MBB: Southern California Intercollegiate Athletic Conference

[Old Fighting Scot]

My belief is that if the top 3 SCIAC schools we'll say OXY, PP, and Cal lu historicly played a season in the mid-west that the better compitition would lead to better play, and they'd be competitive.

Competitive where? The midwest is a vast area as far as D3 is concerned, covering two whole regions (Midwest and Great Lakes) and parts of two others (West and South). Even if we're just talking about the Midwest Region proper, there's a huge spectrum there in terms of competitive levels -- ranging all the way from the CCIW (which by common acclamation is the second-best league in D3 after the WIAC in terms of overall strength) down to the SLIAC (which is probably one of the weakest leagues in D3). That's a huge range just within one region.

The biggest reason for SoCal D3's not competing at the same level of midwestern D3's is directly attributed to the Number of NAIA and Division 2 programs in SoCal. I played at Monmouth College in Monmouth, Il a very small town in west central illinois. From MC there was only one NAIA school within an hours drive, Bradley and Illinois State were the only two D1's within 2 hours drive and there were less than 5 (estimate b/c i can not remember exactly) JuCo's within a two hours drive. in Contrast there are three Major D3 conferences in a 2-3 hour radius that all have nationally ranked teams playing in them CCIW, MWC, SLIAC and the NIIA is also close enough for rural kids to know about. In illinois specifically one you get out of chicago there is literally nothing else in the state. And chicago doesnt even have a major college basketball program, unless you want to count Depaul. In illinois if you are not good enough to play at U of IL. then you go to Southeastern CC or you go D3.

In Socal if you cant go to USC or UCLA, then you go to one of the hundreds of Juco, which are all heavily nationally recruited b/c of the talent level. if you dont want to go the juco route then you go to one of the seemingly hundreds of NAIA schools or D2's in the area. The point is that the "basketball scholarship" or the myth of the full ride is what drives Socal kids away from D3's and towards "the money." Anyone who thinks that there is more "talent" in any sport, Especially bball, in a state outside of Cali is crazy. Kids in the midwest go to D3 schools b/c that is the extent of their options. kids in Cali, specifically socal, do not go to D3's b/c someone is always willing to offer kids the obligatory "bball scholarship."

NAIA institutions are the deathkill to Socal D3's......

Sorry, OFS, but there's a lot of misinformation in your post. First, keep in mind that it's dicey to compare the number of institutions of higher learning (at whatever levels) between two areas of the country without taking demographics into consideration. Southern California -- or, to be more precise, Santa Barbara, Ventura, Los Angeles, Orange, and San Diego counties, and the western fringes of San Bernardino and Riverside counties -- is one of the most densely-populated regions of the United States. The midwest, which covers a much broader area, is by contrast very sparsely populated. The area that you speak of in particular around Monmouth College, western Illinois, is sparsely-populated farm country (and what little population is there is shrinking). Right there your argument takes an apples-and-oranges turn for the worse.

Next, you're underestimating the number of jucos in the area. There are 26 NJCAA Region IV (northern Illinois) junior colleges, and 19 NJCAA Region XXIV (central and southern Illinois) junior colleges, and except for the ones in Chicago proper all of them recruit the entire state. Just take a look at the rosters of Sauk Valley, Blackhawk, Rock Valley, Kankakee, etc.

Chicago doesn't have only one D1 school. It has four within the city limits alone (DePaul, Loyola, Illinois-Chicago, and Chicago State), and two more within the greater metro area (Northwestern and Northern Illinois, although DeKalb is a bit of a stretch in terms of delineating the outer rim of the metro area). Schools from all across the country recruit in the Chicagoland area, because it's such a hotbed of prep hoops -- and that includes such other Illinois D1s as the University of Illinois, Eastern Illinois, Illinois State, Western Illinois, Bradley, and Southern Illinois.

