MBB: Southern California Intercollegiate Athletic Conference

[WestCoastWhiner]

Thanks for the input OFS, good stuff.  DJ, always has good insight.  But I'm left after reading your email with a big, "I hear you, but find a way."  Coach K is a great, great coach.  Pomona is a great school.  Throw in the unique 5 college campuses, a freak or two at Scripps and the outstanding facilities and Pomona should be able to compete with Amherst, Williams & the  smartest Wooster players.  Heck, Pomona offers a compelling opporunity to the kid getting losely recruited by a low Ivy.   Pull some strings and have Baldwin drive over from the beach to talk to Kats and his staff.  "Hey guys, it takes brass balls to sell the SCIAC.  I could go out tonight, with the leads you have, and bring in 2 all-americans."

CMS offers a similar compelling opportunity. 

Oxy is screwed because its academic standards are higher than its stagnant academic standing supports.  Redlands, well, tough to sell the IE.  CLU, might turn some things around with the new facility.  Not sure how much the admin will play ball at CLU but they have an opportunity.  Whittier, nice facility but expensive and why go there if you can go somewhere else?  LV, the tent? 

[bballfan2]

Also, So Cal has no D3 state schools that I know of other than UCSC, who seems to not care about being bad, this means every kid that goes to a SCIAC school needs 40G or to get a good aid package. That said, it's that's the same with NESCAC schools like Williams, or Amherst, but they also get slots for players which PP doesn't. 

That said I know of kids that have turned down scholarships to come to school in the SCIAC, and kids that have turned down Pomona to go play in the NAIA, which if you figure look at estimated future income is probably an awful decision regarless of expense. 

My belief is that if the top 3 SCIAC schools we'll say OXY, PP, and Cal lu historicly played a season in the mid-west that the better compitition would lead to better play, and they'd be competitive.

Get Cal tech out of the conference, bring in Chapman, UCSD should go D3 again, and come over as well (they're a HORRIBLE D2 team), Redlands should be put on league probation until they decide to play real basketball and be competitive.

The schools should hire ONE person to be incharge of press release, it's not hard they could have a budget to hire an intern at each school if they needed help with a few write ups. Oh and all SCIAC schools should have slots, it makes a big difference if every year you can get 2 kids with an 1100 (old sat system i know) and a 3.2gpa.

[Loggerville]

Also, So Cal has no D3 state schools that I know of other than UCSC, who seems to not care about being bad, this means every kid that goes to a SCIAC school needs 40G or to get a good aid package. That said, it's that's the same with NESCAC schools like Williams, or Amherst, but they also get slots for players which PP doesn't. 

bbf - you raise some interesting points.  However, the cost issue is a challenge for the majority of D3 privates schools, so I don't see that as a unique factor to the SCIAC.  Plus, with the depth of talent in CA I find it hard to believe that there aren't quality student athletes for your programs to recruit. 

Just as an aside, two of the top five scorers in the NWC have California ties.  Heu-Weller went to CMS and Curtiss is from Santa Barbara.  And as the PP program well knows, two seasons ago it was a CA-native back court of four players that pushed the Loggers over the Sagehens - Cross, Glynn, Curtiss, and Mendoza - in the NCAA's.

[Gregory Sager]

My belief is that if the top 3 SCIAC schools we'll say OXY, PP, and Cal lu historicly played a season in the mid-west that the better compitition would lead to better play, and they'd be competitive.

Competitive where? The midwest is a vast area as far as D3 is concerned, covering two whole regions (Midwest and Great Lakes) and parts of two others (West and South). Even if we're just talking about the Midwest Region proper, there's a huge spectrum there in terms of competitive levels -- ranging all the way from the CCIW (which by common acclamation is the second-best league in D3 after the WIAC in terms of overall strength) down to the SLIAC (which is probably one of the weakest leagues in D3). That's a huge range just within one region.

The biggest reason for SoCal D3's not competing at the same level of midwestern D3's is directly attributed to the Number of NAIA and Division 2 programs in SoCal. I played at Monmouth College in Monmouth, Il a very small town in west central illinois. From MC there was only one NAIA school within an hours drive, Bradley and Illinois State were the only two D1's within 2 hours drive and there were less than 5 (estimate b/c i can not remember exactly) JuCo's within a two hours drive. in Contrast there are three Major D3 conferences in a 2-3 hour radius that all have nationally ranked teams playing in them CCIW, MWC, SLIAC and the NIIA is also close enough for rural kids to know about. In illinois specifically one you get out of chicago there is literally nothing else in the state. And chicago doesnt even have a major college basketball program, unless you want to count Depaul. In illinois if you are not good enough to play at U of IL. then you go to Southeastern CC or you go D3.

