MBB: Liberty League

[buck1053]

What the hell is happening in the league this year. I am a bit out of the loop this season, but wow. Skidmore absolutely demolishes Union on Tuesday, as magicman and with age noted, and rolls out to a 2-0 league record to continue to show their dominance. Union rebounds with a win over Hamilton by 9.

As it stands now (after Friday night's games), Skidmore, Clarkson and RPI are all 2-0 in the league, Hamilton and Union are both 1-1, and St. Lawrence, Hobart and Vassar are all 0-2. Does anyone have some insight for me, because the way things have gone with LL teams (including their non-conference games) this season are weird.

[magicman]

What the hell is happening in the league this year. I am a bit out of the loop this season, but wow. Skidmore absolutely demolishes Union on Tuesday, as magicman and with age noted, and rolls out to a 2-0 league record to continue to show their dominance. Union rebounds with a win over Hamilton by 9.

As it stands now (after Friday night's games), Skidmore, Clarkson and RPI are all 2-0 in the league, Hamilton and Union are both 1-1, and St. Lawrence, Hobart and Vassar are all 0-2. Does anyone have some insight for me, because the way things have gone with LL teams (including their non-conference games) this season are weird.

buck,
Not sure where you looked to come up with those conference records, but Clarkson, RPI, St. Lawrence and Vassar have only played 1 conference game so far.

[buck1053]

Ah, magicman, my bad. I just quickly looked and assumed that none of last night's games had been factored into the standings on the LL page on D3hoops, which is where I came up with that. You are right, only Hamilton, Hobart, Skidmore and Union have played their travel partners so far, so they are the only ones with two games played in the league.

[magicman]

Clarkson defeats visiting RPI 71-64 to move into sole possession of 2nd place in the Liberty League. Clarkson is now 2-0 in league play and trails Skidmore by a half game. Skidmore, who improved to 3-0 today with a 74-58 win over Hamilton, is the only other team with no conference losses. Thoroughbreds have now disposed of Union, Hobart, and Hamilton, in that order, by double digit wins. Ponies now looking like the team to beat. Both Clarkson and Skidmore are now off until next Friday when the Golden Knights travel to Saratoga for a matchup to determine early league supremecy.

Clarkson upped their overall record to 8-4 today and were led by a pair of players with double-doubles. Elson Pickering with 14 pts and 11 rebounds, got plenty of help from Jonathan Hood's 10 pt, 12 rebound effort. Brandon Linton with solid all around play had 13 pts, 6 assists, 5 rebounds, and 3 steals. Felix Llanos chipped in with 10 pts and George Koduah just missed the team's 3rd double-double with 9 pts and 9 boards. RPI's Eric Anderson was the only Engineer in double figures with 10 pts.   

Close 1st half with several lead changes Clarkson gained 28-22 advantage late but RPI closed to within 3 to trail 28-25 at the break. Clarkson opened up the 2nd with an 8-0 run and went up by 15 to maintain a double digit lead for much of the period. RPI finally got it under 10 with 3:12 left to play, closed to within 4 in the waning seconds but the Knights hit their free throws to close them out.

[magicman]

Host St. Lawrence downs Vassar 72-52 to claim their 1st league win and now stand at 1-1. Vassar now in lonely cellar at 0-2.

Up and down Union goes down again, this time to visiting Hobart 64-50. Both teams are now 1-2 in league play.

[with age came?]

Buck I agree this league is totally wide open.  The only team that may have a rough season is Vassar and its still early.  One thing is for certain I don't think we will see gaudy 12-2 conference records from St Lawrence and Hamilton this year unless they go on some monstrous streaks.  I have a feeling we could have a lot of teams still in the hunt for the playoffs deep into season. Next weeks games at Saratoga with Clarkson and SLU coming to town will be very interesting.

