MBB: Liberty League

[UCAAHoops21]

So LL teams are done for the season. 
Some offseason things to look at:
Can Union find guys to take over for Murphy, Scordato and Caginello?
Will Skidmore and Clarkson get any better?
How does RPI replace Schneider and its starting five?
What will Hamilton look like?
How much better will SLU get?
Who gets the Hobart job?

Of course there are many other questions, but I think all of these have a direct impact on how the league looks next year.  Does anyone think there will be more coaching openings?  Transfers? 
I am sure the Hobart job will get lots of attention, but does anyone think any LL coaches or assistants will get a look?
Anyone else have any thoughts or questions I may have missed?

[rjcarter8]

In reference to UCAA's offseason stuff:

While Scordato and Caginello provided the scoring punch Union needed, I think they will be the most easily replaced of the three. Don't get me wrong, I don't think any players will be able to step in and replace these two right off the bat, but Union has had a knack for finding shooters.

As for Murphy, he will be the most difficult to replace. Part of Union's downfall in their last two games of the season — aside from Hamilton and Ithaca both shooting over 60 percent for the game, and Hamilton knocking down 19 3's — was when Murphy gt into foul trouble. They don't seem to have anyone who is as confident a point guard as Murphy.

Skidmore has been down toward the bottom of the league for a couple years now, or at least it seems that way, and I don't expect them to climb into contention next season.

Clarkson seems to be below Vassar these days, and Vassar should be better than Clarkson next season as well. Of course, when you're playing at Clarkson you always have the sixth man — the referees — to contend with.

Hamilton will reload to replace its graduates, the school never seems to get too down, and the trend will continue because Anderson can get kids to his school.

I actually expect St. Lawrence to be one of the top teams, at least the top 2, if not the top team in the league next season. They have some really good freshmen, an ability to control the inside and some shooting ability.

Overall, the LL was a pretty senior-laden league, at least as far as the top teams went, and next season should future a much younger group of talent. It should be interesting to see what happens in the offseason.

[shooters]

I would agree with most of what was said about the offseason. My concern is that if the LL was senior packed this year and lets all be honest it wasn't much of a conference this year will it be worse than this year? I think SLU will be a tough team next year but they lose their good point guard. I think the rest of the breakdowns on the teams are accurate. Someone mentioned Clarkson, my question is how much longer do they go w/ that coach? A few years back that program was respectable and it seemed to find the cellar quite quickly. Granted this new guy needs a couple of years of recruits but I find it very interesting that a team can go that far down in only a few years. As for Hamilton I think they will miss Peck more than anyone is willing to admit. They already have a good point guard in Rogers for next year along w/ i'm sure some recruits at the guard position. I wonder who will take the lead for next year's team, Jones or TK? Seems like neither one really wants to take their game up a notch consistantly. Both have the talent, no questions there. Should be an interesting offseason. If i have any news i will be sure to post accordingly.

[casey]

I usually do not post, but I do follow the posts regularly and I wanted to point out a few things about Skidmore. 

UCAAHoops21 asks "Will Skidmore and Clarkson get any better?" and rjcarter8 states "Skidmore has been down toward the bottom of the league for a couple years now, or at least it seems that way, and I don't expect them to climb into contention next season." 

The 2004 and 2005 seasons were very successful for Skidmore College and as cliché as it may sound, 2006 was a "rebuilding" year that did have positive moments for individual players that will be built upon for next season. 

So I would have to answer "Yes, Skidmore can get better."  And Skidmore has not been down toward the bottom of the league for a couple of years now and stranger things have happened – so Skidmore might just "climb into contention  next season." 

Here are the highlights from a few past seasons:

2004 Season
For the first time ever, the Thoroughbreds swept UCAA champion Hamilton College, besting the Continentals in Clinton, 86-83 in overtime, and again at Skidmore, 78-64. Skidmore also swept Hobart and Vassar.

Dana Martin '05 was chosen UCAA Player of the Week three times and ECAC Upstate Player of the Week twice.

ECAC Upstate New York Tournament advanced to the semifinals.

Overall record ..... ...........16-10 (Conference 7-7)


2005 Season – Sweeps of Clarkson and RPI during the regular season.

Second seed in the Liberty League Tournament (second seed), and advanced to the ECAC Upstate NY semifinals for the second straight year.

Ranked regionally throughout the season.

Dana Martin named to the first team, and player of the year.  Had 3 players named honorable mention.

Dana Martin name to ECAC Division III Upstate First Team

Graduated 7 seniors (5 were starters)

Overall Record ...........16-10 (Conference 9-5)


2006 Season –
A "rebuilding" year – a team that started out the season with 10 new players, including 7 incoming freshman (including two who did not play this season due to injuries pre-season) and only 4 returning players (2 sophomores and 2 seniors) who saw limited playing time from the 2005 season.  Skidmore is a team that will continue to strengthen and definitely build during the off season.  And time will tell what the incoming freshman for the 2006-2007 season will bring. 

