MBB: Southern California Intercollegiate Athletic Conference

[Pat Coleman]

So, kids who make the most of their second chance in Juco aren't welcome at the D-III schools?   They have to satisfy themselves with the directional or "states that aren't states" schools? 

They aren't welcome in your league, apparently.

[NWCer]

"Any other hoops team in the NWC come close to that Whitworth juco pipeline?  Has anyone noticed? "

D3 Ghetto, I think the next closest would be LC, a much more rigid and "better" school:

Joey Toboni, Foothill, All-Leaguer last year and 2 year starter
Gene Rivera, Butte, 2 time  All-Leaguer and 2 year starter
Tyson Pappenfus, Starter, All-League talent

and then there are 2 Div. 2 transfers:

Corey Allen, Western Oregon
Josh Kollasch, Western State

and 1 Div. 1 transfer:

Nick Thierry, Montana

Significant transfers were on a number of rosters this year in the NWC, UPS (Brown), PLU (Brandeberry), Pacific (Howe-all leaguer, HarrisonDavis, Hinderman), Linfield (Tesoro, Olson), Whitman (Faidley-all leaguer) George Fox (Campbell and Toetdemeir) and Willamette (Mitchell)

Good luck in Spokane SCIAC, it won't be easy, bring your snow boots...........

[sciacguru]

Man, I take one day off the site and it just blows up.  I wasnt expecting a debate on JC transfers in the NWC on the  SCIAC site, but then again we do have OxyBob as our heavy contributor, so nothing should surprise me.  Now my thoughts on the All-SCIAC TEAMS:

As an outsider I am not familiar with the Ted Ducey Award.  What traits/characteristics goes into chooseing recipients for this award?

The Ted Ducey Award is bestowed upon the senior player(s) who best exemplifies outstanding achievement in academics, athletics, leadership and sportsmanship. Congratulations to Jabarri Reynolds and Matt Loretz for being so honored.

That sportsmanship was evident when Jabarri Reynolds dunked the ball with 2 secs remaining, rather than holding the ball at half court, after CLU had obviously conceded the game on Friday night.  Evidently, a CLU player had a break away opportunity at the end of the game in their 19 pt win, but was held back by the coaching staff to just pull it out.  I guess he needed to improve upon his 2-7 shooting (1-4 FTs), banked 3 ptr, 4 turnover game.  Yes, congrats on the much deserved award.

I think its an absolute sham that Inniss did not receive 1st Team again this year.  Granted I only saw 4 games this year, but he was the go-to-guy/glue for the Kingsmen along with Arciboni (sp?).  I just find it interesting that some guys make 1st team from a 5th, 6th or 7th place team.  I guess they should change the ALL-SCIAC 1st Team to the MLB All-Star roster, where one player from every team should be represented.

I am not going to diminish the individual accomplishments of some of the other players, but in the case of Mr. Inniss, I must quote the Oxy student body..."Nuts and bolts, Nuts and bolts..."

[bbaddict]

Sciacguru -- it's not Oxybob, it's DIIIghetto that's pushing the debate on JUCO transfers.  I don't know why he doesn't just come out & say "Whitworth isn't as prestigious acadmically as Oxy" probably because we'd all agree with him.  But we're here for basketball --- that's the real game on this board.

And LogShow, before you start spouting stuff about playing time you should take a look at UPS' stats -- you can find them on the NWC site (individual stats by team).  Your coach has 5 guys he plays more than 18 min. per game & 8 that play less than 5!  Whitworth has 6 that play more than 18 mpg and only 4 that play less than 5!  And if you want to argue NWC stuff do it on our board not on the SCIAC board where your friends will stick up for you!

Sorry Sciac -- you're right -- this board is about SCIAC.

[NWCer]

I'm withca bbadict about discussing NWC topics on our board, but I just wanted to answer D3Ghetto's question.  But it's natural for our posters to crossover on these two boards considering the matchup on Saturday.

Any CLU fans have insight on how their guys are feeling today.  After getting beat in the first round of the tourney and then being left home today at the selection.  From previous posts it sounded as if the CLU coach was quite the advocate for the tourney, is he still feeling the same way?

[sciac_is_fun]

I too was surprised about the (lack of) CLU guard representation on the All-Sciac teams, but I come at it from another angle (as I shared before the teams were chosen).  I think Acerboni was (sad that I have to use the past tense now) every bit as important to that team as Inniss.  Acerboni actually took over the primary point duties this year - Inniss mostly played off the ball.  From my (admittedly limited) vantage point, he was the heart of that team.  But I guess a 6 ppg avg keeps you off the all-conference teams.   It's nice to see Owens recognized, but he's got two more years.  Would've been nice to see the senior, who was probably more important as a whole to the team this year.

good season for the Kingsmen...too bad it had to end the way it did. 

[West Coast Bias]

Wow what a tough break for Oxy.  I can't imagine seeing your name go up as a team with a first round bye and a 2nd round host, only to find out that you actually have to play one of the hottest teams around, who beat you by 15 in your last meeting, with a win sending you up to play the NWC champ in their gym 2 nights later.