[magicman]

Updated Pool C rankings of the East Region from the Pool C board on the Multi-Regional Topics page.
Includes all games through 1-17-10.
Reg #       wp       owp      oowp    RPI     Nat.  Pool        Region  OVR  Conf.     Team
E   001   0.800   0.609   0.534   0.6380   011   C   005     8-2    12-2   UAA      Rochester
E   002   0.846   0.584   0.531   0.6364   012   A   C      11-2    12-2   SUNYAC   Oneonta State
E   003   0.786   0.531   0.561   0.6023   031   A   C      11-3    12-3   E8       St. John Fisher
E   004   0.714   0.546   0.576   0.5955   038   C   020    10-4    11-5   E8       Nazareth
E   005   0.625   0.625   0.503   0.5946   040   C   021     5-3     8-4   SUNYAC   Brockport State
E   006   0.692   0.565   0.555   0.5942   041   C   022     9-4    10-4   UAA      New York University
E   007   0.750   0.551   0.520   0.5927   043   C   024     9-3    12-4   E8       Ithaca
E   008   0.636   0.620   0.484   0.5904   045   C   025     7-4     8-5   SUNYAC   Plattsburgh State

With no Liberty League team appearing on this list it is certain that only the Conference Tournament winner will go to the NCAA's this year.

[with age came?]

Magic I agree with everything in your statement except the word "certain".  If by some miracle my Knights ever learn to pay a consistent game and quit going 5-28 for 3 point land, run the table in the league, end up at 21-4 (I don't think d-1 game vs Cornell counts???) and then lose in the championship game of the Liberty League tourney, they may get a bid with their U of R win.  If Skidmore hastens my predictions (that they would be a serious contender next year) and instead runs the table, ends up 14-0 in the league and then loses the in the Liberty League Championship - I could see the possibility of a pool c bid.  The only other team that has a shot at that kind of bid would be the same scenario for RPI.  All this mumbo jumbo means - yes very unlikely anybody goes to the dance but tournament champs but not yet quite certain.  SUNYAC is tough and there may be some losses handed out in that league to the leaders. UAA is always crazy tough and I do not think that U of R will stay on top nor that NYU will be there at the end of the season.  The only team that I think I would call the closest to a "shoe in" is St John Fisher.  Think they are the class of the e-8 and will be there in the end.

[magicman]

with age,
I was pretty sure when I said that "it is certain" phrase I'd get some feedback from you about it. And I don't disagree with what you said, but I don't think Clarkson or Skidmore will run the table in the LL this year. If they do then yeah, they're right back in it but the East Region will get at the most 2 Pool C bids this year and if the regional leaders get upset in their tournament it'll be slim pickings for a 2nd team in any of the other conferences to get in. It's still too early to even know who the regional leaders will be 5 or 6 weeks down the road. Plattsburgh St. went from 1st to 8th in the proverbial blink of an eye. The possibility also exists that NO East Region team will get an at large bid.

As good as that U of R win looks for Clarkson, the Elmira loss looks just as bad and I'm guessing the Oswego loss won't look great by the end of the year either. And I just noticed that visiting SLU took down the Knights Tuesday evening 53-48. That hurts. Brandon Linton for Clarkson and Garrett Sharlow for SLU each went 0-8 for 0 points. WOW!! I don't think a SUNYAC team will get an at large bid either except possibly Oneonta St. But as you said the league is tough and I'll be surprised if the regular season winner has less than 4 losses.
Skidmore already has a bad loss (Johnson St.), and 2 others that don't look very good. RPI probably has the best Regional record of any LL team right now as none of their losses would be considered a bad loss. It'll be a waiting game to see if any East Region teams can put together some kind of run. St. John Fisher had a great opportunity to move into the rankings this past week but blew it with the loss to Rochester in the finals of the Wendy's Classic on Saturday. Now U of R is on the cusp of cracking the Top 25 but will have to get by Brandeis on the road on Friday. Don't think that's gonna happen. No one else in the East has merited any Top 25 support this year so far. Oneonta St. with a win over #21 William Paterson might get a mention if they continue to rack up the W's but I won't be rooting for them on the 29th when they come to Plattsburgh.    

[WNYHoops]

I've been away for some time, but I want to chime into the regional ranking and possible Pool C consideration from the East Region. U of R and Fisher are always getting the publicity. Ithaca last year and Brockport and Plattsburgh in the past too have represented the East well. But I want folks to begin to take notice of schools from the "lesser" leagues in NYS that can play with all the big boys this year. More specifically Wells and SUNY IT from the NEAC and Medaille from the AMCC.

All are East Region members and should be in the discussion for top teams in the region. SUNYIT went to the NCAA's last year and nearly reached the Sweet 16. They return nearly everyone from that team and have one of the top players in the region in Dave Golembiowski. Wells is super athletic with a number of big-time players. They have beaten SUNY IT and will be a good bet to play them again in  the NEAC finals for the league's AQ.

