MBB: Liberty League

[FLYZ5]

Best of luck to the only 2 LL teams left standing.  Vassar in the ECACs on Wed. vs. SJF and Clarkson in the NCAAs vs. Kings on Thursday. 

[bucketsallday]

can someone please explain to me how vassar is not hosting a game in the ECAC tourney? ok, you definently cant put them in front of brockport (how did they not make the tournament, by the way?), and 2, 3, and 4 dont even matter that much as they can only host one game since there are only seven teams this year, and the one seed will automatically host the final four, but this team doesnt deserve a home game? they went 18-7, finished tied for second in the LL, and they are the defending ECAC champs. st john fisher was tied for third in the E8, and had a 16-11 record. i may be wrong here, but i was under the impression that ecac seedings were solely based on record.

i dunno. im just getting the feeling that vassar got shafted here.

[MHoops]

I thought at first Vassar got the shaft as well, but the ECAC selection criteria is as follows:

The committee will review all of the following primary criteria (in priority order):

1. Divisional winning percentage, head-to-head results, results against common opponents;
2. Strength-of-schedule to be determined in part by results against teams selected into the NCAA or already in the tournament; and
3. Regular season conference standings

Fisher and Vassar's common opponents:

  Vassar split with Hobart W 78-73, L 56-57;  Fisher lost to Hobart 80-84 
  Vassar beat Hartwick 58-55;  Fisher beat Hartwick 69-59, 70-61


I imagine it therefore came down to strength of schedule, which gives Fisher a slight edge.  If Vassar wins Wednesday, then it's a long trip home late Wednesday night followed by another long trip back up to the Rochester area on Saturday.

[with age comes?]

I think the Liberty League and the SUNYAC suffer from the same malady ( parity ).  The LL had 7 pretty good teams with a real shot to beat each other on any given night. A perfect case in point might well be Union.  They may have been at or near the top of the league for the second half of the season with a 5-2 record and wins against SLU, Clarkson, and Hamilton (all playoff teams). While you get 2 teams in from the LEC Mass-Darmouth & Rhode Island because they don't get beat as often by the lower tier teams. Keene State split with Mass-Dartmouth but got beat at home by SUNYAC doormat New Paltz. Keene also got pounded by Williams by 20 and Hamilton beat Williams.  I'm not saying that Rhode Island & Mass-Dartmouth aren't deserving - they are, but probably no more than SLU or Hamilton, but SLU & Hamilton get beat by the lowly Union's and Clarkson's and don't get the nod.  I think the same can be said for the SUNYAC but the parity is at the top (except for Platts who is in a world of their own), the b-ports, Oswego's, Geneseo's, & Cortland's trade all these losses thereby eliminating a very deserving b-port or any of the above teams.

[Cards7580]

"...Bear, great comeback with the 7 losses to Clarkson.  Keep all that Sunyac stuff out of here baby. Just kidding.  Quick refresher in St. Lawrence basketball history.  I remember when Coach Davis was running the show in the late 80's early 90's and the Golden Knights were holding their own against the Larries. Coach Anderson did okay when he was at Clarkson.  The pre Paulsen/Downs days weren't all that special.  If there was an online course in Potsdam and Plattsburgh hoops I would recommend you and the Cards fellow to teach it.  You guys are amazing with that stuff. ..."

Thanks for the compliment.  I feel that when you talk about Potsdam and Plattsburgh you need to include the other two North Country teams.   St Lawrence and Plattsburgh play at least once every year as does Clarkson.   Neither game is easy to win (at least not the ones I have seen).  All of these teams with the exception of Clarkson have been in the NCAA before. I applaud them for winning despite the odds.

[thebear]

The pre Paulsen/Downs days weren't all that special. [quote}

Compliments graciously accepted along with any & all + or - k's.

Actually In my era, Paul Evans [later Navy (David Robinson) & Pitt] had the Saints & he & Welsh used to get tangled up in some epic battles.  The Big Eye in the sky would have had trouble reffing a game with those two going at it.  Than as Cards pointed out, Evans leveraged the happy circumstance of D. Robinson growing 5 inches his freshman year into the Pitt job and hired long-time Plattsburgh head man Norm Law as his top assistant, springing Law from the purgatory of one win against the Bears in about 15 years.

Happy to keep the history lessons, and also enjoy in my dotage watching some very competitive D-III games.

Wish the Cards TV could be streamed the way Oneonta streams all of their games.

[FLYZ5]

Getting caught up on previous posts and am curious about the RPI brouhaha.  Looks like they lost 4 or 5 players (seems like a significant # in one season) with the most compelling being the ineligible foreign transfer.  I read the Albany Times Union article and apparently the player didn't inform the coach that he had already been on a team in Denmark during the fall.  Sounds like the responsibility was his, not RPI's.   So, to answer thomashoops42 question-any fallout from RPI itself?- I am assuming that if they weren't deemed responsible, there were no consequences.  One other thing I noted from many posts was that their best player had little or no help.  With a 17-18 player roster that seems strange.