In Socal if you cant go to USC or UCLA, then you go to one of the hundreds of Juco, which are all heavily nationally recruited b/c of the talent level. if you dont want to go the juco route then you go to one of the seemingly hundreds of NAIA schools or D2's in the area. The point is that the "basketball scholarship" or the myth of the full ride is what drives Socal kids away from D3's and towards "the money." Anyone who thinks that there is more "talent" in any sport, Especially bball, in a state outside of Cali is crazy. Kids in the midwest go to D3 schools b/c that is the extent of their options. kids in Cali, specifically socal, do not go to D3's b/c someone is always willing to offer kids the obligatory "bball scholarship."

NAIA institutions are the deathkill to Socal D3's......

Sorry, OFS, but there's a lot of misinformation in your post. First, keep in mind that it's dicey to compare the number of institutions of higher learning (at whatever levels) between two areas of the country without taking demographics into consideration. Southern California -- or, to be more precise, Santa Barbara, Ventura, Los Angeles, Orange, and San Diego counties, and the western fringes of San Bernardino and Riverside counties -- is one of the most densely-populated regions of the United States. The midwest, which covers a much broader area, is by contrast very sparsely populated. The area that you speak of in particular around Monmouth College, western Illinois, is sparsely-populated farm country (and what little population is there is shrinking). Right there your argument takes an apples-and-oranges turn for the worse.

Next, you're underestimating the number of jucos in the area. There are 26 NJCAA Region IV (northern Illinois) junior colleges, and 19 NJCAA Region XXIV (central and southern Illinois) junior colleges, and except for the ones in Chicago proper all of them recruit the entire state. Just take a look at the rosters of Sauk Valley, Blackhawk, Rock Valley, Kankakee, etc.

Chicago doesn't have only one D1 school. It has four within the city limits alone (DePaul, Loyola, Illinois-Chicago, and Chicago State), and two more within the greater metro area (Northwestern and Northern Illinois, although DeKalb is a bit of a stretch in terms of delineating the outer rim of the metro area). Schools from all across the country recruit in the Chicagoland area, because it's such a hotbed of prep hoops -- and that includes such other Illinois D1s as the University of Illinois, Eastern Illinois, Illinois State, Western Illinois, Bradley, and Southern Illinois.

Illinois has plenty of other four-year scholarship programs as well. Perhaps the best D2 conference in the entire country, the Great Lakes Valley Conference, has three members within the Land of Lincoln: Lewis, SIU-Edwardsville, and Quincy. There are two NAIA Division 1 conferences that have members within the state, the Chicagoland Collegiate Athletic Conference (Olivet Nazarene, Robert Morris - Chicago, St. Xavier, Illinois Tech, and St. Francis) and the American Midwest Conference (McKendree and Illinois-Springfield), and an NAIA Division 2 conference (Judson, Trinity International, and Trinity Christian). There's also an up-and-coming USCAA program that grants basketball scholies: Robert Morris - Springfield. Usually, although not always, the NCAA D2 and NAIA D1 programs beat out the local D3 schools for recruits -- which stands to reason, since they can give athletic scholarships and the D3 schools can't.

If you're talking about the greater midwest, then your comments about NAIA competition are even more off the mark. The midwest has no fewer than ten NAIA-2 leagues, as well as parts of two others. Southern California has one. The midwest has two NAIA-1 leagues. Southern California has one. Also, there are four full NCAA D2 leagues within the midwest, and the greater part of a fifth. Southern California has about a half-dozen state schools that are D2 members.

Such statements as, "In Illinois, if you're not good enough to play at the University of Illinois, then you play at Southeastern CC or you go D3," and, "Kids in the midwest go to D3 schools because that is the extent of their options" are just plain wrong.

[sciacguru]

OFS......I am right there with you on your statements.  The NAIA and D2 schools drastically hurt the SCIAC schools.  Look at Westmont, they just took it to CLU, but they and Concordia, barely got by the 2nd or 3rd best team in CCIW with Carthage.  From what I understand, AZUSA is legit, but I dont think any other team in the GSAC would finish 1st or 2nd in the CCIW.....this year.  But what it boils down to is the administration.  Yes, UPS has and is having success with SoCal players....but what you need to remember is that the NWC was once a national power conference in athletics as NAIA.  And that has carried over while being D3.  You can thank Linfield for that.  So the administration has continued to make athletics a priority or an important aspect of student life at their particular institutions.  Look at all of UPS teams (except football)....they all are successful because their administration allows it to be....and by administrtation....I mean financial aid and admissions by direct order of the president.  Those two offices in the SCIAC couldnt tell the difference between a football and a basketball and wouldnt care to either.  Basically, if an institution's president attends athletic events for enjoyment rather than to host alumni, then there is a pretty good chance the team's will be successful.  So next time you are at a SCIAC event.....any athletic event....look for the president.  I betcha UPS' and Illinois Wesleyan's president are around.

[Gregory Sager]

Look at Westmont, they just took it to CLU, but they and Concordia, barely got by the 2nd or 3rd best team in CCIW with Carthage.