A few random thoughts:

1) I think from the NCAA standpoint, where cost takes precedence over everything, this set up makes the most sense.

2) From strictly a seeding standpoint, Oxy got screwed.  Very similar in region winning percentages.  Oxy strength of schedule 98, Whitworth 322.  In the last West region rankings, Oxy 3, WW unranked.  

3)  No way you could send WW to PP.  PP has made a great run, but Cinderella still goes home at the end of the night in a pumpkin... Sending WW down to play at PP would be even more of a joke than sending Oxy to WW.

4) Really tough to hold conference tournament losses against the #1 seed in a 4 team setup.  To get the #1 seed, you probably had to beat most teams in the league twice, and we all know the cliche about beating a team 3 times.  To all you NWCers, this is why the NWC scrapped the 4 team tournament in 2001 in favor of the 3 team setup you have now.  If I remember correctly, in the first 5 years of the NWC tournament, the regular season champion won the conference tournament and AQ bid ZERO times.

5)  CLU's Innis should have been a first team selection.  Even over his own teammate Meier.  

6)  I believe the Ducey award is voted on by the players.  So obviously the people Reynolds played against felt he exemplified the qualifications of that award.  He dunked the ball, at the end of an emotional game, a game few gave them a chance to win against a team that had whooped them twice.  Damn that 22 year old for making a poor decision...

Thats all for now.  I'll be back eventually with more thoughts.

[Gregory Sager]

Whitworth is a good school.  We have enough jucos in SoCal to know that yes, some of those kids can take advantage of an opportunity and perform well in the classroom of a liberal arts school.  But 6 of them?  Former SCIAC coach Gary Stewart told a friend of mine when he was the assistant at Washington State he felt that the administration was making a mistake by pressuring them to not bring in the 5 juco transfers they wanted (school thought that was too many).   Give Coach Stewart the kind of administrative support that allows Whitworth to bring in 6 juco transfers and I bet he would tell you that he would have had more than one upset of Stanford there at UC Davis. 

I am just in awe that a DIII program at a good school has that big of a juco pipeline.  Hats off to their coach and AD.  I know Whitworth made the unorthodox move away from SAT emphasis but always thought it was well regarded and one of the better small schools in the region.  Every school has junior college admits.  Very few small schools have a significant percentages of their transfers from junior colleges.  Admission offices in good small schools like Whitworth typically watch those juco admissions pretty closely. 

If the basketball team at Whitworth is not getting preferential treatment, then I would expect Whitworth to have dozens of junior college transfers matriculating each year.  The football team at Whitworth lists only 1 more juco transfer than the basktball team.  Between the football and hoops teams that makes 13 juco transfers by my count.   None for the Whitworth women's hoops team but fortunately they looked out for the women's softball team by admitting 4 juco transfers. 

Any other hoops team in the NWC come close to that Whitworth juco pipeline?  Has anyone noticed?  Just so you know that this isn't sour grapes or snobbery, I am pleading with the  AD at Whitworth to apply for the next SCIAC opening.   We need that type of commitment to winning.

The insinuation that juco student-athletes are not academically up to par is not only insulting, it's frequently inaccurate. I can't speak to how it is on the West Coast, but in the midwest a lot of juco players are kids who came out of high school convinced that they could land a D1 scholie, never had an offer materialize, and then decided to go the juco route in order to turn the heads of some D1 coaches and belatedly get that D1 scholie. Two years down the road, a lot of those kids have a more sober and mature outlook and decide to take a more realistic approach to their schooling and to basketball.

Yeah, the "I'm looking to get a D1 ride" mentality makes for a lot of me-first, selfish basketball on the juco level, but it doesn't necessarily mean that those kids are academically deficient.

More importantly, the skyrocketing cost of tuition at most private schools means that an education at your typical D3 institution just isn't affordable for a lot of families. Two years at a junior college, followed by a transfer into a good four-year school for the junior and senior years, becomes a much more economically feasible way for many kids to get a good education -- especially kids from working-class backgrounds. I know whereof I speak, because North Park caters to a lot of working-class students from Chicago and the inner-ring suburbs who excelled in the classroom in high school but couldn't afford a private four-year college -- so they took the juco route for their first two years and then transferred to NPU. Those kids tend to do very well at North Park, and the school is a much better place for having them there.

I'm with nwhoops1903: Stereotypes are a bad way to make an argument.

[nwhoops1903]

DIIIghetto your either just a condescending book licker and/or you're trying to make excuses for why your Conf. team might just get hammered this weekend. 

Great quotes to ponder:

"I am just in awe that a DIII program at a good school has that big of a juco pipeline."  In awe?  Wow! What do you say at sunsets? 

"Admission offices in good small schools like Whitworth typically watch those juco admissions pretty closely."  Why bother with splitting the paragraph?  Next sentence...
"If the basketball team at Whitworth is not getting preferential treatment, then I would expect Whitworth to have dozens of junior college transfers matriculating each year."  Please feel free to slide a tasteless accusation in there with an absurb conclusion.

