MBB: Liberty League

[Pat Coleman]

big win for vc. by all accounts it was a great game, wish i coulda been there.

does anyone know where i can find regional rankings?

Here, but not until the second week of February, when the NCAA releases them.

[labart96]

Close but no cigar against Vassar.  Not looking good for Hobart (1-8 in last 9 games).

[with age comes?]

TGP- have you seen Hobart play?  They are an enigma to me?!  The win over SJF was, I thought, as good a win as they've had in awhile, but they've been pretty bad since early in the season?  Any injuries, doubts of youth, etc.  Haven't seen them play yet so I can't really comment too much but they do puzzle me...

P.S. Anyone up there in the north country I would appreciate updates on SLU vs Clarkson - I can't seem to get the game on the net.... it sucks being virtually computer illiterate..

[thebear]

St. Lawrence leads Clarkson 27-9 with 8:05 in the first Half.  SLU on a 22-2 run.

[thebear]

Halftime SLU 36 Clarkson 24

[with age comes?]

Thanks Bear,   sounds like Clarkson woke up a little bit after that God awful start.  Wife still at work so she was able to get on for the second half so I listenned in on the telephone.  One of these days I'm going to actually learn how to work one of these contraptions properly.  Final I believe was something like 84-69??  Were you there?  It sounded like SLU was always able to keep the Knights just far enough away from a serious challenge..  at least it was more competitive than the Union or Skidmore games..

[labart96]

TGP- have you seen Hobart play?  They are an enigma to me?!  The win over SJF was, I thought, as good a win as they've had in awhile, but they've been pretty bad since early in the season?  Any injuries, doubts of youth, etc.  Haven't seen them play yet so I can't really comment too much but they do puzzle me...

P.S. Anyone up there in the north country I would appreciate updates on SLU vs Clarkson - I can't seem to get the game on the net.... it sucks being virtually computer illiterate..

Can't say as I have since I live in Los Angeles and haven't been back to Geneva since the late 90s.  I was encouraged by the early returns but the team has been in a free fall since mid-December.  I can only chalk it up to Coach Iz being new to the program and the requisite growing pains that go with bringing in a new system, etc.  Hobart has never really been a "basketball school", but I had hoped with the strong finish in 07 and the good start this year, things may change.  Unfortunately, it looks like another losing season in LL for the Hobart Hoopsters.

[with age comes?]

Well TGP the season is young  (and there's always lacrosse!)

[Chief1101]

Hobart will not have another losing season in the liberty league.. you have to remember, currently they are starting 3 frosh..and about 5 or 6 frosh play significant minutes...grazioli is the best big man in the conference by far, but he needs more help in the front-court..

llewellyn, salzmann, and estep will be all-league selections in years to come..this team is up and coming and im willing to bet they make a run at the fourth spot in the conference tournament..if not, look out next year...


as for the other teams..clarkson has always been good defensively, but has never been able to score..
st.lawrence has and always will be a soft team...richard williams is the softest big man in division 3 basketball and I say this from experience...union is always a fundamentally sound team but they seem to be lacking that big game player this year...skidmore is no longer the laughing stock of the league and they seem to be playing D and they can shoot the 3 ball..RPI has a good big man in Simmons, but he is one dimensional because he does the same move everytime..spin over the shoulder and tries to throw his body into you..Hamilton is always well coached and their starting point guard Simpson is very good..he is a great floor leader and can put up points when he needs too..with Dave Alston leaving the school, he has had to step up and seems to be doing soo..Alston would have been one of the top players in the league this year..As for Vassar, they have had the same squad for a few years now, and Avitable is a quality player along with Brazell and Butterworth..but after this year, its back to square one because all the good players are graduatiing..I can say this now, Vassar will not win the Liberty League tournament..

[bucketsallday]

grazioli is the best big man in the conference by far? really? what about larry avitabile? first team all-conference last year, first team all-region last year, the four and best player on the best team in the league, and if that isnt enough take a look at his numbers - second in the conference in scoring at 17.3 (a whopping .3 behind grazioli), first in boards at 9.9 per, and averages 2.5 assists, 2 steal, and 2 blocks (all top five in conference) while shooting 65% from the floor (which leads the conference). check your facts next time.

