MBB: Liberty League

[Hoaf]

3rd best!! Behind who? Avitabile and who else.

TK had 20 and 10 in almost every game he wasn't hurt.

[labart96]

I am not as knowledgable about LL basketball as I am in Football, but doesn't Hobart's Grazioli deserve some LLPOY consideration since he finished the regular season as the conference leader in scoring (17.6 ppg)?

[shooters]

here is the deal. Tk will get the POY award becuz he put up good enough numbers to earn it and his team won the LL and is playing well right now. If Vassar would have beat Hamilton once or SLU and didn't collapse during the last portion of the season Avitable would have received it. Both players are deserving of the award but it comes down in a close one like this to teams and winning. Now if Hobart would have had a good first part of the season then we could talk about their guy but that just isn't possible.

[labart96]

that's true.  in many cases, the poy goes to the best player on the best team in the league, not necessarily the "best player overall".

tk could very well be the best overall, but it certainly helps his candidacy that he's the best player on the best team.

[DDirty22]

You guys are crazy.  If you go the the Liberty League webpage and look at conference only stats (its the only fair way to access who had a better season since they played the same conference scedule but different non-conference schedules) you will see the Avitabile leads TK in EVERY statistical catagory accept free throw percentage.  This in mind, I do not know how Avitabile does not deserve the POY award.

[b4the3isme]

dd22- I have no opinion on the POY award.  I haven't seen Vassar play at all.  I have seen Hamilton play and the day I saw them TK wasn't even their best player- Nick Jones was.   I do however have to say that statistics alone never are the sole criteria for picking a POY.  Certainly again until proven differently Hamilton is the best team in the league when they don't fall asleep against the bottom dwellers (ie: Skidmore, Clarkson & Hobart)- all of which they split with.  Again until you can prove differently, TK has more help on his team from top to bottom.  I believe they have 5 guys in the top 25 in scoring.  That being said TK probably doesn't need or have to put up the same statistical numbers as Avitable (sp).  However his team wins.  Certainly there are guys in the NBA with better stats than Steve Nash but who was the MVP the past 2 years?  Another factor is TK is a senior.  All things being relatively close a senior will probably win over a junior. All that being said I hope Union beats Hamilton after they fall asleep again!!!!!

[bucketsallday]

if you wanna forget the stats and say who does more for their team - its avitable. not even close. hes a powerforward that essentially starts the offense for vassar. in terms of an all around player, avitable is the best player in the conference. all that being said - tk has had a great career and had a great year and probably would have been first team all-region and maybe some type of all-america had he not gotten hurt. either way the vote ends up, i think everyone can agree that both players are phenomonal and deserve the award.

[Hoaf]

hat being said TK probably doesn't need or have to put up the same statistical numbers as Avitable (sp).  However his team wins.  Certainly there are guys in the NBA with better stats than Steve Nash but who was the MVP the past 2 years?  Another factor is TK is a senior.  All things being relatively close a senior will probably win over a junior. All that being said I hope Union beats Hamilton after they fall asleep again!!!!!

Good points!!

I like what you said about Avitibile being a Junior and not a Senior I forgot about that. Also, Avitibile does everything for his team but that's only because his team is horrible. Hamilton, as you just said has better players on it than you can find on two teams in the league and because of that TK deserves POY.

Let's just see how both of them play this weekend.

[rjcarter8]

I think Hamilton will win the LL tourney, it's at their place, which is a significant advantage for the Conts. I also think the LL will only get one team into the NCAA tourney, primarily because the NE region factors into the equation.

There have been several scenarios kicked around about how league tourneys might affect other leagues Pool C bids, but what if neither Hamilton nor St. Lawrence wins the LL tourney? The teams all beat up on each other in this league, though the top two more so. However, Hamilton's three conference losses are to the 5th, 7th and 8th place teams in the LL. St. Lawrence has lost to Hamilton (twice), Vassar and Hobart.

As for the two other teams in the conference tourney — Vassar and Union — they've had some good wins and some of their 6 losses (each have 6) have been close. Vassar has dropped games to Hamilton (twice), Union, St. Lawrence, Clarkson and Hobart. The Brewers have beaten Union and St. Lawrence once each as well.

Union beat Vassar, but lost to St. Lawrence and Hamilton twice, as well as Vassar once. The Dutchmen also dropped four of their last five, including a decision to RPI, making them the weak link of the four. However, Union has shown its capacity to get on hot-shooting streaks, especially during the conference tourney, like a couple years ago when they beat host Hobart in the first game and held off Hamilton in the finals to make the NCAAs.

Any other thoughts on the potential for upsets in the LL tourney?

[rjcarter8]

Just thought I'd take a look to see how the Northeast and East region QOWI's stack up aganist each other. It may have been overkill, but I grabbed the top 20 teams in each region, then compiled the combined list to the top 40 overall. It's clear to see the Northeast Region has teams with much higher QOWI than the East Region.

