an at large bid to the dance.. I suppose, though it might be more of a stretch, Hamilton might possibly get the same consideration with 6 losses (their final loss coming in the league championship game) but that would be pretty unlikely.

[Hoaf]

I don't think they could beat them either but I'd like to watch some LL/NESCAC basketball that doesn't include sloppy play by Williams or Middlebury.

[met_fan]

For a time in the late 90's, Hamilton played both a full LL and NESCAC schedule in basketball.  The main reason they dropped the NESCAC was because they had no travel partner, which put them at a competetive disadvantage.  For instance, the NESCAC schedule only includes one game against each team, on a Friday/Saturday setup.  Hamilton would travel for their away weekend, say against Tufts and Bates.  Since they had no travel partner, each of those teams would only have one game that weekend, while Hamilton played back to back, with the Saturday game coming against a fresh team.  That was the case every weekend.  Otherwise, the travel isn't that much different than LL weekends in the north country or capital region, especially since there would only be two or three road trips a year without the home and away schedule.  Incidently, in hockey, Bates has no team, so Hamilton has a travelling partner (Middlebury, I think), negating the disadvantage the basketball team faced. 

Regarding Amherst - no LL team would play with them this year.  Hardly any NESCAC teams, or anyone else, have played with them either.  They are by far the class of the East/Northeast this year.  Maybe NYU or Rochester could give them a game, but I don't think they'll have much luck either.

[labart96]

Amherst's 23-0 record is really impressive. 

[Hoaf]

Thanks for the history. I never really knew Hamilton's past regarding NESCAC play. I find it interesting that they would play in two conferences. How did that work once it got to conference tourney time? Is that what you were saying, that they played a full schedule in both conferences?

I agree with you that no LL team could beat Amherst but that doesn't mean that I wouldn't be entertained at local game by watching them play. I wish Amherst would travel to the snow belt once in awhile.

[Hoaf]

The first regional rankings are out. FYI

East Region
1 St. Lawrence 18-3 17-3
2 Brockport State 16-4 15-4
3 Utica 17-3 16-3
4 New York U. 16-4 14-4
5 Rochester 15-5 15-4