Pathetic. 

[bbaddict]

Yeah, what Sager said!

[DIIIghetto]

I love our thread.  Sagers, if you thought I was saying that student-athletes from junior colleges could not do well at good four year institutions then you misinterpreted my musings.  I'm too familiar with juco's and your point about the cost of higher education to ever make such a flawed statement.   I am not going out on a limb when I say, however, that by and large, a kid who decides not to go to a good 4 year school at the chance that he will latch on with a big school athletic program is generally not a great admit for the rigors of most DIII academic instutions.  The better junior college admit is the one you described, who, but for the costs or other circumstances, almost had no other choice except go the juco route.  Clearly those situations are not mutually exclusive and there will on occassion be the kid with good grades who just thinks he should be in the Show, but also knows that the costs of four years at a small school is not something that works for him/her coming out of h.s.

Those 6 juco admits at Whitworth could all be exemplary students for all I know.  If they are, more power to them and the coaching staff for flipping the traditional model on its head.    I was serious that I want the Whitworth AD in the SCIAC.  With more juco's and great juco basketball than anywhere in the country, if admissions offices in the SCIAC warm up to juco transfers, we wouldn't be relegated to the DIII ghetto for long. 

NWhoops, 6 juco transfers is high for any basketball program, D1, 2 or 3.   Look at the bright side, Whitworth gets a chance to issue some payback for two painful losses it took a couple of years ago in a SoCal swing.  I really liked your squad when they came down.   Good coach and tough players.

[tigersports]

Snobbish was the word I was looking for and couldn't come up with (probably those first two years I went to a "state that's not a state" school).  Thank you.  Tell me there's any real difference between lower division courses at a juco or at a private school.  Maybe fewer students in a class or women with fewer tats, but that's about it.

[tigersports]

Somehow I doubt that Roy Dow is going to be pulling in a bunch of players from down the street at Pasadena CC.

He'd whup up on more than Gallaudet and LIFE Bible if he did though.

[LogShow]

I understand that this is SCIAC board, but since the comments were made on this page I will answer on this page, but this will be my last comment about strictly NWC issues (even though the original comment was semi-related).  I didn't post it on this board so my "friends" could stick up for me.

And LogShow, before you start spouting stuff about playing time you should take a look at UPS' stats -- you can find them on the NWC site (individual stats by team).  Your coach has 5 guys he plays more than 18 min. per game & 8 that play less than 5!  Whitworth has 6 that play more than 18 mpg and only 4 that play less than 5!  And if you want to argue NWC stuff do it on our board not on the SCIAC board where your friends will stick up for you!

First off addict I don't know why your posts are filled with such anger, and you always feel like you have to jump into a discussion and take an opposing view point to mine.  Please tell me your not still bitter about a the fact the UPS ended Willamette's season.

My post mearly stated that WW plays very few guys major mins, I wasn't saying that was a good thing or bad.  But your counter argument is foolish.  Everyone that has seen WW play knows that Symes, Williamson, and Naknamra will go 40 mins if they can (meaning not in foul trouble), Riley will go about 28-30, and Jurich will go about 20.    Now you might claim that the stats say different...and they do, for the entire season, but those are greatly inflated due to games against UC Santa Cruz when bench players got to start and play the majority of the game...except Symes and Willamson both went over 35mins.  To get a true grasp on mins I think you have to look at the conference stats.  In conference WW had 6 guys in double digit mins, and only 1 other guy above 6mins a game.  I have ommitted Montgomery from that list because you must know that if a player has a DNP his mins per game are not affected.  So Montgomery played major mins for 4 games and the DNPed all but 5 other ones where he played approx 1 min/game.  Yet his mins/game is still above 10.  

Sorry for the long post...wish I could add humor in it better like OxyBob does!

[nwhoops1903]

...Those 6 juco admits at Whitworth could all be exemplary students for all I know.  If they are, more power to them and the coaching staff for flipping the traditional model on its head.    I was serious that I want the Whitworth AD in the SCIAC.  With more juco's and great juco basketball than anywhere in the country, if admissions offices in the SCIAC warm up to juco transfers, we wouldn't be relegated to the DIII ghetto for long. 

NWhoops, 6 juco transfers is high for any basketball program, D1, 2 or 3.   Look at the bright side, Whitworth gets a chance to issue some payback for two painful losses it took a couple of years ago in a SoCal swing.  I really liked your squad when they came down.   Good coach and tough players.

Those losses were tough and very closely contested.  I think a game like that might very well be played Sat.  Good luck to the SCIAC team that makes the trip.  The WW AD does a great job, but I might mention that it starts with the Board of Trustees, then the President's office, then the AD and faculty to have a school that has a progressive and relevant vision toward the campus life of the modern undergraduate.  College athletics is fun, healthy and brings different communities together in a safe environment.