MBB: Southern California Intercollegiate Athletic Conference

[Pat Coleman]

And of course there are some (OxyBob) who never saw an arguement that wasn't worth making and certainly quick to run from when challenged.

Baloney. Any place, any time, any subject, any forum. You name it, pal.

I'm waiting for a response here from the other night, where you name-called my argument instead of countering it. When I challenged you ... well, crickets so far ...

http://www.d3boards.com/index.php?topic=4097.msg1015867#msg1015867

[scandihoovian]

Last season Oxy was the regular season champ and Pomona was the conference tournament champ and got the AQ. (Cal Lutheran likes to think they were "co-champs" with Oxy, but the Tigers beat the Kingsmen twice in conference, so we all know the real truth, right, scandihoovian?)

Both teams lost at Whittier.  From there, CLU couldn't do what they needed to against Oxy, and Oxy couldn't do what they needed to against the rest of the conference.  So the real truth is that, while the head to head match up favored Oxy, equal 11-3 records make them co-champs. 

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

Last season Oxy was the regular season champ and Pomona was the conference tournament champ and got the AQ. (Cal Lutheran likes to think they were "co-champs" with Oxy, but the Tigers beat the Kingsmen twice in conference, so we all know the real truth, right, scandihoovian?) The NCAA paired Oxy and Pomona in a first round knockout game, and Oxy won a close one at the end. So one SCIAC team cannibalized the other. In the second round Oxy traveled to Whitworth, which got a first round bye. Oxy was only down 6 with 7:30 to go, but they couldn't get over on a darned good Whitworth team. Disappointing, yes, but not a bad result.

(Aside No. 1: Can you imagine the crying, moaning, and whining which would occur if the NCAA paired the CCIW regular season conference champ with the CCIW tournament champ in a first round game, and then made the winner travel to play, say, the WIAC champ, which got a bye? God almighty, you'd hear the high-pitched screeching all the way from Bloomington! Titan Q and Gregory Sager would co-author a book, OUTRAGE!: How the NCAA Screwed the CCIW and Ruined D-III Basketball Forever!)

In 2006-07 Oxy was the SCIAC champ and got the AQ. This was the year of the infamous Mississippi College Debacle. After screwing up the parings, the NCAA went through a bunch of curious (read: bullsh!t) machinations by which No. 2 seed Oxy played host and No. 1 seed Mississippi College in the first round. Oxy played without its SCIAC Player of the Year and D3hoops All-West Region center Sam Betty and lost badly to MC, but even with Betty the Tigers probably would have lost to MC, which was a great team that I saw win the Tom Byron Classic at Westmont, an impressive feat for a D-III team.

(Aside No. 2: Imagine the indignation and fury which would have ensued if the NCAA pairings screw-up had happened to a CCIW team. Oh, the humanity!)

In 2005-06, Claremont won the conference and made the NCAA tournament as the SCIAC AQ, and Oxy also made the field. Again, the SCIAC teams were paired against each other in the first round. CMS got further screwed by having to play the game at Oxy, which has a bigger gym, rather than in its own Ducey Gym, where the Stags enjoy a decided home court advantage. Oxy won a close, low-scoring game. So again one SCIAC team cannibalized the other. In the second round Oxy traveled to Puget Sound, which got a first round bye. Oxy led by 1 with under 6 minutes to go, but UPS ultimately won it by 8. Again, disappointing, yes, but not a bad result.

In 2002-03, Oxy went 14-0 in the conference, hosted Aurora in the first round of the NCAA tournament, and won. The Tigers then traveled to Buena Vista and won again, before losing to Gustavus Adolphus, which lost in the championship game to Williams. I'd say that was a success.

For starters, you named one year that was worth mentioning - the year Oxy lost to GA. Outside of that, the SCIAC team lost in the second round. I don't care if they were "not a bad result," it was a loss. How about proving the SCIAC is better than many feel along with the NCAA by winning on a road in a game that matters a TON! It really hasn't happened, expect to Buena Vista - a team I mentioned on several occasions on Hoopsville back in those days as a team that needed to prove something - and never did, especially in the playoffs.

