MBB: Liberty League

[Ulf_Tornstrom]

Bear-

Thanks for the stats.   You've proved my point.  And that  point was Hamilton was never allowed to compete in the NCAA tourney when they had their best teams.  Hamilton tassled with Potsdam only 5 times in over 30 years of Hamilton being among the nations best.  Hamilton was always playing the best teams in the country.   Potsdam had some great runs, but the consistency was based on which renegade rolled through town and was able to attend class long enough to hit the hardwood. 

How's Coach Murphy doing against Potsdam these days now that he can get those types of athletes on his squad?

Imagine Hamilton back in the day if Coach Murphy had guys like Leroy Witherspoon, Maurice Woods, and Derrick Rowland.  Ever wonder how those three ended up in the North Country anyway?  And although they were all great, great players, you'd be hard pressed to find anyone outside of Potsdam that believes they were better players than Cedric Oliver.

[thebear]

Hamilton as an institution made a decision not to play in the NCAA tournament.  That's what drives college sports - Intitutional control.  Murph knew that when he took the job.

IMHO, Murph for the most part deliberately avoided Potsdam.  I remember a scrimmage in I think '71 when Murph first started coaching on the Hill, and he brought a team up including Mark Badger among others.  I was keeping the book, and I think every one of the three halves they played was about 50-30 in favor of Potsdam, who was led at the time by current D-I coach Mike Deane. 

Needless to say, Murphy wasn't rushing to schedule Potsdam for a while.  In '76, with Oliver, he did come up to play in Potsdam's tip off tournament and Potsdam won.  In total, he played Potsdam 5 times, three regular season and two ECAC finals.  Scheduling is a two way street.  Potsdam was 262-44 between 1980 & 1990, and Hamilton played Potsdam exactly once in those 10 years, so who was ducking who.  I think I know.

Remember Murph and Welsh both were high school legends in the North Country before they started coaching in college, and were well known to each other.

I did see Cedric Oliver play, and I also saw two 6'4 guys named Fran Demyan and Tom Hutchinson shut him down not once, but twice.  The second game featured future J-D coach Bob McKenney running four corners at the end for the Bears and completely frustrating the Continentals and the capacity crowd at Utica College.  I think Oliver was a fine college player and would have been an all-american regardless of who he played for. 

Given Rowland's time playing professionally, both here and in Europe, I believe he was at least Oliver's equal.  If you were to ask Phil Jackson or George Karl, they would both have good things to say about Derrick, both as a player and a person.

As for the origins of our players, the answer is simple, recruiting is networking. Rowland (8th man on his HS team) showed up at Potsdam because a former player of Welsh's from Massena HS was his coach and told Jerry about him.  Woods played on the same HS (Brentwood LI) team as Rowland and showed up a year later after a JUCO stint.

Witherspoon was one of a long line of Utica ND players to go to Potsdam.  The parade started in the '60's when Whitesboro native Lou LaGrand was Potsdam's head coach and continues to the present.  Russ Finnegan, Bill Merna, Charley Ferguson, Eddie Jachim,  Spoon, Steve Babiarz . . . to Mike Brooks who was a key reserve on last year's elite 8 squad. 

As for Murph's current success, Potsdam and SUNYIT split this year.  SUNYIT made 41 trips to the free throw line in a 83-71 win at Potsdam, Potsdam a week later won 85-52 (that's 33 points for the libbies) at SUNYIT, and then the Bears lost a tough 97-96 OT decision in the SUNYAC first round at Utica. 

Doesn't sound like domination to me.

As for Renegades, who do you refer to?

Bill Merna (Over 500 HS wins, currently undefeated & in the state tourney)
Mike Deane (Coach at Siena, Marquette, Lamar, Wagner)
Pat Donnelly (Highly successful coach at Bishop Ludden)
Ed Jachim (D-III All American, national champion)
Derrick Rowland (D-III All-American, national champion)
Mo Woods (D-III All-american, National Champion)
Leroy Witherspoon, (Only 2X D-III Player of the Year, National Champion)
Tim Welsh (D-I coach at Iona & Providence)
Pony Bullock, (D-III All American, National Champion)
Brendan Mitchell, (D-III Player of the Year, National Champion)
Steve Babiarz (D-III All American, National Champion, all-time leading scorer)
Christian Turner (NCAA Post-Graduate Scholarship Winner, now in med school)
Edane Barton (ESPN Academic All-America, candidate for D-III All-American)

If these folks are renegades, sign me up.

