MBB: Southern California Intercollegiate Athletic Conference

[sac]

Just a few thoughts to add on the GSAC.  NCAA DII basketball has more or less disappeared in SoCal (most of the former DIIs have moved to DI over the last ten years or so).  As a result, I think many DII/low level DI type players wind up in the GSAC, a lot of them after a couple of years at the JC level.  As OB pointed out, their games are like death matches.  With the exception of Azusa, none of them play football, and they take their basketball very seriously.  After all, it's the only show in town, especially for the GSAC members that draw strict social/behavioral boundaries for their students.

I have not seen a lot of NAIA D1 ball outside of the GSAC, but my guess would be that they can hold their own with just about anybody at that level.

I believe the GSAC has 3 teams ranked in the NAIA I poll and two others getting votes.

http://naia.cstv.com/sports/m-baskbl/spec-rel/011209aac.html

[Gregory Sager]

OB, I'm not saying any of the above (you, sarcastically, are).  I'm making the much simpler point: don't read TOO much into ANY one game.  (Plus, point two, don't draw such absolute conclusions from seeing any team once.)

Why are you even bothering anymore, Chuck? OxyBob's paranoia is so full-on that he automatically shuts out anything posted by a CCIW fan. I posted a lengthy explanation in the Top 25 room this past week countering another CCIW fan, cardinalpride, and explaining why I thought the CCIW was probably getting too much support in the last poll. In spite of that, OxyBob saw fit to vent at me in his screed in this room the other day as being yet another inveterate CCIW homer.

It's just not worth it. I enjoy OxyBob's posts for the most part, and he's a great source of game information, but his personal vendetta regarding the Top 25 poll and the CCIW in particular has pushed him to the point where he's beyond being reasoned with on those subjects.

I have not seen a lot of NAIA D1 ball outside of the GSAC, but my guess would be that they can hold their own with just about anybody at that level.

In looking at recent NAIA-1 tournament results on the NAIA website, it appears that the GSAC reps have usually held their own in that tournament. That, plus my memory of those Calvin losses to Biola and Azusa Pacific in 1999-00 and the struggles that good midwestern D3 teams have had against Westmont over the years during snowbird trips, leads me to have a healthy ongoing respect for the quality of ball played by the GSAC.

[OxyBob]

NCAA DII basketball has more or less disappeared in SoCal (most of the former DIIs have moved to DI over the last ten years or so). 

Beg to differ: The CCAA is D-II. This season Oxy played CSU-Dominguez Hills in an exhibition game, and La Verne played Cal State LA. Lots of good basketball played in that conference. Last season the CCAA had the crazy conference tournament where the Nos. 1-4 seeds were all beaten in the first round by Nos. 5-8.

OxyBob

[TeeDub]

There was one wacky game several years ago between Cal Baptist and Redlands where CBU scored like 190 points in a game when UR was still the Traveling Freak Show and running the Grinnell System. Jordis Rocks would certainly remember that one and can add his two cents about SCIAC vs. GSAC.

OxyBob

Hey, that's completely unfair...they only scored 181. 

Traditionally, I would say that the GSAC is head and shoulders above the SCIAC (sans Hope International).  I believe that a top SCIAC school would have to play their best game every night to finish 5th in the GSAC.

[scandihoovian]

Beg to differ: The CCAA is D-II. This season Oxy played CSU-Dominguez Hills in an exhibition game, and La Verne played Cal State LA. Lots of good basketball played in that conference. Last season the CCAA had the crazy conference tournament where the Nos. 1-4 seeds were all beaten in the first round by Nos. 5-8.

OxyBob

You're right about the CCAA, I guess it would be better stated to say DII now has a diminished presence.  CSUN, Cal State Bakersfield, UC Riverside, and Cal Poly SLO were some of the former DII schools I was thinking of that have now gone DI.

[oldchap]

So to OxyBob (or anyone else), what's your take on the common Non-D3 west opponents, particularly in the NAIA?  Where would you slot Point Loma, Westmont and Concordia (Cal.)?  If they were in the SCIAC, would they be the top teams easily?  Competitive but not consistently stronger? Middle of the SCIAC pack?