Illinois has plenty of other four-year scholarship programs as well. Perhaps the best D2 conference in the entire country, the Great Lakes Valley Conference, has three members within the Land of Lincoln: Lewis, SIU-Edwardsville, and Quincy. There are two NAIA Division 1 conferences that have members within the state, the Chicagoland Collegiate Athletic Conference (Olivet Nazarene, Robert Morris - Chicago, St. Xavier, Illinois Tech, and St. Francis) and the American Midwest Conference (McKendree and Illinois-Springfield), and an NAIA Division 2 conference (Judson, Trinity International, and Trinity Christian). There's also an up-and-coming USCAA program that grants basketball scholies: Robert Morris - Springfield. Usually, although not always, the NCAA D2 and NAIA D1 programs beat out the local D3 schools for recruits -- which stands to reason, since they can give athletic scholarships and the D3 schools can't.

If you're talking about the greater midwest, then your comments about NAIA competition are even more off the mark. The midwest has no fewer than ten NAIA-2 leagues, as well as parts of two others. Southern California has one. The midwest has two NAIA-1 leagues. Southern California has one. Also, there are four full NCAA D2 leagues within the midwest, and the greater part of a fifth. Southern California has about a half-dozen state schools that are D2 members.

Such statements as, "In Illinois, if you're not good enough to play at the University of Illinois, then you play at Southeastern CC or you go D3," and, "Kids in the midwest go to D3 schools because that is the extent of their options" are just plain wrong.

Greg you cant start an argument by yourself.  I specifically noted my location in west central illinois and in socal, specifically riverside county area b/c that is what i am familiar with.  You my friend are way off in your argumentation.

First there are no major college basketball programs in chicago.  That is a fact unless you think depaul is a major basketball program.  I did not say chicago doesnt have any D1 programs.  hell riverside has a d1 team, what does that mean, absolutely nothing!!!

Next you talk about Juco's in Northern Illinois (only reputable town in area is Rockford) Central (peoria, bloomington and springfield- all towns smaller than riverside) and southern illinois (carbondale is 6-8 hr drive from chicago and the closest metropolitan area is 5 hrs. away in Missouri (stl))  so when i say there is nothing in the state outside of chicago, i was once again CORRECT.  Also in comparing college options do i need to talk about the (what i thought was obvious) difference between juco's and midwestern d3's academically?  Once a kid realizes he isnt major D1 potential, generally he looks for a good academic choice.  you talk about the D2 conference in illinois.  ha, Lewis is usually ok, but Edwardsville and Quincy are both seen as no better than the D3 schools in the area.  When i was at MC my junior year we were up 5 with two minutes left at Edwardsville.  we finished .500 in D3 competition that year.  point being that d2 conference may be good overall but two of the three illinois teams for lack of vocabulary generally suck...  Good D3 very or very bad D2.  hmmm...

So, no i wasnt talking about the greater midwest, only illinois.  i talked specifically about west central illinois b/c that is what i know, and please do not confuse what i am saying as opinion.  I only talk about facts, disagree if you like but look at my tag and you will see what i believe....

you guys are great

[David Collinge]

[...](carbondale is 6-8 hr drive from chicago and the closest metropolitan area is 5 hrs. away in Missouri (stl))[...] 

By horse and buggy, maybe.  Carbondale is less than 100 miles from St. Louis.  If you start by backtracking to I-57, you can get there in 2 hours. 

A misstatement of this magnitude casts doubt on the veracity of the rest of your "facts."

[Old Fighting Scot]

ill give you 3 hours    i may have mis estimated a bit.  unless you go ; to siuc there is not much reason to go to carbondale, thus i never have.....

[Gregory Sager]

Greg you cant start an argument by yourself. I specifically noted my location in west central illinois and in socal, specifically riverside county area b/c that is what i am familiar with. You my friend are way off in your argumentation.

"In Illinois, if you are not good enough to play at the University of Illinois, then you go to Southeastern CC or you go D3."

"Kids in the midwest go to D3 schools because that is the extent of their options."

Do those words look familiar to you? They should ... they're yours. You posted them in this room on Monday. And they're absurd. They leave the Land of Exaggeration in the rear-view mirror, and run a red light straight into downtown Wrongville.