Medaille has very quietly slipped into the Top 25 national ranking, yet get no notice on these boards. Their conference is not real strong, but they do have wins over then 9th ranked John Carroll on the road and an always tough Penn State Behrend. This is another team coming off an NCAA papearance last year nad are loaded with veteran players who understand their roles. If you are not convinced, just ask the St. John Fisher players who scrimmaged them in the early season. I have heard the MAvs had their way with the Cardinals. Keep an eye on all three of these teams heading into Feb.

[Ethelred the Unready]

I've been away for some time, but I want to chime into the regional ranking and possible Pool C consideration from the East Region. U of R and Fisher are always getting the publicity. Ithaca last year and Brockport and Plattsburgh in the past too have represented the East well. But I want folks to begin to take notice of schools from the "lesser" leagues in NYS that can play with all the big boys this year. More specifically Wells and SUNY IT from the NEAC and Medaille from the AMCC.

All are East Region members and should be in the discussion for top teams in the region. SUNYIT went to the NCAA's last year and nearly reached the Sweet 16. They return nearly everyone from that team and have one of the top players in the region in Dave Golembiowski. Wells is super athletic with a number of big-time players. They have beaten SUNY IT and will be a good bet to play them again in  the NEAC finals for the league's AQ.

Medaille has very quietly slipped into the Top 25 national ranking, yet get no notice on these boards. Their conference is not real strong, but they do have wins over then 9th ranked John Carroll on the road and an always tough Penn State Behrend. This is another team coming off an NCAA papearance last year nad are loaded with veteran players who understand their roles. If you are not convinced, just ask the St. John Fisher players who scrimmaged them in the early season. I have heard the MAvs had their way with the Cardinals. Keep an eye on all three of these teams heading into Feb.

Medaille is getting plenty of respect nationally. hanging in the DIII top 25 and coming in at 66 in the Massey Ratings.  And while the JCU win is a little tarnished, it wasn't at the time.  They are similar to UR in that most of their games are out of region, but I don't think that hurts them too much.  But I could be wrong

Massey has Wells at 205 - pretty much middle of the pack - and SUNYIT at 231.  Their conference is ranked last in the country by Massey.

The reason UR and Fisher "get all the publicity" is because they have been where these schools would like to some day be. 

In all honesty, I don't think you can expect a lot of AMCC or NEAC conference chatter on the E8, SUNY or Liberty League boards, until they start playing some of those schools

[with age came?]

WNY Hoops I agree that Medaille deserves respect. MacDonold is a very good coach (former d-1 coach at Canisius in Buffalo) and enjoyed some real success there in years past.  He will be an excellent recruiter in WNY and will get more than his share of local talent. In many respects their game against Colgate says a lot about them.  Anytime a d-3 school can stay that close to a d-1 school that is something.  Colgate while not great is not terrible either (ala New Jersey Institute of Tech).  Wells I know nothing about & the same goes for SUNYIT (except that Golembiowski is the "real deal"!) But that being said I always root for the upstate schools!

P.S. Magic baits me into a comment with his "it is certain" comment - you little devil you!!!   Agree with you that RPI probably has the best regional for the LL.  Personally I fully expect that a LL team will be in the rankings by the end of the season, but most likely only the league champion goes to the dance.  I don't see a repeat of SLU circumstances last year this year as a pool c bid for the championship loser. Pool bids to 6+ loss teams in the east are pretty rare I believe.

[magicman]