[bucketsallday]

and how can you say vassar will not win the LL tourney? especially when we are a whole three games into league play. their only loss this year is too an emerson team with only one loss. granted, they play in the gnac, which im pretty sure is the conference for the deaf and blind, but any team with one loss at this point in the season is doing something right. and if you had any doubts about their record, how is beating hamilton, hobart, and rpi on the road where they are always tough. vassar heads up north this weekend, which is always a tough trip for them (6 1/2 hours is a long way), but they have gona 3-1 the last two years on this trip, sweeping last year. if the last three games havent proved this squad yet, then a good weekend should.

will anyone ever give a vassar team credit, or will a record of 11-1, 3-0 never outweigh the fact it is "vassar".

[Chief1101]

Never said Avitable was not good..he is a great player, but he is not a big man..he is a 3 or 4 man..grazioli is a true 5 and there is not a big man in the league who has a better touch then him..yes we are 3 games into league play, i understand that, but im telling you they will not win the tourney..butterworth is a streaky shooter, they dont have a true pg, brazell is very talented but doesnt seem to have it all there all the time, and avitable is not a scorer..he is a garbage man, a very good one at that who gets buckets around the hoop..he is not a natural scorer..he has tremendously long arms and he is the most active player in the league..but watch, 2nd time around in league play, teams will beat vassar....hobart lost by 20 last year to them at vassar and destroyed them on their homecourt because they took avitable out of his game and butterworth is streaky..you get in butterworth defensively, he can not do anything..

ur right im not up on the stats, but i know basketball..avitable may well be the best all around player in the league, but he is not a scorer..he can not take a game over..he rebs and through rebs (offense/defense), he dominates..

grazioli is a pure shooter who does not miss from 15ft and in..but he does not have a great supporting cast..his 3/4 man are frosh and they are not there yet..give them a few years and hobart will be a top the league..vassar will stink next year...

[bucketsallday]

ill give you that, avitabile is not a "true" big man in the sense grazioli is, but how can you say he cant take over a game when he put up 28 and 14 on grazioli and hobart on saturday? and last year they did not get blown out @ hobart. hobart got out to a big lead, but vassar came all the way back and cut the lead to one, but a couple of bone headed plays cost them. but that game had no bearing on the standings for VC, they were playing STL in the first round of the conference tourney regardless of  the outcome.

and i know basketball too chief. i agree with everything else you said - butterworth IS a streaky shooter, and brazell can be inconsistent, and playing richard williams is like playing a roll of charmin. but brazell does have the ability to take over a game - both offensively and defensively where he may be the best on the bal dfender in the league, and if butterworth is hot, he can carry a team. and vassar is extremely deep this year - they go 9 deep without much of a drop off, which is so important for any team come conference play because teams know each other so well.

i also think that point guard play in general is weak in the conference this year. there is no colby feane in the league year, and i feel like you are discrediting vassars pg's a little. i played with these guys, and holt is not the best shooter but can get in the lane pretty easily which is important when you have a guys that can finish inside and guys that can shoot, but has had health issues his first two years (a bum ankle, mono), and forcella is liek a second coach out there - he knows vassars 'stuff' as well as anyone, and can shoot the lights out - which allows him to get by when he's about four feet tall.

regardless, i think the winner of saturdays game between VC and STL has to be considered the early favorite to earn the auto bid from the LL.

[Chief1101]

agreed...pg is down this year, simpson on hamilton might be the best..he is a quality pg that can fill it up if he has too..

llewellyn on hobart will be an all conference player in a year or two..he can score, he is putting up better numbers than colby feane ever did..

brazell is the wild card for that team..he is the best offensive player on that team, but like i said sometimes he is not all there..if he goes, vassar goes..avitable is always there, always 100% and always reliable..if you add brazell into the equation, thats a formiddable team inside and out...


when i said he cant take over a game, i meant that he cant come down the court cross someover, hit a three or take it right to the rack on a consistent basis..i playeg against avitable as well, hes a great player..but past guys like josh harner, nick jones, the shooting guard from rpi a few years back, they can dominate games with a variety of moves..avitable dominates by rebounding and garbage man plays..hey you cant fault that, he still puts up buckets, but that was my point..

[bucketsallday]

i hear you ... and if lleywynn  ( or however you spell it) is better that feane i look forward to seeing him play. and i think we agree on avitabile. a good comparison - michael beasley from kansas state. same kind of player.