Northeast Region  (Region rank, QOWI, Overall rank, Team, Conference, Region win pct., Region record, Overall record)
1.   11.625 (1) Amherst (NESCAC)   0.958 (23-1)   24-1
2.    10.950 (3) Trinity (Conn.) (NESCAC)   0.850 (17-3)   21-3
3.    10.810 (4) Worcester Polytech (NEWMAC)   0.905 (19-2)   21-2
4.    10.708 (5) Salem State (MASCAC)   0.920 (23-2)   23-2
5.    10.520 (8) Rhode Island College (LEC)   0.880 (22-3)   22-3
6.    10.217 (20) Keene State (LEC)   0.826 (19-4)   22-4
7.    10.125 (25) Brandeis (UAA)   0.750 (18-6)   18-6
8.    9.792 (42) Bates (NESCAC)   0.708 (17-7)   18-7
9.    9.708 (49) Husson (NAC)   0.875 (21-3)   21-5
10.    9.360 (61) Tufts (NESCAC)   0.600 (15-10)   15-10
11.    9.346 (63) Western New England (GNAC)   0.731 (19-7)   19-7
12.    9.292 (67) Babson (NEWMAC)   0.625 (15-9)   16-9
13.    9.250 (69) Bridgewater State (MASCAC)   0.708 (17-7)   17-7
14.    9.190 (72) Colby (NESCAC)   0.667 (14-7)   15-10
15.    8.870 (95) Gordon (CCC)   0.696 (16-7)   19-7
16.    8.800 (97) Elms (NAC)   0.680 (17-8)   18-8
17.    8.800 (98) Lasell (NAC)   0.600 (15-10)   16-10
18.    8.720 (103) Endicott (CCC)   0.600 (15-10)   15-10
19.   8.696 (108) Williams (NESCAC)   0.565 (13-10)   14-11
20.   8.600 (114) Middlebury (NESCAC)   0.600 (15-10)   15-10

East Region (Region rank, QOWI, Overall rank, Team, Conference, Region win pct., Region record, Overall record)
1.    10.400 (10) Brockport State (SUNYAC)   0.840 (21-4)   22-4
2.    10.292 (15) St. Lawrence (LL)   0.792 (19-5)   20-5
3.    10.217 (19) Rochester (UAA)   0.739 (17-6)   17-7
4.    10.208 (21) St. John Fisher (E8)   0.792 (19-5)   20-5
5.     9.870 (38) New York University (UAA)   0.783 (18-5)   19-5
6.     9.762 (46) Hamilton (LL)   0.714 (15-6)   18-6
7.     9.348 (62) Utica (E8)   0.739 (17-6)   18-6
8.     9.190 (71) Plattsburgh State (SUNYAC)   0.714 (15-6)   18-8
9.     8.727 (101) Vassar (LL)   0.636 (14-8)   15-9
10.   8.696 (107) Oswego State (SUNYAC)   0.609 (14-9)   15-11
11.   8.680 (111) Clarkson (LL)   0.560 (14-11)   14-11
12.   8.667 (113) Geneseo State (SUNYAC)   0.583 (14-10)   15-11
13.    8.522 (117) Rochester Tech (E8)   0.565 (13-10)   14-11
14.    8.429 (125) Ithaca (E8)  0.571 (12-9)   14-11
15.    8.391 (127) SUNYIT (SUNYAC)   0.609 (14-9)   16-10
16.    7.917 (160) RPI (LL)   0.500 (12-12)   13-12
17.    7.857 (169) Union (LL)   0.524 (11-10)   11-13
18.    7.773 (174) Alfred (E8)  0.455 (10-12)   10-14
19. 7.727 (178) Buffalo State (SUNYAC)   0.455 (10-12)   12-13
20. 7.708 (181) Hobart (LL)   0.417 (10-14)   11-14

Here are the combined regional rankings based on QOWI. In the event of a tie, and there are a few, I ranked the teams in order of their overall rank.