I'd like to add in my two cents... Chapman which, as everyone knows, is not in the SCIAC, although they compete against these teams on a regular basis, and has demonstrated over the years that they could belong in the upper-tier of this Conference, plays against GSAC teams every year. This is a necessity, being an Independent, in order to fill your schedule.

This year (08-09) they haven't played any GSAC teams as of yet.  They will play Vanguard and Hope International around mid-February. The last time Chapman beat Vanguard was in 2003 but they did beat them 68-57. Chapman also won against Vanguard in 2002. Chapman has also beat Hope International every year in the last 6 years, but it seems that this team is the perennial loser in the GSAC (they're 0-6 so far this year).

Chapman also plays against NAIA division II teams such as West Coast Baptist and Golden State Baptist, but this is inferior competition generally for SCIAC members as well as Chapman and Chapman ends up winning virtually every single time.

The whole reason for my post here is to toot Chapman's horn a little. While a lot is being debated about whether CLU or Claremont should receive votes this year, I would argue that if they do, then Chapman does deserve some votes too. Over the last 6 or 7 years, It seems that whether it is receiving votes for top 25 consideration or getting a Pool B bid for the playoffs, Chapman doesn't seem to get the "mindshare" necessary to get there. I've heard the argument about strength of schedule and certainly it is a valid one. But if Chapman manages to beat Vanguard this year, or at least play on par with them, then I think they definitely deserve better consideration.

[LogShow]

Oxybob, I am listening to the UPS-WW game broadcasted by Castle...enjoying him calling them the Whitworth Pirates...and of course all of the great advertisments

[OxyBob]

Oxybob, I am listening to the UPS-WW game broadcasted by Castle...enjoying him calling them the Whitworth Pirates...and of course all of the great advertisments

Bob Castle is awesome. But it's not Whitworth Pirates, it's Whitworthpirates. And, yes, I always like to know where I can go when I have an upper extremity injury. And how is it that every business in Spokane seems to be located on N. Division St.?

Heck, many people will know I complained then, and joked about it since, when Pat and my alma maters faced off in the second round in the Mid-Atlantic, forcing the third game in ten days between the two squads.

Are you talking about the 1999 D-III NCAA Tournament which was won by UW-Platteville? If so then you're definitely joking. First, Catholic and Goucher didn't play 3 games in 10 days. They played a conference game on Feb. 6, a conference tournament game on Feb. 27, and a second round NCAA playoff game on March 6. Next, Catholic played Lebanon Valley in a first round playoff game and won. Goucher had a first round bye, and then played Catholic in the second round and lost. That's not even close to the instances of SCIAC teams playing each other in the first round.

Chapman also plays against NAIA division II teams such as West Coast Baptist and Golden State Baptist, but this is inferior competition generally for SCIAC members as well as Chapman and Chapman ends up winning virtually every single time.

FYI, West Coast Baptist is in the Association of Christian College Athletics, and Golden State Baptist is a member of the United States Collegiate Athletic Association, not the NAIA.

OxyBob

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

Heck, many people will know I complained then, and joked about it since, when Pat and my alma maters faced off in the second round in the Mid-Atlantic, forcing the third game in ten days between the two squads.

Are you talking about the 1999 D-III NCAA Tournament which was won by UW-Platteville? If so then you're definitely joking. First, Catholic and Goucher didn't play 3 games in 10 days. They played a conference game on Feb. 6, a conference tournament game on Feb. 27, and a second round NCAA playoff game on March 6. Next, Catholic played Lebanon Valley in a first round playoff game and won. Goucher had a first round bye, and then played Catholic in the second round and lost. That's not even close to the instances of SCIAC teams playing each other in the first round.

Bob - you need to start reading my entire post. Not sure the year, since it has been awhile, but Goucher and Catholic played the final game of the season against one another, then met in the CAC title game, and then played in the tournament against one another, it may have been closer to 12 days but it did happen - I would know - I announced at least two if not all three of the games at Goucher.