Yes, you specifically noted your ties to Monmouth and to the Inland Empire. And, having done that, you proceeded to make generalizations about the entire state of Illinois, and, beyond that, the entire frickin' midwest. I'm not way off in my argumentation. I'm rebutting your arguments with points about the exact same geographic areas that you addressed in your first post.

First there are no major college basketball programs in chicago. That is a fact unless you think depaul is a major basketball program. I did not say chicago doesnt have any D1 programs. hell riverside has a d1 team, what does that mean, absolutely nothing!!!

Uh, excuse me ... DePaul is not a "major basketball program"? This will come as quite a shock to the other schools of the Big East, which welcomed the Blue Demons into their league this season. Unless you don't think that the Big East is "major basketball", either. And if 6-1 Loyola isn't a "major basketball program", either, then Purdue has a lot of explaining to do as to why they lost to a minor basketball program the other day. Unless Purdue and its Big Ten brethren aren't "major", either. And then there's Illinois-Chicago, which has beaten Georgia Tech (ACC), Mississippi (SEC), and Northwestern (Big Ten), all within the last three weeks. Unless those leagues aren't "major", either. Wait ... we've already covered the fact that the Big Ten isn't "major". Sorry. 

Your arbitrary judgments about "major"ness aside, your statement, "what does that mean, absolutely nothing!" begs the original question in context. In your original post you dismissed Chicagoland's various D1 programs out of hand right before your sentence about the U of I, Southeastern CC, and D3. Clearly, then, you're strongly implying that DePaul, Loyola, UIC, Northwestern, etc., are at the back of the line when it comes to recruits. And you could not be more wrong about that. If one of those schools wants a player and one of Illinois' D3 schools wants that same player, the D1 team gets him. Plain and simple. In other words, where D3 is concerned, the existence of those schools means a lot more than "absolutely nothing."

Next you talk about Juco's in Northern Illinois (only reputable town in area is Rockford) Central (peoria, bloomington and springfield- all towns smaller than riverside) and southern illinois (carbondale is 6-8 hr drive from chicago and the closest metropolitan area is 5 hrs. away in Missouri (stl)) so when i say there is nothing in the state outside of chicago, i was once again CORRECT.

First of all, have you ever been to Rockford? There's nothing reputable about the town at all. 

Second, what part of the words, "There are 26 NJCAA Region IV (northern Illinois) junior colleges, and 19 NJCAA Region XXIV (central and southern Illinois) junior colleges" did you not understand? Shall I type them out in big letters? Underlined? Would you like me to babelfish them into another language, or act them out with finger puppets? Let's try again. The state of Illinois has 45 jucos that have basketball teams. I don't care if most of those schools are out in the middle of cornfields somewhere. Their distance to large towns is completely irrelevant. They exist, they have basketball teams, and they draw basketball players from all across the state. Look at the rosters posted on their websites if you don't believe me. F'rinstance, North Park lost out on two recruits this year that chose rural Illinois jucos; one went to Spoon River CC and the other went to Sauk Valley CC. Both schools are located way out in farm country. And both of those recruits are city kids; in fact, they were Chicago Public League players. Conversely, NPU picked up a kid from Hamilton, IL (a hamlet in west central Illinois, right on the Mississippi River) who played for a year at John Wood CC in Quincy.

Location and distance are irrelevant. These jucos offer scholies to basketball players, and kids from all over the state use them.

Also in comparing college options do i need to talk about the (what i thought was obvious) difference between juco's and midwestern d3's academically? Once a kid realizes he isnt major D1 potential, generally he looks for a good academic choice. you talk about the D2 conference in illinois. ha, Lewis is usually ok, but Edwardsville and Quincy are both seen as no better than the D3 schools in the area. When i was at MC my junior year we were up 5 with two minutes left at Edwardsville. we finished .500 in D3 competition that year. point being that d2 conference may be good overall but two of the three illinois teams for lack of vocabulary generally suck... Good D3 very or very bad D2. hmmm...