Combined Regions (Northeast and East)
1. (NE1)   11.625 (1) Amherst (NESCAC)   0.958 (23-1)   24-1
2. (NE2)   10.950 (3) Trinity (Conn.) (NESCAC)   0.850 (17-3)   21-3
3. (NE3)   10.810 (4) Worcester Polytech (NEWMAC)   0.905 (19-2)   21-2
4. (NE4)   10.708 (5) Salem State (MASCAC)   0.920 (23-2)   23-2
5. (NE5)   10.520 (8) Rhode Island College (LEC)   0.880 (22-3)   22-3
6. (E1)   10.400 (10) Brockport State (SUNYAC)   0.840 (21-4)   22-4
7. (E2)   10.292 (15) St. Lawrence (LL)   0.792 (19-5)   20-5
8. (E3)   10.217 (19) Rochester (UAA)   0.739 (17-6)   17-7
tie (NE6)   10.217 (20) Keene State (LEC)   0.826 (19-4)   22-4
10. (E4)    10.208 (21) St. John Fisher (E8)   0.792 (19-5)   20-5
11. (NE7)    10.125 (25) Brandeis (UAA)   0.750 (18-6)   18-6
12. (E5)     9.870 (38) New York University (UAA)   0.783 (18-5)   19-5
13. (NE8)    9.792 (42) Bates (NESCAC)   0.708 (17-7)   18-7
14. (E6)     9.762 (46) Hamilton (LL)   0.714 (15-6)   18-6
15. (NE9)    9.708 (49) Husson (NAC)   0.875 (21-3)   21-5
16. (NE10)    9.360 (61) Tufts (NESCAC)   0.600 (15-10)   15-10
17. (E7)      9.348 (62) Utica (E8)   0.739 (17-6)   18-6
18. (NE11)   9.346 (63) Western New England (GNAC)   0.731 (19-7)   19-7
19. (NE12)    9.292 (67) Babson (NEWMAC)   0.625 (15-9)   16-9
20. (NE13)    9.250 (69) Bridgewater State (MASCAC)   0.708 (17-7)   17-7
21. (E8)        9.190 (71) Plattsburgh State (SUNYAC)   0.714 (15-6)   18-8
tie (NE14)    9.190 (72) Colby (NESCAC)   0.667 (14-7)   15-10
23. (NE15)    8.870 (95) Gordon (CCC)   0.696 (16-7)   19-7
24. (NE16)    8.800 (97) Elms (NAC)   0.680 (17-8)   18-8
tie (NE17)    8.800 (98) Lasell (NAC)   0.600 (15-10)   16-10
26. (E9)        8.727 (101) Vassar (LL)   0.636 (14-8)   15-9
27. (NE18)    8.720 (103) Endicott (CCC)   0.600 (15-10)   15-10
28. (E10)      8.696 (107) Oswego State (SUNYAC)   0.609 (14-9)   15-11
tie (NE19)      8.696 (108) Williams (NESCAC)   0.565 (13-10)   14-11
30. (E11)      8.680 (111) Clarkson (LL)   0.560 (14-11)   14-11
31. (E12)       8.667 (113) Geneseo State (SUNYAC)   0.583 (14-10)   15-11
32. (NE20)   8.600 (114) Middlebury (NESCAC)   0.600 (15-10)   15-10
33. (E13)       8.522 (117) Rochester Tech (E8)   0.565 (13-10)   14-11
34. (E14)       8.429 (125) Ithaca (E8)  0.571 (12-9)   14-11
35. (E15)       8.391 (127) SUNYIT (SUNYAC)   0.609 (14-9)   16-10
36. (E16)       7.917 (160) RPI (LL)   0.500 (12-12)   13-12
37. (E17)       7.857 (169) Union (LL)   0.524 (11-10)   11-13
38. (E18)       7.773 (174) Alfred (E8)  0.455 (10-12)   10-14
39. (E19)      7.727 (178) Buffalo State (SUNYAC)   0.455 (10-12)   12-13
40. (E20)      7.708 (181) Hobart (LL)   0.417 (10-14)   11-14

I know some of these teams will get their conference bids, but there are plenty for Pool C too.

Anyone have any thoughts about Pool C bids after seeing this?

[shooters]

Again, TK doesn't have to do it all becuz of his surroundings, but Avitable does. Excellent points all the way around. I'm not a huge TK fan- so it hurts for me to say he'll get it but trust me he will. Now to the tournament, Hamilton hasn't lost to any of the teams in it, period. They always say the third time is the toughest for teams to play each other. Upsets? Anything can and probably will happen this weekend. As many of you know I'm a Hamilton fan but if you want to talk about what kind of upset i'm predicting from a season long analysis, I could totally see Hamilton going home early. I hope not but it could happen.

[Hoaf]

Based upon the QOWI rankings it all depends upon who wins their tournaments. I could see almost every team winning their own tournament in the top 15 minus Utica, Brandeis, Bates, and Trinity. That would mean that they would get the bids. If all goes well. If there are any shakeups that would throw everything out of control and most likely, Hamilton wouldn't get a Pool C bid.

There are only 20 Pool C Bids and that would be 5 into the tournament from who I mentioned previously. I would just root for the leaders in all the conferences to win out through their tournaments.

[bucketsallday]

congrats to tk for the poy award. but i cant take any of the voting or the awards seriously if dutton is coach of the year. thats pathetic

[woot returns]

any of you guys gonna go to hamilton to watch the tournament this weekend?

[b4the3isme]

Man I pray that WPI and Salem St win those weak a$$ conference tournaments like the MASCAC & NEWMAC.  It will frustrate me so much if one of those teams get in with a pool c bid.  Last yr in the dance if you look at it WPI beat the newmac team Bridgewater by 17 and then Utica destroys WPI and their gaudy 23-3 record by 18.  Know its a different year but if you look at one common thread this year Clarkson pounded Castleton St by about 18 or so and Castleton is 9-5 in the MASCAC.  Don't really know as much about the NAC or the LEC but I believe they are not as strong as the Liberty , E8 or SUNYAC. The NESCAC with Amherst, Trinity and Bates is a true power conference but that's the only New England Conference that deserves multiple bids without question.  As for the LL tournament I think the key if the first round.. If Hamilton falls asleep against Union and Union shoots the lights like they did against Clarkson who knows?  If Hamilton doesn't look ahead and takes care of business I think either Vassar or SLU will fall to the Conts with an NCAA bid on the line in front a raucous home crowd.