Overall Record...........   (4-20)   

[bed]

casey,

what about culkin?  the guy was a legend at skidmore.

[bed]

Hamilton will be dominant yet again next year DURING THE REGULAR SEASON.

There is no one that can compete with them---though St. Lawrence will finish second.

Hamilton, as others have pointed out, have the PLAYER OF THE YEAR in TK.

He will be a force next year---probably averaging a double-double based on the minutes he will see and another year in Anderson's system.  With Nick Jones back and a few others who have matured on the roster, I look for another 18-20 wins from Hamilton.

However, that won't mean anything, if they don't play tougher non-conference opposition during the year.  As I've pointed out 20 times on here, they lost to a subpar Utica College team and a subpar Williams College team.

Yes, I know Utica is still in the tourney, but they are a joke.  St. John Fisher is also nothing compared to the NESCAC teams.  Hamilton needs to get back to the days when they played tough, NESCAC games (even if only 4 or so) against maybe a combination of Tufts, Trinity, Amherst, Williams, among others.

[CCsalive]

Bed-nice post. You write, "sub par" Utica College. Are they? I'd like to hear from someone that saw the Hamilton v. Utica College game. Is Utica College better than Hamilton this year? That program is on the rise and Hamilton is in a vulnerable position when you also consider Coach Murph's presence at Suny-IT...I don't think Tobin would be pleased to lose both of those games next year...what used to be courtesy games for Hamilton.

Ironic that TK is getting lots of love of late. In my opinion, it is long overdue...did I tell you guys about the rim-rocking lefty "And-one" dunk his frosh year? Just kidding. Hamilton could use a big man in the Murphy mold of Schantz, Shmiegal, Finley, Smith, Smith, Nelson, Grimmer, etc!!!!!!!!!

[Ulf_Tornstrom]

I agree with CC.  It's about time the Pioneers got some respect. 

Utica is not a joke. Ray Bryant is better than anyone on that Hill these days.  With the loss of Welchons and Peck, Hamilton might be the 3rd best team in the area next year. 

CC also has a very good point about the state of affairs in Clinton.  One of the best things Coach Murphy was able to do was develop players.  In fact, I believe he developed the most D3 All-Americans in history.   There might be better athletes on the Hill now, but what has your boy Tobin developed the past two years? 

Hamilton's strength of schedule was not there this season and it showed against Amherst.  In the past, Hamilton would play Amherst in the regular season.  Now they play Tobin's alma mater Wesleyan, who might have been the WORST team in New England this season.  Teams Hamilton used to play every year like Amherst, Rochester, Tufts have been taken off the Conts schedule in place of Medaille (4-21), Wesleyan (6-17), and Washington (13-14).  It might get a few early W's, but it doesn't exactly prepare the team for the post-season. 

Utica might not have the history of Hamilton, but they certainly have the local support these days. 

Go Pioneers!

[bed]

Ulf......

whoa......buddy.........tobin is not my boy......by any stretch.  i dont like him.  read about 3/4 of my posts and you will see that much.

i agree with you.  tobin didnt have a strong strength of schedule this season and u are correct.  it showed against amherst.  that's why i said hamilton needs to stop playing teams like middlebury and wesleyan and take on real teams in the nescac even if they go 1-3 for the season against them.

utica is not a great team though.  gotta disagree with you there.  and if you think anyone on utica is better than TK, you are nuts.  TK is a phenomenal talent who would have been player of the year had Murphy still been coaching at Hamilton.  Fisher isnt anything special either.  Utica might give them a game, but both of those teams suffer from the same problem as hamilton-----weak conference schedule and crappy regular season games against sub-par opposition.

but i agree with ulf----as ive said before---tobin isnt a big time coach.  yes, he might have been above average at clarkson, but you are in the major leagues now coach.  you are at hamilton.  you replaced murphy----now try and win like coach murphy.

[bed]

CC,

as you a former hamiltonian..........you know how great murphy was and what he meant to the school, the community, and the people.

it's a shame the school treated him in such a manner.  The funniest thing about Hamilton these days is that most former players would root for SUNY-IT against Hamilton b/c of Murphy.

Murphy was the master of the big guys and the All-Americans.  Teke a look at how many former Murphy players and assistant coaches are head coaches or assistant coaches in college basketball today.  Says a lot about Coach Murphy.

Also, take a look at how successful many of Murphy's former players are in the professional world.  That says even more about Murphy.