First mistake: "Once a kid realizes he isn't major D1 potential, generally he looks for a good academic choice." Wrong. Some players put strong academics at the top of their list, but most will go wherever they can get a ride at a four-year school, or sustain their potential to get a ride at a four-year school. And that's where the jucos come in. They showcase players for four-year schools who're looking to add experienced recruits; most of the four-year schools in question offer scholies (D1, D2, NAIA). Yes, some juco players are there to get their grades up. But your sweeping generalization dismisses out of hand a large percentage of juco players, who happen to be decent students who are merely looking for a second chance at getting offered a ride at a four-year institution.

Second mistake: "Lewis is usually OK, but Edwardsville and Quincy are both seen as no better than any of the D3 schools in the area." Bzzt. Wrong again. Both teams made the D2 national tournament last season. SIU-Edwardsville is 9-1 this season. The Cougars went 23-9 last season and finished 15-5 in the GLVC, which as I said is the toughest league in all of D2. The SIUE team you played was an indie, and it was a pretty rock-bottom D2 indie at that. Notice the past tense in that last sentence. Since the Cougars hired coach Marty Simmons and joined the GLVC in '02 they've drastically improved their program. You need to update your knowledge, OFS. And Quincy? Currently 5-2, following on the heels of an 18-11, 14-6 GLVC season in '04-'05. Again, your take on them is badly off-target.

Can a D3 team win out for the services of a player who is also being wooed by one of these Illinois D2s? Yes. Will it happen most of the time? Absolutely not.

So, no i wasnt talking about the greater midwest, only illinois. i talked specifically about west central illinois b/c that is what i know,

Once more, with feeling:

In illinois if you are not good enough to play at U of IL. then you go to Southeastern CC or you go D3.

Kids in the midwest go to D3 schools b/c that is the extent of their options.

And, lest anyone think I'm aping Diehardfan's trick of altering quotes, check out for yourself that OFS wrote these words last Monday, timestamped 12:38:27 EDT.

and please do not confuse what i am saying as opinion. I only talk about facts, disagree if you like but look at my tag and you will see what i believe....

I am not confusing what you're saying as opinion, because it isn't opinion. It's simply wrong. It's an erroneous statement of facts.

As for your tag, I admire your self-confidence. What a shame that it's so badly misplaced in this instance. 

ill give you 3 hours    i may have mis estimated a bit.  unless you go ; to siuc there is not much reason to go to carbondale, thus i never have.....

It's two hours and 16 minutes via I-57 and I-64, according to MapQuest. Dunno, though, maybe D1 uses Microsoft Streets & Trips, just like D3. Is that where you got your three-hour estimate, OFS? 

Now look what you've made me do. I've gone on and on with one of this room's longest posts of the year, and I've regurgitated enough trivia to get my butt lined up in DJ Hyphen's crosshairs again. Curse you, OFS! 

[bballfan2]

I'll be Ok, I'm sorry I'll be honest, I don't really care about the sciac vs the nation debate; it will never be resolved on the board and posts about it are completely subjective unless the teams have played that season.

However, I do want to note that for the first time in years we don't have a redlands poster popping off about how they're going to win sciac. And I just want to say Redlands should change it up and play basketball. Currently, Redlands is awful there system at this point teams would rather play cal tech then them because against cal tech you're still playing basketball, not some glorified lay up drill, against dirty players, who take cheap shots, flop, and cry to the referees all game about how fast they make a 5 second call, or what's a charge.  I can't wait to see if they still claim to have the best fans in sciac when they're losing.

[digs]

  From MC there was only one NAIA school within an hours drive.

It has been a while but how far is it from Monmouth to the Quad Cities?  St Ambrose.  Or to Mount Pleasant IA, Iowa Wesleyan.  These have got to be close.

I am probably wrong on these 2... For those of you who are unfamiliar with the area the only thing within a hours distance of the great city of Monmouth is a store called Farm King.

[digs]

I almost forgot... great post DJ.  One of the all time greatest!!!

Greg--imitation is the highest form of flattery.

[Old Fighting Scot]

St. Ambrose in Davenport is the closest, it will take you a lil over an hour normally, and since the area probably has about a foot of snow on the ground by now maybe more....

Greg i am sorry that you didnt understand what i meant about major d1 basketball programs in chicago.  Depaul is the best team of that group, and they have not had anything to do with any national bball conversation since mark aguirre (sp).  Irvine beat stanford, does that mean they are a big time d1 program?