WNYHoops,

I had written up a detailed response this afternoon to your post about Medaille, SUNYIT and Wells and was about 2 sentences from posting it when my computer crashed and I lost the entire post. So I'll try again.
Briefly, I agree that Medaille is a decent team and the reason I didn't mention them in my previous post is I was responding to "with age" and we were basically talking about the Liberty League, SUNYAC, and the E8, along with Rochester  because those were the teams that were ranked in the East Region rankings from the Pool C board at the time. I have Medaille at #23 in the Posters' Poll which I participate in and have been following them all year. Back on Dec. 30th when they beat John Carroll one of the regular posters on D3 Hoops asked me for some info on the team since he knew I was in NY State and I gave a detailed rundown of the team on the Top 25 board. The next D3Hoops poll that came out had Medaille going from 0 votes in week 4 right into the #21 spot in week 5 with 123 votes. After climbing up to #19  the next week they have since slid to the #24 spot after their loss to Pitt-Bradford. Medaille is tied with the 2nd best win percentage in the country but their strength of schedule is the lowest of the East teams that are currently ranked in the Pool C rankings. New unofficial Pool C ranking were posted on Wed. night on the Pool C board and Medaille is currently in 7th place in the East, and 44th nationally. There are only 19 Pool C bids available so they have a ways to go to be in contention for one. The voters in the Top 25 will probably drop them out of the poll should they suffer another loss because of their SOS. And as Ethelred stated that win against John Carroll doesn't look nearly as good now as it did back on Dec. 30th. If Medaille loses another couple of regular season games and doesn't win the conference tournament I don't think they'll get a Pool C bid. Playing in a conference that is ranked 42nd out of 51 is tough to overcome when the other conferences in your region are ranked 19 to 39 places higher. The NCAA will come out with their regional rankings in a couple of weeks and it will be interesting to see where Medaille is ranked, but they have a lot of teams they'll have to climb over.
SUNYIT and Wells as Ethelred pointed out play in the lowest ranked league in the country and both teams have already lost too many games to have a chance at a Pool C. While SUNYIT has beaten teams in the E8, LL, and SUNYAC, they haven't beaten any of the better teams in those leagues and the loss by Wells to Morrisville St. is a killer. I've followed SUNYIT for the past few years as I saw Golembiowski and Diloo Brown (both excellent players) play against Plattsburgh St 2 years ago.
It's also too bad there isn't an AMCC board where fans of those teams can talk up their schools. I went to the board for the NEAC conference and I posted on it a few times but not much chatter there either.  

Hopefully, Medaille and SUNYIT both win their conference tournament because they are the best teams, without a doubt, in my opinion, and the Pool C bid becomes a non-issue for them. As with age said "always root for the upstate schools."    

[WNYHoops]

With age and Magicman, great stuff and thanks.

I guess the point I was trying to make is while I realize this is the LL board, and most people think of Eastern Region basketball being LL, SUNYAC and Empire 8 along with the U of R ... there are a couple other teams in the region who I feel can play with any of the teams from those more "respected" conferences.

Put Medaille and SUNYIT in any conference in the state and I believe they would be in the top 2 or 3 and definitely have a shot at winning a title. The fact they play in lesser leagues hurts their reputation and skews their SOS. But schools from the "upper" leagues will not even schedule them for fear of taking a loss (and if they do get a shot it will normally be on the road).

Don't sell these teams short and they should be in the discussion when talking about the best teams in the Eastern Region. While I agree neither will get Pool C consideration should they loose in their conference tournament (although if Medaille wins out until the post-season they will have a very good ranking by the NCAA regional committee) they both have the ability to win a game or two in the NCAA's if they get the right match-up.

[magicman]

With age and Magicman, great stuff and thanks.

I guess the point I was trying to make is while I realize this is the LL board, and most people think of Eastern Region basketball being LL, SUNYAC and Empire 8 along with the U of R ... there are a couple other teams in the region who I feel can play with any of the teams from those more "respected" conferences.

Put Medaille and SUNYIT in any conference in the state and I believe they would be in the top 2 or 3 and definitely have a shot at winning a title. The fact they play in lesser leagues hurts their reputation and skews their SOS. But schools from the "upper" leagues will not even schedule them for fear of taking a loss (and if they do get a shot it will normally be on the road).

Don't sell these teams short and they should be in the discussion when talking about the best teams in the Eastern Region. While I agree neither will get Pool C consideration should they loose in their conference tournament (although if Medaille wins out until the post-season they will have a very good ranking by the NCAA regional committee) they both have the ability to win a game or two in the NCAA's if they get the right match-up.

WNYHoops,
I'll agree with you that Medaille would be competitive in the other conferences, but I think SUNYIT would be in the middle of the pack in their old conference this year. Not sure what you mean by saying schools won't schedule them and if they do it's usually on the road. SUNYIT played 3 schools from the SUNYAC, 2 games against the E8, and 2 schools from the LL. That's 7 out of 9 non-conference games against schools from the "upper leagues". 4 were at home 2 on the road and the Oneonta game was a neutral site. Wells played 2 schools from the E8 and 2 from the LL, 2 at home, 2 on the road. Medaille played and hosted Geneseo St. You can only play just so many games out of conference. Oneonta and Cortland beat SUNYIT by 21 and 17 and pretty sure 3 or 4 other SUNYAC schools would beat them as well. As I said before I think all 3 teams are decent, hope Medaille and SUNYIT win their conference, and go to the NCAA's and do some damage.