MBB: Liberty League

[buck1053]

I've been thinking about the new additions to the LL for about a week, trying to make sense of it all. Bard's track record shows that they haven't been competitive, and this move is a good one for them, one that may actually help their programs evolve, as they can show they have made a commitment to sports, somewhat, by joining a league with schools that have been competitive in New York state and beyond.

Still though, while it may be a good move for Bard, I don't see that paying dividends for a while, much like how Vassar's programs have developed (to some extent).

With RIT, there is another issue and that's school size.

Here are the enrollment figures for each of the current LL schools (at least according to the numbers up on the D3hoops.com pages for each of them. I don't know if those numbers are the current figures, but I'm guessing they are pretty close to the truth)

Clarkson — 2,579 full-time undergrads
Hamilton — 1,775
Hobart — 1,866
RPI — 5,170
Skidmore — 2,249
St. Lawrence — 2,068
Union — 2,127
Vassar — 2,377

Bard is listed as having 1,544 full-time undergrads, so they certainly fit the school size profile.
Currently, RPI has roughly double (or slightly more than double, in some cases) the amount of students at most of the other Liberty League schools.

R.I.T., however, has 12,731 full-time undergraduate students, more than double what RPI has. It seems like a pretty big disparity and is similar a NYS Class A high school competing against a Class C school.

I also do not understand why the LL took two teams to replace one. I'm sure they needed to add more than one school to make sure more sports would qualify for an automatic bid, but taking two to replace one certainly upsets the balance in basketball, creating a nine-team league, much like what happened with the Empire Eight when they added Stevens. This creates travel problems, scheduling issues and will negatively impact the team or teams left without a travel partner. Bard/Vassar makes sense, and RIT will likely pair with RIT, which also makes sense for the two westernmost teams. Clarkson and St. Lawrence should continue, leaving RPI, Skidmore and Union (all Albany-area teams) as the odd trio. Union and Skidmore have traveled together, so will that remain and RPI becomes the odd man out or will they take turns traveling with each other.

Regardless, there will be some trips where one team will be playing Friday night/Saturday afternoon against partnered teams that will either have a Friday night or Saturday afternoon game, not two games over the weekend.

Just seems like not a lot of thought went into the decision, particularly on the basketball side of things, which is pretty much what I care about. Or, if there was some thought, not enough.

I'd be interested in hearing what others have to say about the situation.

[buck1053]

Also, any word on Clarkson job yet?

That job is still listed as open on the D3 site (as are the soon-to-be LL member Bard, and Hartwick), and I haven't heard anything floating around about any of these positions.

[btlew]

Not sure that the size of a school is as pertinent in college athletics as it is in high school.  In high school, especially at public schools, a larger school gives you that much more of a population pool to pick prospective athletes from.  However, in college, you recruit.

So although RIT may have more students, this only becomes an advantage if they have a significantly higher athletic budget - which I highly doubt is the case.  Given that they have a similar academic footprint as some of the other Liberty League schools ... as well as the common thread of a Division I team that garners the majority of attention on campus, I think their make-up is quite similar to members of this league. 

I do, however, agree that Bard is a reach unless they are ready to start supporting athletics.

[d3lifer]

While school size may not affect your talent pool b/c you recruit your athletes in college it can have a drastic affect on the ease in which institutions can support or provide better committment to athletics facilities, aid, recruiting budgets etc...Now it can be clear what schools make a committment to certain sports there are many schools that commit financial means to their basketball programs that are much smaller than other schools in their conference just that it can be easier for some colleges more than others to support better than others. Now remembering that none of these schools are athletic scholarship schools and that decisions on financial aid are supposed to be based on merit (financial or academic) as it relates to there athletes. Some schools do a better job of packaging their athletes than others thus the debate previously about Alfred being a tough job because of location, but that this is a sleeping giant because it has shown an importance in football through the grapevine heard they want the same committment in basketball.

[UCAAHoops21]

Buck....

great stuff on the enrollment breakdown.  Can't wait to see what the scheduling looks like with the RIT/Bard additions.  Strange that the league goes to the extremes with enrollment numbers in the additions.  Would have thought the schools coming in would be in the ballpark with one another...Never knew RIT was so big, will they add football in the LL?  I have to think RIT comes in competitive right away, interested in seeing what impact this has on RPI & Clarkson-probably all look at some of the same kids in recruiting circles.