I am happy to hear quincy and edwardsville are doing well this and last year, good for them.  i will reiterate that i have mainly been speaking from my personal experience and i have been washed up for a long time.  Good to know someone can rebound, better than i could.  siue was last in the national tourney in 89 and quincy seems to have never been any good (i cant find a winning record on their site)

As far as you preaching about juco rosters.  You almost helped me prove my point.  Kids who cant go to U of I (metaphor for major D1 in the midwest) Generally will look toward Southeastern CC (metaphor for good illinois jucos) or D3 (Illinois has three very good D3 conferences)

You are correct in saying kids normally follow the money.  I am just trying to explain to you that If a kid knows he isnt big time, most will look to a program where they will be able to play on a good team and be great.  D3 schools from the CCIW and MWC always get kids like this, that is why they become dominant.  A good D3 program doesnt have D3 talented kids, they have D1 caliber (talent) kids that are too short, too skinny, or too nice.  But also too smart (grades, career goals past basketball) to waste time at a Juco.

In California the next best thing to D3's is NAIA (going back to how all this got started, before you threw your hissy fit...)  In my estimation the best D3 programs in America Would easily rival the very best Scholarship NAIA schools.  if the playing level was the same, but one school can offer you money and the other cant, you will follow the money.  In Cali, NAIA's play on the National Level regularly.  In the midwest (specifically)Illinois, D3's play on the National Level regularly. 

My point, In Socal there are many more NAIA or Juco options (that will compete nationally) than there are D3's.  In the midwest there are many more D3's that will compete on the National Level than there will be NAIA or Juco.  But yes you always have your few exceptions.  Feel free to take 3 hrs. cutting and pasting and pointing out the very few....

Really how long did your last post take?

[samiam]

Do those words look familiar to you? They should ... they're yours. You posted them in this room on Monday. And they're absurd. They leave the Land of Exaggeration in the rear-view mirror, and run a red light straight into downtown Wrongville.

I thought we were still trying to figure out how to get to Carbondale.

[Titan Q]

"If one of those schools wants a player and one of Illinois' D3 schools wants that same player, the D1 team gets him. Plain and simple."


Greg, sometimes D3 programs land student-athletes who get recruited by D1 schools.  D3hoops.com 1st Team All-American  Adam Dauksas, for example, was recruited heavily by Illinois-Chicago.  Dauksas went to a UIC home game where there were about 1900 people in the stands of an 8000 seat arena.  I remember Adam talking about that visit as a freshman at IWU when we interviewed him on WJBC.  He said something to the effect of, "Neither team had anyone who could make a 15 foot jumpshot and neither team really ran any offense...it was just one-on-one ball."  (I think that UIC team won the Horizon League and went to the tourney actually.)   Then Adam visited IWU where the 2600 seat Shirk Center was jam packed with about 3000 for a CCIW game, the band was playing, the student section was crazy, etc..  

When Adam commited to IWU, I wrote the following for IWUhoops.com...

http://www.iwuhoops.com/recruiting2002a.html#dauksas

Some quotes from that piece...

* "It is just a great school, with a great basketball environment.  I feel honored to have a chance to carry on the tradition that is already established."  

* "I was lucky to get a lot of D1 looks, but in the end I just felt more comfortable as a person at Illinois Wesleyan," said Dauksas.  "The level of play in the CCIW is as good as in many small Division 1 conferences, in my opinion."

Trost echoed those thoughts.  "Many of the really talented CCIW players can play at a higher level...sometimes Division 3 is just a better fit though. Adam is going to get a great education at Illinois Wesleyan, and he is going to be a vital part of what we're doing from day one. At some of those D1's he'd probably be asked to sit for two years. Adam wants to play basketball."  

* "I want to win CCIW Championships, and have a chance to win a national championship," he said.  "I consider myself a winner, and I am really looking forward to my career at Illinois Wesleyan."


For pure basketball reasons and many non-basketball reasons, Adam Dauksas decided to attend IWU over D1's like Illinois-Chicago, Chicago State, and Colgate and the D2 full-rides he had, like St. Joe's (Indiana).  I'm with you on 99% of what you are saying here, but not on that statement as-is.