Secondly... read this entire quote again:

Speaking of Hoopsville, the examples of when you thought the SCIAC got screwed by the NCAA was very hot topic items on the show each of those years. And it was the work of Pat, myself, and others on that show and afterward of Raising Cain that actually got some answers, even if we didn't like them. The Mississippi problem was I am sure raised on Hoopsville and then followed up by Pat and others that made the changes necessary. I vividly remember talking and complaining about these issues on the show, so don't try and pretend that it would ONLY happen if it was in the CCIW. Heck, many people will know I complained then, and joked about it since, when Pat and my alma maters faced off in the second round in the Mid-Atlantic, forcing the third game in ten days between the two squads. The difference between the SCIAC and the CAC at the time, you could move the teams in the Mid-Atlantic FAR easier than the West.

Do you see the part "the difference between the SCIAC and the CAC at the time, you could move the teams in the Mid-Altantic FAR easier than in the West"? In an effort to spell it out for you, I was pointing out that the NCAA does not do as good a job of avoiding conference battles and match-ups in the first two rounds of the tournament, especially with conferences and teams they may have less "respect" for, as many of us would like. In the Mid-Atlantic, the effort is far easier to move teams if the thought is there. The SCIAC and the West Region; far harder thanks mainly to travel considerations.

We have talked to many coaches and administrators on Hoopsville who have talked about this problem, including battles with the NCAA to allow situations like sending a SCIAC team to be sent northwest to avoid a first round game with the other SCIAC team. That proposal was denied by the NCAA for travel cost reasons.

For some interesting insight on the process, here is an interview with NCAA Committee Chair Gary Grace. Parts may frustrate you furthur, but others will at least be interesting to hear.

[OxyBob]

Tonight's schedule, all game times 7:30 p.m.:

Oxy 4-9, 0-2 @ Claremont 10-3, 2-0
Oh, boy, it's time for Oxy's annual trip to Claremont, where the Tigers have lost 5 straight and 10 of the last 12 in the Temple of Doom. Maybe there will be another chemical spill on the 210 and I won't be able to get there in time to watch.

Whittier 8-5, 2-0 @ Caltech 1-12, 0-2
Whittier started the season 0-4 but is 8-1 since and has won 6 straight. Make it 7 after tonight.

Pomona 5-8, 2-0 @ Redlands 4-9, 0-2
Pomona has won 3 in a row. Redlands gave Claremont all it could handle in the SCIAC opener, but wasn't ready to go against Whitter and got swamped.

La Verne 5-8, 1-1 @ Cal Lutheran 9-4, 1-1
Cal Lutheran's first home game after 4 straight on the road, where the Kingsmen went 2-2. CLU and ULV had some common D-III nonconference opponents: The Leopards beat Tufts while CLU lost to the Jumbos, but ULV lost to UC Santa Cruz while the Kingsmen beat the Banana Slugs.

Not sure the year, since it has been awhile, but Goucher and Catholic played the final game of the season against one another, then met in the CAC title game, and then played in the tournament against one another, it may have been closer to 12 days but it did happen - I would know - I announced at least two if not all three of the games at Goucher.

Never happened.

For some interesting insight on the process, here is an interview with NCAA Committee Chair Gary Grace. Parts may frustrate you furthur, but others will at least be interesting to hear.

Gary Grace!? Hahahahahahahahaha! For two years in a row that guy and his lame committee couldn't even release a tournament bracket with the correct pairings! Hahahahahahahahaha! Thanks for the morning laugh.

In an effort to spell it out for you, I was pointing out that the NCAA does not do as good a job of avoiding conference battles and match-ups in the first two rounds of the tournament...

The rules don't require avoiding same conference match-ups in the second round, only the first round:

Pairings and Site Selection
Once automatic qualifiers are identified and the Pools B and C teams are selected, the following guidelines should be followed:
• Teams will be grouped in clusters according to natural geographic proximity. Teams will then be paired according to geographic proximity. A team may be moved to numerically balance the bracket if geographic proximity is maintained. Teams should be paired and eligible sites should be selected according to geographic proximity (within 500 miles).
• Teams may be seeded on a regional basis using the regional selection criteria. However, geographic proximity takes precedence over seeding.
• Teams from the same conference do not have to play one another in the first round as long as geographic proximity is maintained.
• The highest-seeded team that meets all selection criteria (and after a review of the submitted host materials) will be selected as the host institution, provided geographic proximity is maintained.