Still have to think Bard is stepping up athletic program... I don't know anything about Bard other than their recent record and raptormania's great posts...Have to guess that since they are looking for both a men's & women's hoop coach they are looking to upgrade their programs.  Also, on their website they are looking for assistant athletic directors with different responsibilities.  Seems odd that right after they announce the move they have these openings unless they are making changes to be more competitive.  Maybe raptor can get some scoop on these jobs and who is in the mix...

Clarkson should be a good team next year,can't wait to see what they do for a coach.  Solid core group back and they made the play-offs last year.  Between Clarkson, Bard and Hartwick some interesting jobs out there.

Saw on the news a story about RPI's new football stadium and gym...very impressive.  I am sure football and basketball will get a big recruiting bump out of this.  Lots of changes coming for the LL

minor coaching news with LL interest...RPI assistant coach Rich Gilooly is thought to be leading candidate for head coach at Bishop Maginn High School in Albany.  They won a state title not too long ago and he is a teacher there.  Don't know much about him, but my LL people say good things.  thought this is interesting with all the rpi chatter on this board a few pages back

[hopefan]

Back in the day, RIT was in the same conference as some Libert Leaguers- the old ICAC, in the late 60's and through the 70's, included RIT, RPI, Union, Alfred, Hobart, Ithaca, St.Lawrence, and Clarkson.....   RIT was very competitive in that conference during some of those years  -  in that particular 10 year span, I would guess that RIT, RPI, Union, and St. Lawrence each won conference titles and made the NCAA's--   anybody remember Tracy Gilmore from RIT - mid 70's - good player....

[btlew]

It is actually much more recent than that.  Up until the mid 90s, RIT, Hobart, Clarkson, St. Lawrence and RPI were all members of the Empire Athletic Association together, with I believe Hartwick, Alfred and Ithaca.  I think it was around 1996 or 1997 that they all left to join the Liberty League and then the Empire 8 was born.

RIT can come in and be compete right away.  They always seem to have competitive teams - not great teams, but competitive teams.  They had a good run with the Jones kid in the late 90s ... and have probably been to the NCAAs a handful of times since then.

[buck1053]

It is actually much more recent than that.  Up until the mid 90s, RIT, Hobart, Clarkson, St. Lawrence and RPI were all members of the Empire Athletic Association together, with I believe Hartwick, Alfred and Ithaca.  I think it was around 1996 or 1997 that they all left to join the Liberty League and then the Empire 8 was born.

RIT can come in and be compete right away.  They always seem to have competitive teams - not great teams, but competitive teams.  They had a good run with the Jones kid in the late 90s ... and have probably been to the NCAAs a handful of times since then.

I believe you are right about Hartwick, Alfred and Ithaca being members of the EAA, although the Liberty League was originally the UCAA. I think they changed the name of the league around 2001, after the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks.

[Raptormania!]

This is a breaking urgent super-important news alert by Raptormania!.

As Raptormania! celebrates its tenth anniversary, the outlook for Bard basketball has bever looked brighter. By hiring Raptors legend Adam Turner as head men's basketball coach, the Bard Athletics Department has provided the best tenth anniversary present since Larry David's wife gave him permission to have sex with that dry cleaner played by Gina Gershon on Curb Your Enthusiasm.

Read our complete coverage at:

http://www.raptormania.com

[organizingmom]

What are the predictions/comments about the LL this season...good and bad?

[doubleaz87]

Both SLU & Clarkson should be top teams even tho Clarkson has a new coaching staff. Bard should be an easy win for any team in this conference. RIT might make news early so watch out.

[FROMAFAR]

doubleaz.... RIT won't make news this year in LL....... don't rush us.........we still have some business in E-8......... to take care of.

[Raptormania!]

doubleaz87, I believe I can guarantee that no Liberty League wins will be at Bard's expense in 2009-10.

[organizingmom]

Does anybody know where I can find the webcasting coverage of the LL this season? Last year most of the games were webcasted by Penn Atlantic and there was also Live Stat coverage for most of the games too.
I cannot find either one this season:-(

[Wydown Blvd.]

Your best bet is to contact the SID (sports information director) of the home institution for whatever game you want to watch. You can find their contact information on the schools' respective athletics website.