[thumbsup]

Here we go again.  Hamilton, the "big leagues".  How many final fours have they been in??  Rochester, now that is the big leagues.  Hamilton has been an above average team in a below average region for the past 15 years.  Big leagues, what a joke.  And don't even start about this professional world stuff.  Why in the hell would someone pay 35000 g's a year to attend Hamilton and become a basketball coach??  But wait, Murph never got any "favors" there, nothing compared to Tobin.  His kids at Clarkson do become professionals, engineers, business leaders, etc. because they didn't get a full ride to attend a d3 school.  They actually had other goals in their educational life.  As for Utica, once again, nice season, ONE SEASON, in a down region.  Good wins, do it for another 10 years and we'll talk.  Cazenovia made the tournament too a couple of years ago.  Granted, this Utica team is better but come on with this.  BTW, TK is a great player, too bad not every night.  Seen way to many games, even with Murph, when he wasn't a factor, especially on D.  Big leagues, WOW.

[Ulf_Tornstrom]

Thumbs Up:  You haven't seen enough games with statements like these.

As the old man in Utica, I have to say you are way off as far as Hamilton basketball goes.  For years I watched in horror as my Pioneers fell time in and time out to the Continentals.  Even when UC went Division I with the legendary NBA Hall-of-Fame coach/player Larry Costello, much to my dismay, Hamilton still upended them.  How many Hamilton teams were ranked #1 in the country or beat the #1 ranked team in the country handily, only to never get a chance to go to the NCAA tournament due to NESCAC rules and regulations that prevented them from doing so? 

Potsdam, North Park, Rochester, Scranton are just a few of the National Champs that Hamilton beat in those days.  Give Jerry Welsh, Mike Neer,  and Bill Bessoir a call if you need specific statistics! Us old foggies remember.  Coach Murphy's best teams were from 1976-1996, and the list of National Champs that fell by the wayside on that Hill is longer than the road to Upsala.   Hamilton wasn't afraid to play anyone and that's why they got better every year.  Just give a call over to Colgate, who I believe Hamilton beat 9 out of the last 11 times the schools met.  Hamilton was the big time, and still could be.  Heck, now they actually can play for something.  Back in the day, Cedric Oliver simply laced them up for pride.  And outside of Ulf Tornstrom, he might have had the best pull-up jumper this side of Utica!  Still haven't seen a D3 or even D2 player that could go like Oliver did back then. 

And by the way, one year?  From what I can tell, Ray Bryant has another game against Hamilton.  And its in Utica.  Could be a long night.  Then again, its nice to see the rivalry back up and running.   Long live UCPB.   Go Pioneers!

Clarkson is a safety school for kids that go to Utica, so GIVE US A BREAK.  I'd bet my last dollar that there are more professionals out of Utica's basketball program than in Clarkson's entire athletic department!!!  What a joke.

Lastly, I'll leave you with a little D3 trivia. Rochester made it to the 1991 Elite 8, before losing to eventual National Runner-Up F&M by 3.  I was at the Hamilton/Rochester game that year.  Hamilton beat them by like 30 that night.  I say like 30, because with about 4 minutes left I went for a cold Matts at Alteri's with a side of sausage and peppers pizza. 

[bamm]

Ulf... nice post.  I enjoyed the history lesson.  Only one complaint --

Clarkson is a safety school for kids that go to Utica, so GIVE US A BREAK. 

That couldn't be further from the truth.  Clarkson's engineering programs are well-respected and UC doesn't even offer a single engineering major.  They are different schools. 

[thebear]

Ulf - One Other Oops

Murphy's lifetime record against Jerry Welsh was 1-4.

In '76-77 when Hamilton was ranked #1 in the country, their two losses were both to Potsdam, the second coming at UC in the ECAC finals. 

Oneonta, a team Potsdam had beaten at Oneonta during the regular season, went to the final four, as there was a three way tie at the top of the SUNYAC, and the committee would only give the league two bids.

Murph's only victory was in '81-82, when Welsh, in probably his greatest coaching job regrouped and took a 17-9 team to a second straight National Championship game.

In Welsh's last game at Potsdam in March '91, He defeated an undefeated #1 ranked Hamilton squad, at Hamilton in the ECAC Championship game.

Hamilton didn't play Potsdam again until '04-05 when the Bears beat the Anderson-coached Conts in Clinton on a three pointer by Chris Turner late in overtime.

[casey]

casey,

what about culkin?  the guy was a legend at skidmore.

Bed - being a top scorer does not equal being a legend!  He scored a lot of points, and that is about it.  Other players that were on the same teams with him, and have played after him, played as part of team - and achieved team goals.  While playing as a team Skidmore was then able to have a player of the year, winning seasons, and players named as players of the week, and to first/second team numerous times.