"Teams from the same conference do not have to play one another in the first round as long as geographic proximity is maintained," is otherwise known as the "SCIAC Exception."

OxyBob

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

OxyBob - not saying Grace and his committee are perfect, but knowing some of the members on the national committee right now, I assure you that many of the issues we have had in the past are being addressed. At the same time, did you ever listen to the interview - then or now? At least listen to it so you can hear his answers to some issues. You blame people for not having all the information, listen to him so we can't say the same about you.

I find it often you are more interested in complaining and treating other opinions as if they were nuclear waste. Could you at least learn to have a constructive conversation!

As for the conference match-ups... I NEVER said it was a rule, but in plenty of conversations I have had with former and current committee members, they do make an effort to avoid conference match ups even in the 2nd round. Why? Because we all point out the fact that some very good conferences have very good teams eliminating themselves early on in tournaments. That point is certainly understood and I believe respected. But the reality is that travel considerations are a part of the equation and that is were the SCIAC usually ends up having problems with the tournament. Do I have a solution? Not with the current situation with the NCAA and travel? Do you have a solution, OB? I haven't heard one that is viable. If you have one, tell us and then tell the NCAA and maybe your idea can be considered - unless you act them in the same manner you attack people who don't agree with your thoughts.

[Pat Coleman]

OB would rather name-call than listen to your silly little interview, Dave.

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

True, true, Pat. True, true!

[West Coast Bias]

A few interesting topics that I would like to tackle.  Seems like a lot of Chicken or Egg arguments here...

1) Chapman has been and is just like the teams in the top half of the SCIAC each year (OXY CMS CLU and PP recently).  But they play a much weaker schedule.  It is a catch 22 for them.  They need to have a stand out record to get in as a Pool B independent, so they play La Sierra, West Coast Baptist, Santa Cruz and U Dallas multiple times each year.  Even the GSAC teams they play are the two worst in the league.  I am yet to see them play Concordia Azusa or Biola.  But their weak schedule really hurts them in the QOWI when it comes to NCAA time.  Tough being an independent.

2)  The Midwest/East coast folks says to the SCIAC "win more games in the NCAA and you will get more respect".  Fair enough.  But every year the SCIAC has to play their 1st round games on the road.  Home teams win more often than road teams.  I don't care if it is a snowbird team coming west over the breaks or a SCIAC team going east for the tournament.  Home teams win more.  

3)  When the SCIAC does get 2 teams in, they play each other in the 1st round.  Tough for a conference to gain respect with a deep run when one of your two teams WILL be out in the 1st round.  The solution?  There isn't one.  The NCAA has made it clear that travel is the first criteria for 1st round pairings.  Tough pill to swallow?  Yup.  Unfair?  Maybe.  But it is the system.  It is not going to change.  Constantly complaining about it just makes the West Coast look like whiners.

4)  I enjoy the top 25 polls as much as anyone.  And it is always nice to see some West Coast representation on there.  I am grateful to the voters.  They take their job seriously and do the best they can.  But at the end of the day, the D3hoops top 25 poll doesn't mean anything.  Its not like this is the football BCS where the polls count toward postseason births.  Enjoy the poll for what it is.

5) I feel for my man Oxy Bob.  Life is tough for D3 teams on the West Coast.  Its tough when you feel like something you are passionate about is being discredited and degraded.  I have been reading these boards for awhile and it sure does seem like the posters from the other regions rationalize their losses with the "travel" argument when they lose out west.  And then scoff at the SCIAC when they make the same claim about NCAA tournament games.  But unlike my boy Bob, I don't think the NCAA, D3Hoops and the rest of the basketball community is conspiring to keep the SCIAC down.  There are no real answers to these debates, which is why they are fun to discuss.  

At least the SCIAC hasn't followed Utah's lead and filed an anti-trust lawsuit against the NCAA...

[oldchap]

What??? Oxy beat Claremont??? At Claremont???     I'm surprised there's no comments in here yet...

That sure is going to add some fuel to the Top 25 debate... Hey, Chapman beat both teams anyway, so...  8)