MBB: Southern California Intercollegiate Athletic Conference

[Sabretooth Tiger]

Isn't it a little early to be writing off the SCIAC?  As for my alma mater specifically, won't the results of Oxy's upcoming outings against William Jessup and Azusa Pacific may be able to shed some light?  APU is highly ranked in NAIA and William Jessup beat UC Davis in an exhibition . . . so does this mean anything?  I'm mainly a football fan looking to broaden my horizons, feel free to educate me.

[David Collinge]

From his comments, I believe that "Old Fighting Scot" is a Monmouth College Scot, not a Wooster Scot.  However, I happen to be both a close follower of the Wooster program and a soon-to-be SoCal denizen (I'm on the long road west right now), I'll take a stab at your questions. 

Any chance you can share with us some perspective about your alma mater, a very SCIAC-like liberal arts insitution.  Folks in our conference, from coaches down to former players, think that national success is something that is beyond our institutional capabilities.  Is there a top-to-bottom focus on the success of the basketball program at Wooster?  How is it that Wooster has been able to rise up to the top of the top tier? 

I'm not quite sure what you mean by a "top-to-bottom focus," but whatever you mean I think Wooster has it.  Men's basketball is very important to Wooster, to the administration, the alumni, the students, and the townsfolk.  (Football is, of course, more important, since it is Ohio, but that's neither here nor there.)  The men's basketball program does not suffer from a lack of resources, has very good facilities, and great fan support.  Wooster's coach (Steve Moore, now in his 19th season) is one of the best X's-and-O's coaches in the country, and is positively revered by his current and former players.  Put that all together and you get a steady supply of top-quality (for D3) players (success breeds success) and relative success on the national scene.

Wooster has not really "risen" to the top of the top tier, in two ways.  On the one hand, you could say that they're not there: they've only made the Final Four one time, 3 years ago, and never got beyond the Sweet Sixteen until about 1999.  But on the other hand, you could say that Wooster has always been at the top of the top tier:  Wooster is the second-winningest program all time in D3 (trailing conference rival Wittenberg University by about 100 games, and essentially tied with Illinois Wesleyan), and has had three coaches with 300+ wins (only Kansas and Utah can also say that).  Basketball success is a long, long tradition at Wooster, and a great source of pride.

I'm not sure how that would apply to SCIAC schools, being a SCIAC novice.  I'm interested in learning more about the SCIAC as I get to some games with Diehardfan this season.

[diehardfan]

Greg wins at Trivial Pursuit...who would have thunk it!

Too true! Glad that all those random facts are useful for some other thing besides impressing the ladies, Greg.  

the level of play from redlands was sub par.  is this year's team just not very good or is this what you expect to see from the bulldogs.

Folks in our conference, from coaches down to former players, think that national success is something that is beyond our institutional capabilities.

And for the rest of the SCIAC fans, based on early season indicators, it looks like another long year for the SCIAC and a very short post-season. Carthage beats Concordia.  Weakest NAIA team in league Vanguard beats PP PP and LV.  CLU loss to Edgewood.  UR gets bombed back east. Oxy piling up Ws against La Sierra.

Kats will rule the SCIAC again with 7 teams battling for second.  Unless he gets lucky with a first round against a Colorado College or equivalent, PP will lose by 15-20 points in the first round.

The idea of institutional capibilities is a complex one... why do you, and others think that you are incapable?

I'm interested in learning more about the SCIAC as I get to some games with Diehardfan this season.

Woo! 

[Mr. Ypsi]

David,

You TOO are moving to LaLa land!  I fear I will NEVER meet two of my favorite posters (you and April)!

Of course, I was at Wheaton for the MIAA-CCIW showdown last year - it was YOU guys who stood ME up!  IF we never meet, let that be on your conscience!

[diehardfan]

Awww... chuck, we'll meet soon, don't you fret. You are one of my top priorities of those I haven't met. 

[David Collinge]

Chuck, you could always come to LA, you know.  You wouldn't be the first Michigander to visit the Southland.  I realize Los Angeles is not Ypsilanti, but then again what is?  Come visit and I'll use my HOF status to get you good seats at a CalTech game.   

