MBB: Liberty League

[Red1]

Does anyone know if those 3pt. numbers were records of any kind?

19 three's in a half (total)
12 three's in a half by a team (Hamilton)
32 three's in a game (total)
19 three's in a game by a team (Hamilton)

Cheers,
Red1

[Red1]

Never mind, I answered my own question.  They're not even close to records.  I forgot about the Grinnell system.  They've made more than double what Hamilton and Union did.

[thumbsup]

No shots at anyone.  I still believe St. Lawrence would have got after it more defensively than Union did.  This league has been pretty much the same thing the last 6 years.  Even when Murph was at Hamilton, it wasn't a stellar conference at all in the 2000's.  Murph left the cupboard in great shape, welchons, peck, tk, etc.  but I don't remember too many of those teams putting on performances like this years group, post 2000.  Not a shot at Murph here at all, just trying to give some credit to a staff who at this point should get a first round home game in the NCAA's.  No shots at anyone, all is good.

[ucaafan]

Congrats to Hamilton who are the deepest team I have seen in d-III in a long time. Arguably their top ten players could start for any of the LL teams. To RJCarter, agree with you about the Union PG, Murphy, should have been at least second team. Four years running led league in assists/TO, either 1st or 2nd all four years in assists and not even an Honorable Mention is an insult. A true pass first PG rarely is recognized for these honors, points seem to be all that counts. Was last year's team MVP. Recently named All-Academic LL.

[shooters]

Ok i was at the conference tourney this weekend and I have some serious issues with a lot of what has been said on this site regarding coaching. I watched 30 minutes of zone defense by Union in the championship game while Hamilton sat out there and shot pretty much wide open threes. Those folks on this site that think Montana is a great coach I question your knowledge. I would love to hear from Unionalum, because there has to be an explanation here as to why they didn't mix up their defense. They went man for a bit but it was well after Hamilton was leading by 25 plus points. I think many who have posted saying it would be hard for any team to beat Hamilton when they shot 60% from the field, let alone from 3 pt. land, didn't see the looks Hamilton was getting. Most of those 3s were with no defender within 5 ft of them. Hamilton could have won by 60 with the defense Union played, lucky for Union they started subbing in mop up players w/ 7 minutes to go. Union does have some serious shooters themselves but I would agree the POY selection after watching all games this weekend.

[unionalum]

Alright, not being at the game makes it a little more difficult for me to respond.  With the quality of the broadcast, I was not informed if Union was mixing up their defenses or not. 

Before I address the weakness of the zone two things:
1) Montana has used this zone effectively enough to take his teams to 2 of the past 5 NCAA's
2) Not many teams would shoot 19-31 in an empty gym by themselves

Union's primary zone defense is a rotating box around the "5" or center.
It has its holes, and quick perimeter ball movement, mixed in with a few skip passes, can easily get you aan open 3 pointer
Also, I dont know if Hamilton was doing this but a pass to the high post, and a kick out, also creates wide open three's

Montana coached teams are usually not known for their defense or rebounding.  What makes them successful is their ability to shoot and smart players that don't turn it over.

We saw on Saturday that went Murphy went down, Mackey couldn't handle the ball.  The two backup point guards (one freshman and one sophomore) did not develop enough to earn Montana's trust and so he was forced to use Mackey.

And to you guys defending Murphy, you couldnt be more right.  his stats, turnover/assist ratio and total assist speak for themselves, but he also hit about 3 or 4 buzzer beaters in his career, including the Liberty League semis last year to defeat Hobart.  He goes unnoticed for the most part, but when he's not there is when you truly notice him.

[shooters]

I appreciate the response unionalum, i'm not trying to get on union, just wanted an explanation, I mean people all over the stands were questioning the coaching moves. I did take special attention to Hamilton's coach and he seemed to be totally involved and coaching the game. Those who questioned the subbing pattern must not have seen Hamilton play before because they really do go about 10 deep w/o missing a beat. They have a backup point guard who is really good and this guy down low, Wood, can play for a freshman. Someone awhile ago stated that Anderson should play Giorgi and TK more and not favor "his" players. Well I noticed TK got all the time he needed and Giorgi didn't play much but looked out of place on the floor. If you watch Hamilton I noticed that most of the players look to the coach and tell him when they want out, its not the coach pulling the players. If you haven't watched Hamilton play, whether you agree or disagree w/ the subbing patterns and style it sure is fun to watch. The players seem to really enjoy it too, of course hitting everything they put up helps in the "fun" department. Good look in the ECAC unionalum, I'll be pulling for them. On a side note i noticed Union didn't stay around for their second place award like other teams normally do, it seemed kind of well, i don't want to say "classless" but definitely worth noting.