In the interest of accuracy, I should point out that Carthage actually split with Concordia-Irvine. The Californians won the first contest by three points, while their Wisconsin-based counterparts took the rematch three days later by fourteen points. Westmont beat Carthage, 72-69 in overtime, in between the two contests between Carthage and Concordia-Irvine.

The early consensus is that Carthage is a middle-of-the-pack squad in the CCIW this season and not the second- or third-best team, although this is based upon early and thoroughly inconclusive evidence. They certainly haven't been playing like world-beaters since they returned from Hawaii.

From what I understand, AZUSA is legit, but I dont think any other team in the GSAC would finish 1st or 2nd in the CCIW.....this year.

That's very hard to say with any degree of accuracy or verifiability. Carthage is a bit of a mess right now, but nobody who follows the CCIW denies their talent. And yet they certainly did not dominate either Westmont or Concordia-Irvine. And I'd say that Azusa Pacific is a lot more than merely "legit"; they're currently ranked fourth in the nation in NAIA-1. The evidence provided by Carthage does sort of support your statement, but what I'm saying is that that evidence is meager -- especially in light of the fact that the CCIW has yet to play a single conference game.

Yes, UPS has and is having success with SoCal players....but what you need to remember is that the NWC was once a national power conference in athletics as NAIA. And that has carried over while being D3. You can thank Linfield for that.

... except that the NWC has not established itself as a national power conference in D3 basketball, which is the only sport germane to this discussion.

The NWC has been a D3 league for six years now. Not counting the games played between NWC members, the league has mustered a 6-6 record in the D3 tournament over those six years, with an overall point differential of +11. They have no Final Four appearances, and one Elite Eight appearance, in those six seasons. But take away their wins over the SCIAC's representatives, and the NWC's D3 tourney record falls to 3-6, with an overall point differential of -44. The six teams that beat the NWC reps? UW-Stevens Point in 2000, Chicago in 2001, Carthage in 2002, Gustavus Adolphus in 2003, UW-Stevens Point in both 2004 and 2005 -- all midwestern teams. The only team from the tall corn to succumb to an NWC team thus far is UW-Oshkosh, which was beaten by Lewis & Clark, 79-71, in the 2002 Midwest/West sectional semis.

The NWC has a long way to go to establish itself as a national power conference in D3 basketball.

You guys are certainly much more familiar than am I with the whys and wherefores of the SCIAC's inability to secure institutional support for its basketball teams. I have to say that I've enjoyed reading your hypotheses. I've learned a lot about the SCIAC institutions (mostly regarding their administrations' indifference to athletics) through this room.

[dj_hyphen]

The sky is blue.

Your post reeks of misinformation.  In the interest of accuracy, I should point out that the sky itself is not blue.  In actuality, light moving through the atmosphere combines with molecules in the air to scatter blue light back to your eyes.  Keep in mind that this same Blue Light program has traditionally performed very poorly in the NESCAC, only once winning the conference (the vaunted 1973 team led by Johnny Jumpshooter, a native of Ventura, CA by the way...a talent SCIACGuru no doubt remembers  ).  This year, the early consensus is that Blue Light is again performing poorly.  Nobody denies their talent, but the evidence provided in snowbird games played below the 37th parallel, on odd numbered Wednesdays, with AM start times, during Republican presidencies, indicates they have not been as impressive as you SCIAC posters may otherwise assume.  Perhaps your own lack of success in the tournament (may I remind you that the SCIAC is the D3 equivalent of the Big West conference at the D1 level...we scoff at your putrid existence) has clouded your ability to objectively look at the facts.  Such flippant statements as "the sky is blue" do not accurately tell the full story and diminish the hours of hard work Pat and myself have spent to operate this website.  I'm glad I can bombard every nether region of this board with longwinded posts to shine light on the historical and statistical framework that you may have overlooked. 

Oh...and Fosheezie...

[Sabretooth Tiger]

Oxy's past president, and current interim president, have been big sports fans and attend the games.  That does not mean that Oxy, or should, admit students who don't make the grade and set them up for failure.  It's damn hard to graduate from Oxy and it would be a disservice to the young man or woman who was admitted due to athletic talent if s/he didn't have the academic chops to succeed as well.

[Gregory Sager]

ROTFL, DJ Hyphen! 

[dj_hyphen]

  just messin with you man

[Gregory Sager]

Yeah, I know. And it was a hilarious sendup. Well played, sir!

[scandihoovian]

Hyphen - That was hilarious 

Sager - you're a good sport 

Now if I only knew what ROTFL meant I'd be in good shape 

[David Collinge]

Rolling On The Floor Laughing.

The 'T' is optional.

An alternative is ROFLMAO; I'll leave you to ponder the MAO part. 

[diehardfan]

And here I was, just thinking about the very fact that it would be so easy to make up a quote by someone, but someone beat me to the joke!

[diehardfan]

The SCIAC has done quite poorly in the preseason this year.

Actually Greg, it's the non-conference season... these games count, especially now that there are the extra Pool C bids.