[Three totally lame jokes in four sentences--a new P.U. record?]

[Mr. Ypsi]

David,

I did make it out to LA in 1972 - geez, did they mess up a perfectly nice desert!

Besides, I have a brother in the Bay area - would I be allowed to visit LA?

CalTech TICKETS?  Isn't that an oxymoron?

Oops, only three gags in three lines - you win.   [Wait a second, you had 3 in 4 - I win!]

P.S., can you remain a d3 Hall-of-Famer if you move to a place where there are almost no d3  teams?  (You may have to point out that the Cabonney Rule was shattered!)

[Gregory Sager]

[Too true! Glad that all those random facts are useful for some other thing besides impressing the ladies, Greg.  

Ladies are impressed by trivia mavens? Gee, I must've missed that memo.  

The idea of institutional capibilities is a complex one... why do you, and others think that you are incapable?

He doesn't, April. West Coast Whiner is the The Artist Formerly Known as Oxy '03 Salem Pavers. Ever since he first appeared in the SCIAC room about three or so years ago (he was "George Bush" back then) he has relentlessly championed the proposition that the SCIAC is an underrated league in overall D3 terms and that SCIAC teams are capable of going to the Final Four and even the title game if they would only allow themselves to approach March with a more positive mindset. He's made me the bete noire of this room (Pat as well) for pointing out the lack of success that the SCIAC has had historically, both in the tournament and against the snowbirds from elsewhere around D3 who fly into SoCal every November and December and more than hold their own in SCIAC gyms. But I actually do respect his bulldog tenacity on the SCIAC's behalf, and his devotion to the league and to this room in particular.

What he was doing in that post you cited is called "sandbagging", or "pulling a Lou Holtz". Given his past history in this room, I'm pretty sure that he actually does think that the '06 SCIAC champs (he appears to be banking on Pomona-Pitzer at this point) can make a run in March if they believe in themselves. Your trust-filled tendency to accept the words of others at face value has once again led you down the garden path, April.   I was hoping that David's arrival in SoCal would help shield you from the ceaseless cynicism and dripping irony of Posting Up habitues such as West Coast Whiner, but David assures me that he will only make things worse.  

Awww... chuck, we'll meet soon, don't you fret. You are one of my top priorities of those I haven't met.

Words not to be taken lightly, Chuck. The number of people April likes who have green clothing in their closets is not nearly as big as it used to be.  

P.S., can you remain a d3 Hall-of-Famer if you move to a place where there are almost no d3  teams?

We in the HOF consider this to be missionary work on David's part, Chuck. 

[Mr. Ypsi]

Awww... chuck, we'll meet soon, don't you fret. You are one of my top priorities of those I haven't met.

Words not to be taken lightly, Chuck. The number of people April likes who have green clothing in their closets is not nearly as big as it used to be.  

P.S., can you remain a d3 Hall-of-Famer if you move to a place where there are almost no d3  teams?

We in the HOF consider this to be missionary work on David's part, Chuck. 

Along with the omitted parts of the post, pure genius (though I have almost NOTHING green in my closet - my wife says it just doesn't go with me! [do I need a new wife? ])  I 'applaud'!

[Old Fighting Scot]

I am indeed a living breathing Monmouth College Fighting Scot, relocated to the I.E.  Dont know much about Wooster but i can tell you all you want to know about the MWC.......

[WestCoastWhiner]

GS is too good.  You are actually wrong, however, about any hidden optimism on my part.  Your barrage of cold-hard facts have gotten to me.  I no longer believe that a SCIAC team, especially PP this year, can do anything more than maybe win a game in the Tourney.  I used to look at the talent at Wooster, Wittenberg, Carthage, Amherst, Catholic, Hopkins, and think that on neutral floors the talent of those teams would not result in the kind of record that we have seen from the SCIAC in the post-season.  I now don't believe that.  Talent wins games more than coaching and I've come to see that my analysis was flawed.  My new theory is that as dominant as Pomona has been in this conference, they at best have 1 starter out of their first 5 of any recent championship team that could start on any team in Salem in the past 10 years.  There may be a team or two that would have 2 start for one of those teams, but the other three would be the 9-12 men.  The second 5 is comprised of what mostly would be JV players at elite D3 schools. 