[David Collinge]

Do those words look familiar to you? They should ... they're yours. You posted them in this room on Monday. And they're absurd. They leave the Land of Exaggeration in the rear-view mirror, and run a red light straight into downtown Wrongville.

I thought we were still trying to figure out how to get to Carbondale.

La la la-la la la la la la
Do you know the way to Carbondale?
I've been away so long
I ended up on Wrongville Trail.

Do you know the way to Carbondale?
I'm going back to find
hoops of some kind in Carbondale.

Illinois' a great big cornfield
No place there to play D1 or 2.
Takes a week, maybe two, to get to St. Lou.
Weeks turn into years, how quick they pass.
And all the stars that never were
are driving Deeres for ADM.

I've got lots of friends in Carbondale.
La la la-la la la la la la
There'll be lots of hoops in Carbondale.
La la la-la la la la la la
Do you know the way to Carbondale?
La la la-la la la la la la

[diehardfan]

David.. you have too much time on your hands... you seriously need to go to a basketball game with me, and eat my six spice oatmeal rasin cookies... oh wait... you're already going to do that! 

Gooo Cal Tech! 

[Gregory Sager]

Bob, you could've spared us the commercial for your alma mater. I knew that Dauksas was an exception. I could name other exceptions as well who've played for other CCIW schools. It's beside the point. The issue at hand is that OFS has dismissed out of hand the Chicagoland D1 programs with regard to recruiting Illinois players, and he was completely wrong in doing so.

[Titan Q]

How would I know you realized Dauksas and other past CCIW players were exceptions based on your statement, "If one of those schools wants a player and one of Illinois' D3 schools wants that same player, the D1 team gets him. Plain and simple"??

[Gregory Sager]

Greg i am sorry that you didnt understand what i meant about major d1 basketball programs in chicago.  Depaul is the best team of that group, and they have not had anything to do with any national bball conversation since mark aguirre (sp).  Irvine beat stanford, does that mean they are a big time d1 program?

You still don't get it. In fact, you've completely changed the thread of your argument. In your original post you dismissed the other D1 programs in the state as a part of your general argument that, in Illinois, it's the Illini, Southeastern CC, and then D3. This has nothing to do with how far those D1 programs have made it in the D1 tournament. That's an irrelevant matter. This discussion is about recruiting in the state of Illinois, and whether or not there is any competition with D3 programs in the state for good high school players. Stay on point, please.

Oh, and DePaul is a Big East team. Northwestern is a Big Ten team. I don't care if neither has been deep into March Madness since the Aguirre era; those teams are "big time" by any stretch of the imagination, simply by dint of the leagues in which they participate. End of story.

I am happy to hear quincy and edwardsville are doing well this and last year, good for them.  i will reiterate that i have mainly been speaking from my personal experience and i have been washed up for a long time.  Good to know someone can rebound, better than i could.  siue was last in the national tourney in 89 and quincy seems to have never been any good (i cant find a winning record on their site)

Doesn't matter. This is a present-tense discussion, and now you're falling back on past tense. You derided SIUE and Quincy in the present tense in your original post. You were wrong.

As far as you preaching about juco rosters.  You almost helped me prove my point.  Kids who cant go to U of I (metaphor for major D1 in the midwest) Generally will look toward Southeastern CC (metaphor for good illinois jucos) or D3 (Illinois has three very good D3 conferences)

Oh, so now Southeastern CC is a metaphor? That's rich! "Hey, Mom and Dad, I got offered a free ride from Southeastern Community College! I'm gonna play for the Fighting Metaphors!"

Illinois kids who can't go to the U of I will look in a hundred different places: Other Illinois D1s, Illinois D2s, Illinois NAIA programs, out-of-state D1s, out-of-state D2s, out-of-state NAIA programs, jucos of all shapes and sizes and locations, even out-of-state D3s (Jason Kalsow, anyone?), as well as Illinois D3s. I don't care if Southeastern CC has now magically become a "metaphor for good Illinois jucos", because your reductionistic argument is as wrong now as it was when you first posted it.