[bamm]

Karma point for thebear. 

[thumbsup]

Hey Alf, I mean Ulf, because obviously planet Utica is a place none of us has ever been to.  If you would have read my post, I did mention the past 15 years, which was an approximate time as to when Hamilton has been allowed to play in the NCAA.  Before that it is all you, because I have no need or desire to know the history of d3hoops in NY around 1950.  Where as I do agree with some of your points, I cannot let this safety school thing go.  This may have been the most idiotic line I have heard on here yet.  Do we even need to compare the academic integrity of these two schools.  I did not attend Clarkson, but have many friends and colleagues who have, and lets just say I don't here UTICA as another option when they were discussing the other schools they were applying to.  R.P.I, University of Rochester, Cornell, etc., but I really can't remember hearing about Utica college.  I really don't want to bash UC here, there are many good people down there, but GET REAL.  BTW, Clarkson has a 26-20 record lifetime against UC in mens hoops, if you want to discuss history here.  WHOOPS!!!!!! Even the womens sports at Clarkson have dominated UC, not bad for a safety school. But I digress.  As for the professionals coming out of your hoops program versus Clarkson's whole athletic department WOWOWOWOWOW.  Wait, those guys playing noon hoops on the outside courts for 5 bucks a game are professionals.  Clarkson on the other hand has no one in the professional world except about 20 nhl players, two olympians, a general manager (dave taylor) a player personel guy (Bill O'Flaherty) and that is just the d1 program.  I would love to compare starting salaries for Clarkson and Utica grads.  Best of luck though two those great Utica players in the ABA with Clarkson grad Steve Vega.  Also, I wish best of luck to the lineman playing for the Watertown Red and Black semi-pro football league.  More pros for UTICA.  Wait a minute, you may have an edge in pro poker players, considering turning stone is right down the road.  What are you, the Dean of student life there??  If you are then let's compare admissions standards between the two schools.  SAFETY SCHOOL?  Maybe you and Mork from Ork ought to get together and have tea, maybe ride in his egg.  You saw Mork and Mindy didn't you, with your knowledge of history you were around for that.  Don't even bring Potsdam st. into this, Potsdam is on much different plateau from UC.  I refuse to include a program with their history in this BS.  This is it for me, I thought this was a forum for the learned, your just a fan backing a team who has had a heck of a season, hope they get Fisher.  Safety school, great engineering school you have down there. CLUELESS!!!

[Yankee]

Nice one thumbs up, and let's not forget about Tim Barcomb who gave up minor league baseball contracts so he could be a brain surgeon.

How about the irony in someone comparing Murp to Welsh, two of the biggest cheaters in the histroy of upstate new york basketball history.(Thumbs up I know your not going to like that). Both of these guys were cheating their pants off way before coach fisher had even thought of fab five.  Actually I think coach welsh invented cheating, just so you idiots on this page know coach welsh used to give out cars like they were candy.

[thumbsup]

No argument here Yankee, right on with your assessment.

[Ulf_Tornstrom]

Yankee sounds bitter.  Probably couldn't hold Welsh's jock anyway.

Sorry about insulting Clarkson by comparing it to UC.  After all, Utica only offers a Syracuse University degree.  Clarkson is not even close to RPI, U of R or Cornell, so I'm not sure what kind of glue your friends were sniffing if they actually chose to head North over Ithaca, Troy or Rocha.

How sad is your little Liberty League anyway these days fellas.  Your board is being dominated by E8 and SUNYAC banter:)  Must have had a helluva year.

[retired12]

Lets not overlook Yankee's comment on Welsh giving away cars.  I would assume you to be an intelligent person, but my assumptions have been wrong before....please explain yourself. (I prefer creditable evidence)

[thumbsup]

c,mon Ulf.  I didn't see too many in here bash the empire 8 last year when there one team got beat by a hundred on their own floor.  And you are right about Clarkson in comparison to R.P.I and others.  Clarkson ranks higher than the others on many of their engineering and business programs.  Alright, no more from me, this is pitiful.