[unionalum]

I don't know Tobin's coaching style as well as some of you guys who have seen them play many times, but it's easy to sub when you're up 20-30 pts... in a close game it is much harder for a coach to make subbing moves.

Also, just asked one of the guys if they stayed... he said no, and said he didn't even know there was one.  (they came in second before, so I dont know how to take this response)... I don't know why they didn't stay, seems unusual.

Some of the guys on the team are some of the more competitive people I have ever met, and they were just in disbelief after the game of what happened.  Wasn't even an upset tone from some of the guys or for that matter even Montana... more like, on somedays there is nothing you can do. 

[bed]

Shooters:

I think some of your comments were directed at me, because I was one of the people who questioned:  1) coach anderson; 2) his substitution patterns; and 3) other issues regarding the team and his relationship with the players.

I also know that we will never agree on another topic:  you have issues with former Hamilton Coach Tom Murphy (now at SUNY-IT), while I believe (as do most other coaches around the country) that Coach Murphy is one of the greatest coaches in D3 history.  And you are entitled to your opinion and you have said you have your reasons, and I respect your position.  

We also disagree about Coach Anderson.  I don't think much of him, while you like to sing his praises.  You sound like one of his ex-assistant coaches!!  And we can agree to disagree on Coach Anderson as well.   You're never going to care for Coach Murphy, and it will take me a while to come around on Coach Anderson.

We do agree on some things though:  1) I can't for the life of me figure out why anyone would ever run a zone defense (including a matchup, 1-3-1, 2-3, etc.) on this Hamilton team.  On top of that, once Montana saw it wasn't working, why not make an adjustment?  On Saturday afternoon, I'm not sure any defense would've stop Hamilton's ridiculously good shooting.  They looked the best they have all season.........2) Giorgi did look a bit out of step out there.  My sources tell me that Coach Anderson thinks he's still too slow (feet arent quick enough out there), but I disagree.  He didnt' play at all in the 2nd half on Friday and played only 14 minutes on Saturday.  I think he's just out of step, b/c he has been out there consistently enough.  Please don't question his talent, as when Coach Anderson has given him minutes, he's put up big numbers this season.

On another point you raised:  Coach Anderson (and I give him credit for this) has stopped subbing in 4 guys at a time.  He made adjustments.  I respect that.  He also decided to play TK----you are correct on that point.  However, earlier in ths season, he wasn't consistently playing TK, which I can tell you was baffling to other teams and fans alike.

I know you like Nick Jones (he's a former Clarkson guy), but there's no way he's as good as TK.  I know you won't agree with me on this point.  I don't think making the 1st or 2nd All-LL team is the be all and end all.  Both are great players, but I think TK is better.  If he played on RPI or other teams in the league and got consistent minutes all year, he could've been player of the year.

Finally, I can tell you that some of Anderson's players still don't like him or trust him (despite what it may appear to you by watching the games).  Everyone wants to win, so they'll work with him to win, but that doesn't mean they like Coach Anderson.

[bed]

Unionalum:

I would be curious (when you get a chance) to ask some of those Union guys who they think are the best players on Hamilton.  Do they fear Nick Jones more or TK?

To me, Welchons and TK are the two best players on Hamilton.  Jones is one of the softest big guys I've seen.

[unionalum]

I will ask them... but I know for a fact it would be unanimous... Welchons... dropped 38 in last year's Liberty League final, 30 in this one... but I'll find out

[bed]

Unionalum,

I think Welchons is a tremendous all around player.  He can shoot, drive, etc.

The reason I brought it up was b/c of some on this site posting about how good Nick Jones is..........I mean he's a good player.  But in my mind, Welchons and TK are the best players on the team.

I just don't view Jones as the explosive threat that I see out of Welchons and TK.  Curious to know what the Union players feel regarding TK vs. Jones.

[unionalum]

Just spoke with 3 of Union's elder statesmen (3 seniors)

1. Welchons  2. TK   3.  Jones

1. Welchons  2.  TK  3. Jones  4. Peck/Valenti

1.  Welchons  2. TK  3. Jones  4. Valenti

[bed]

Thanks for the info............that's what I would have ranked them too.  Glad to hear the actual players feel the same way.

Even funnier------is that Coach Anderson (on various occassions this season) has told Welchons---------this IS NO JOKE------------Anderson told Welchons to stop shooting so much.   He wanted Welchons to shoot less.

Funny stuff from Tobin.  He's a piece of work.  No wonder the only players that like him are the two guys from Clarkson:  Jones and Valenti.

[unionalum]

I have a very good friend who graduated from hamilton last year who has confirmed much of what you have said