Oh, and Illinois doesn't have three good D3 conferences. It has one excellent conference (the CCIW), one pretty good conference (the MWC, and it needs to be said that most of the good MWC programs -- Lawrence, Ripon, and Carroll -- are in Wisconsin), one fair-to-poor conference (the NIIC, which is now in its final year of existence), and one truly awful conference (the SLIAC, which it shares with Missouri).

You are correct in saying kids normally follow the money.  I am just trying to explain to you that If a kid knows he isnt big time, most will look to a program where they will be able to play on a good team and be great.  D3 schools from the CCIW and MWC always get kids like this, that is why they become dominant.  A good D3 program doesnt have D3 talented kids, they have D1 caliber (talent) kids that are too short, too skinny, or too nice.  But also too smart (grades, career goals past basketball) to waste time at a Juco.

You could've stated that "play on a good team and be great" platitude without throwing in erroneous specifics about college basketball in the Prairie State, and I probably would've left it alone. A few points, though:

* The MWC is a pretty good D3 conference. It's not a dominant one. And, again, the overwhelming balance of power in that league is north of the Lombardi-Halas Line.

* "D1 caliber (talent) kids that are too short, too skinny, or too nice" is an oxymoron. Recruiting takes everything into consideration: Height, build, skills, temperament, etc. D1 coaches will sometimes take a player who is deficient in one area, because they feel they can augment that deficiency via redshirting or whatever. But if you've got top-notch skills for, say, the center position but you're 6'6", 220 instead of 6'9", 245, you're not a D1 player. You're a D3 player.

* Lots of good D3 players started out at jucos. I could introduce you to a few of them who have national championship rings on their fingers.

In California the next best thing to D3's is NAIA (going back to how all this got started, before you threw your hissy fit...)  In my estimation the best D3 programs in America Would easily rival the very best Scholarship NAIA schools.  if the playing level was the same, but one school can offer you money and the other cant, you will follow the money.  In Cali, NAIA's play on the National Level regularly.  In the midwest (specifically)Illinois, D3's play on the National Level regularly.

No hissy fit here. I don't hiss, and I don't have a cat or inflatable tires to act as a substitute.

The best D3 programs would easily rival the best scholarship NAIA programs if the playing level was the same ... well, yeah, and if we all were born with wheels instead of legs we could all just ride to the grocery store without using cars.  

Sure, in SoCal NAIA-1s are nationally competitive, and in the midwest D3s are nationally competitive. But are you familiar with the term, "Correlation does not imply causation"?

My point, In Socal there are many more NAIA or Juco options (that will compete nationally) than there are D3's.  In the midwest there are many more D3's that will compete on the National Level than there will be NAIA or Juco.  But yes you always have your few exceptions.  Feel free to take 3 hrs. cutting and pasting and pointing out the very few....

You've completely missed the point if you think that I was simply trying to come up with some exceptions to your original statement. The point is that your argument in toto -- in Illinois it's U of I, then Southeastern CC, and then D3, and that kids in the midwest go D3 because that's the extent of their options -- was completely wrong. What I was offering wasn't "exceptions"; it was a mountain of evidence proving that your theses were off-base.

Again, with regard to Cali NAIA-1s and midwestern D3s, correlation does not equal causation.

As for cutting-and-pasting, how else was I to deal with your argument? Put your quote all in one block and then rebut it all in one block? That's much harder to follow. Besides, how often on Posting Up do I have the chance to practice "fisking" somebody?  

Really how long did your last post take?

About an hour, all told. This one was much briefer in terms of the amount of time it took to construct.

How would I know you realized Dauksas and other past CCIW players were exceptions based on your statement, "If one of those schools wants a player and one of Illinois' D3 schools wants that same player, the D1 team gets him. Plain and simple"??

You wouldn't. It was an overstatement on my part. I should've used the same with-very-few-exceptions caveat that I used for Illinois D2s when talking about non-Illini D1s in the state. That was my fault. I just didn't see the reason to post a chunk of the Illinois Wesleyan program guide while pointing it out.