Stats don't lie and I'm going to stop beating on a drum about how schools like Pomona and Claremont shouldn't accept Williams & Wooster being national programs while they are kings in a bottom-tier conference.  I understand too that nobody really cares in Claremont or for that matter anywhere else in the SCIAC.   Institutional apathy and widespread acceptance of mediocrity.  Trust me, there isn't an administrator at Pomona, Pitzer or Claremont who emailed the coaches last weekend asking them what is needed to help them compete with a very young and up and coming Washington U. 

But having said all that, I'm not going to let OFS come in here and talk about Oxy being the 5th best program in their conference.  You have to show us something to back that up.  I think a couple of years ago when Oxy played Aurora in the Tourney, a team that beat Monmouth by 20 that year,  Oxy handled them a 20 point loss.  Granted, that was a couple of years ago but I still think Oxy or for that matter, any of the SCIAC's big 3, would fare well against a MWC team. 

Redlands is not representative of the conference.  They have a fun system but you are right about the talent issues, which also get exposed by pretty much every SCIAC team.
 

       

[Sabretooth Tiger]

I think that Oxy and Pomona are slated to play Amherst and Whitworth at the Oxy Classic on Jan. 2 and 3.  The results of those games may be a good indicator of SCIAC quality this year and the the potential depth of a SCIAC run into the playoffs . . .

or not . . .   

[WestCoastWhiner]

Last year I gave the SCIAC ADs and SIDs a year reprieve from criticism because I was so pleased with the redesigned conference Website.  That was then...

Do any SCIAC schools pay for SIDs or is it a student work-study program.  Actually, it can't be the latter because then that would actually be a creative solution to tight budgets and we would probably have a resource with some value.  We are at the end of November and there are ZERO stats, scores and data posted about 2005-06 SCIAC basketball.  Any reason why?

Hats off to Oxy, Cal Lu, Whittier/Redlands, in that order, for at least moving their content into the proper season.  Oxy has the best Website in my view for their hoops program and Cal Lu's is also good, but not as robust.  Nice of Pomona and Claremont to care enough about their teams this season to put up timely, fresh material...

[Old Fighting Scot]

But having said all that, I'm not going to let OFS come in here and talk about Oxy being the 5th best program in their conference.  You have to show us something to back that up.  I think a couple of years ago when Oxy played Aurora in the Tourney, a team that beat Monmouth by 20 that year,  Oxy handled them a 20 point loss.  Granted, that was a couple of years ago but I still think Oxy or for that matter, any of the SCIAC's big 3, would fare well against a MWC team. 

Redlands is not representative of the conference.  They have a fun system but you are right about the talent issues, which also get exposed by pretty much every SCIAC team.

MC was 2-14 in the conference that year.  Very much so a very bad MWC team that year.  that MC team had lost 7 seniors from the previous year, and had one of the worst records in MC history.  not a very good example.  this years oxy could not have beaten last year's MC (MC finished 5th in the MWC last year) and this years MC (though i havent seen them play) should be better than last years team. 

Also i wasnt really trying to smite oxy.  in the MWC the top 4 teams make the conference tourney and like last year there are usually 5 or 6 teams that are in contention for the title every year.  Oxy is good enough to contend for the MWC title within the 5 or 6 teams that usually do, but they did not impress me enough to proclaim them a top tier team.  if you didnt know, two unranked MC teams have beaten two top-15 wiac schools within the last week.

I agree Oxy has a very good athletic website, one of the best I've seen......

[WestCoastWhiner]

OFS, appreciate the disagreement.  Glad to see your early-season success against the powerful WIAC. 

A conference tourney should help the SCIAC.   If it helps gets our teams a 1st round win every now and then it will be a success.  Oxy's run several years ago gave me some hope but our conference performance the past 2 years has brought me back to earth.