[dewcrew88]

Hey Alf, I mean Ulf, because obviously planet Utica is a place none of us has ever been to.  If you would have read my post, I did mention the past 15 years, which was an approximate time as to when Hamilton has been allowed to play in the NCAA.  Before that it is all you, because I have no need or desire to know the history of d3hoops in NY around 1950.  Where as I do agree with some of your points, I cannot let this safety school thing go.  This may have been the most idiotic line I have heard on here yet.  Do we even need to compare the academic integrity of these two schools.  I did not attend Clarkson, but have many friends and colleagues who have, and lets just say I don't here UTICA as another option when they were discussing the other schools they were applying to.  R.P.I, University of Rochester, Cornell, etc., but I really can't remember hearing about Utica college.  I really don't want to bash UC here, there are many good people down there, but GET REAL.  BTW, Clarkson has a 26-20 record lifetime against UC in mens hoops, if you want to discuss history here.  WHOOPS!!!!!! Even the womens sports at Clarkson have dominated UC, not bad for a safety school. But I digress.  As for the professionals coming out of your hoops program versus Clarkson's whole athletic department WOWOWOWOWOW.  Wait, those guys playing noon hoops on the outside courts for 5 bucks a game are professionals.  Clarkson on the other hand has no one in the professional world except about 20 nhl players, two olympians, a general manager (dave taylor) a player personel guy (Bill O'Flaherty) and that is just the d1 program.  I would love to compare starting salaries for Clarkson and Utica grads.  Best of luck though two those great Utica players in the ABA with Clarkson grad Steve Vega.  Also, I wish best of luck to the lineman playing for the Watertown Red and Black semi-pro football league.  More pros for UTICA.  Wait a minute, you may have an edge in pro poker players, considering turning stone is right down the road.  What are you, the Dean of student life there??  If you are then let's compare admissions standards between the two schools.  SAFETY SCHOOL?  Maybe you and Mork from Ork ought to get together and have tea, maybe ride in his egg.  You saw Mork and Mindy didn't you, with your knowledge of history you were around for that.  Don't even bring Potsdam st. into this, Potsdam is on much different plateau from UC.  I refuse to include a program with their history in this BS.  This is it for me, I thought this was a forum for the learned, your just a fan backing a team who has had a heck of a season, hope they get Fisher.  Safety school, great engineering school you have down there. CLUELESS!!!

hey there, thumbsdown... i don't know what Ulf said to prompt this rambling response... but both schools are good in  their own ways... Clarkson has a great engineering program, D1 hockey, etc. Utica has the Syracuse affliation, a great journalism program (I'm biased  ), and a nice campus.

[gobombers15]

Sorry about insulting Clarkson by comparing it to UC.  After all, Utica only offers a Syracuse University degree.  Clarkson is not even close to RPI, U of R or Cornell, so I'm not sure what kind of glue your friends were sniffing if they actually chose to head North over Ithaca, Troy or Rocha.

How sad is your little Liberty League anyway these days fellas.  Your board is being dominated by E8 and SUNYAC banter:)  Must have had a helluva year.

Let's think about this for a second. First, I don't think those schools are head and shoulders above Clarkson. Clarkson is a very good school and most who get degrees from there are very intelligent people who will go on to be quite successful. Like someone said, the school has a great business program and a great engineering program.

It's not as good as Cornell, RPI, or UofRochester? So what. You just mentioned an Ivy League school, a school that has one of the best engineering programs in the nation, and a school that is probably one of the top 20 non-Ivy League schools in the country. It's like saying a good steak is not as good as a cut of filet? You're right, but both are very good. Clarkson is nowhere near as bad as you make it out to be. If I told you I went to Tulane would you call me a moron for not going to Duke or Vanderbilt (the only southern schools better than TU)? I think the two cases are fairly analogous.

Getting an SU degree is great, especially in communications, but it's by no means the end-all of degrees. I think you're pretty off-base on this one, Ulf.

[superman57]

Ulf are you insane Clarkson is as good as RPI and a step below Cornell,  and yes Syracuse is a great degree, but when youo get into Utica College yes it's a Syracuse degree but still a step below probably even Fisher,  not that Fisher is the greates school for academics, because it's not,

[shooters]

What is going on here? Complete madness. I don't think anyone here wants to hear about programs in the 70s. I agree with several points posted by several people but do we all not have something better to do than talk about Murphy and what school is better than another?

[bed]

Shooters,

Let's talk about how both Hamilton and SUNY-IT will both be powerhouses next season.

I think SUNY-IT competes for the SUNYAC title, while Hamilton will again win the Liberty League title.

[rjcarter8]

Now that the aftermath of the LL falling down in the postseason has passed by a couple weeks, anyone have any speculation on why the league had such a poor showing this year?

I know many will say it was a down year, but it was a pretty tight league this season. I'm just surprised at Union's first round exit, and Hamilton's performance in the NCAA's. Any thoughts?