[thomashoops42]

Interesting points FLYZ5, I guess the question is why are those players leaving?  And the other is how do you have so many players and not have much help for Simmons?  And, I guess, if he really didn't have any real help like many other teams in the LL but still did what he did, maybe he should have been POY.

Are there any RPI posters with insight?

[XVII]

Interesting points FLYZ5, I guess the question is why are those players leaving?  And the other is how do you have so many players and not have much help for Simmons?  And, I guess, if he really didn't have any real help like many other teams in the LL but still did what he did, maybe he should have been POY.

Are there any RPI posters with insight?

I've been watching RPI for 4 years and I live with many of the players, so this is all I can deduce from our season:

Players don't quit in the middle of the season, especially large contributors like Gordon and Rourke, unless they coincidentally both had school or family issues, or they don't believe in the system and are bailing out like rats bailing out of a sinking ship (yeah I'm an engineer but I can use similes with the best of the liberal arts students).

After the Henrik incident, it seemed like most of the team quit caring, at least until they found out that they wouldn't have to forfeit their games after all.

The coaching staff cost them the first Hamilton game, which set the tone for the rest of the season.   The bench was T'd up after a not-so-dubious call, and that changed the momentum of the entire game.  Hamilton was on a run, or went on a run right after that.

Coach Griff's refusal to start Rupp and Brion, when they were absolutely playing better than Bull and Philatre, may have led to animosity.  Rupp only started the last three games because Bull went down with an ankle.

Kris Kowalczyk was suspended for the second Union game, which we lost.  He may have made a difference.  I think it was a league suspension for punching a Hobart player on the road.   Didn't see that one, but heard it was reminiscent of when Simmons sucker punched Haviland-Markowitz back in the day.

Finally, after 4 years, I've seen one LL playoff game, which we were blown out in.  I can promise you that RPI doesn't have a monopoly on bad players.  We've had Paris Moore, John Van Schaick, Tom Schneider, Neal Wesson, Sam Simmons, great LL players, but somehow are always fighting to get in.

There's a reason that Hamilton is consistently good and we're consistently mediocre.  It always comes back to leadership.   

[met_fan]

I posted this several days ago in the NESCAC forum:
Take this for what it's worth (which might be nothing), but at the end of this article, a lacrosse/football recruit for Hamilton says Hamilton told him the lacrosse team plans to move to a NESCAC schedule.  If that were to be the case, I wonder if basketball would go the same route.

http://www.salemnews.com/pusports/local_story_053134457.html?keyword=secondarystory

[thomashoops42]

XVII, sounds like you have a lot of insight on the team.  So you think the blame rests on the "leadership"?  I also am curious how Simmons can come back, isn't he listed as a senior?  I am not familiar enough with the situation to know and it sounds like you are.
How do you think RPI will be next year?  Will the leadership be better? Who will step up?  Looking at the stats, Zullo & Kowalcyk are the next leading scorers, at 8.5 & 8 ppg.  Both of them are seniors, so who can score besides Simmons?

[poker33]

Does anyone know why Hamilton was not selected for the ECAC tourney?  Did they choose not to participate?  It seems with a 17-9 record, better than almost every other team in ECAC, they would have been chosen.

[MHoops]

Does anyone know why Hamilton was not selected for the ECAC tourney?  Did they choose not to participate?  It seems with a 17-9 record, better than almost every other team in ECAC, they would have been chosen.

I imagine they either declined or were not eligible due to the 19 week season NCAA rule.   They are not on the list of ECAC declared teams (http://ecac.org/championships/team/mbkb/2007-08/DIII_Men-s_Bball.pdf).

[thebear]

Hamilton follows NESCAC guidelines.  They used to only play in the ECAC's.  Once NESCAC decided to play in the NCAA's they took the ECAC off the table, or at least that's what I've been told.

For example in '91, in Jerry Welsh's last D-III game, Potsdam faced an undefeated and NABC #1 ranked Hamilton squad in the ECAC finals, and beat them when their second string point guard, replacing the starter who had been dismissed from the team, went off for 26.  Famous Jim Boeheim quote about that one, the "If Welsh was such a great coach, why did he have a guy who scored 26 against the best team in the country sitting on the bench".!

Welsh won that game, and took the Iona job shortly after.

[met_fan]

Does anyone know why Hamilton was not selected for the ECAC tourney?  Did they choose not to participate?  It seems with a 17-9 record, better than almost every other team in ECAC, they would have been chosen.

NESCAC teams don't go the ECACs, and even though Hamilton doesn't currently play a NESCAC schedule in basketball, they still go by the same rules.  That is my understanding, anyway.