Speaking of Hoopsville, the examples of when you thought the SCIAC got screwed by the NCAA was very hot topic items on the show each of those years. And it was the work of Pat, myself, and others on that show and afterward of Raising Cain that actually got some answers, even if we didn't like them. The Mississippi problem was I am sure raised on Hoopsville and then followed up by Pat and others that made the changes necessary. I vividly remember talking and complaining about these issues on the show, so don't try and pretend that it would ONLY happen if it was in the CCIW. Heck, many people will know I complained then, and joked about it since, when Pat and my alma maters faced off in the second round in the Mid-Atlantic, forcing the third game in ten days between the two squads. The difference between the SCIAC and the CAC at the time, you could move the teams in the Mid-Atlantic FAR easier than the West.

Frankly, now that I wrote this, and after re-reading your comment, I have decided that you really don't know what you're talking about when it comes to the SCIAC.

Well, you aren't giving me that much credit, but maybe because you don't know the back story. My brother attended and graduated from Redlands and was a pretty well known fan on the sidelines at Redlands games. As a result, I have picked his brain more than you can imagine about the SCIAC. Now that he has returned to the West Coast (though, in Tacoma), I am always asking for his thoughts from his friends still in the SCIAC and catching games, or other friends who are in the coaching ranks. That along with the number of interviews I have had with SCIAC coaches in the last few years, I feel I at least have an understanding of the conference.

Now, I am not saying I know the conference as well as you, but I don't expect you to have the knowledge I have with the Centennial, CAC, Landmark, or even the MAC or ODAC that I have. However, I would at least hope you have an understanding of those conferences the amount of reading and posting that you do on here. That being said, do you read any of the postings on other sites? It isn't easy to read that much, but you may get to understand there is more than just the CCIW, the WIAC, and the SCIAC in the world that is Division III Basketball.

Speaking of "ducks:"
http://www.d3boards.com/index.php?topic=4097.msg1009803#msg1009803 - you never answered the question until I challenged you here just yesterday!
By the way, in that post you made a smart-ass comment about a "fluff" piece that you claim I did with Rich Rider. Let me check, did I interview a SCIAC team? You aren't even happy when I interview a coach from your conference. Though I can't remember right now, I believe the interview also conincided with another interview I did with the guy who did a documentary about CalTech, so to get another coach's point of view was worthy. Thanks for listening at least once in awhile. I suggest listening as often as possible.

I apologize if you think I have written so much, but after weeks of reading your posts and seeing your lack of following up on posts from those challenging your thoughts, I got tired of sitting down and not writing anything. I will make sure I check with the "edit police" before I post in the future.

[TeeDub]

My brother attended and graduated from Redlands and was a pretty well known fan on the sidelines at Redlands games.

...and just possibly the best fan they have ever had...his antics are classic and he was well-connected to the players.

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

WOW... didn't know someone actually knew who I was talking about! Impressed!

[scandihoovian]

Tough one for the Kingsmen last night, as the Stags used their always tough D to hold serve at home.  Sounds like getting to the Temple of Doom was as bad as playing there.  Here is the game write up from the VC Star.

[OxyBob]

Last night's scores:

Pomona 70, Oxy 39
P-P: David Liss 26, Justin Sexton 10 pts and 10 rebs
Oxy: Jack Hanley 11
Halftime: P-P 40-12
Rebounds: Oxy 50-34
Records: Pomona 5-8, 2-0, Oxy 4-9, 0-2

A chemical spill on the eastbound 210 thwarted my drive to Pomona, and I suppose I should thank the driver of the overturned semi for sparing me. Oxy only shot 18% and scored 14 points in the second half in the Tigers' loss to Cal Lutheran, and followed that up last night with a 17% and 12 point first half against Pomona. Meanwhile, the Sagehens are now healthy and at full strength and have won 3 straight.

La Verne 90, Caltech 25
ULV: Pierre Baker 12
CIT: Matt Dellatorre 10
Halftime: ULV 50-13
Rebounds: ULV 28-15
Records: La Verne 5-8, 1-1, Caltech 1-12, 0-2

La Verne led 22-0 at 13:30. Everyone got playing time.

Whittier 92, Redlands 61
WC: Travis Crow 22, Marcus Gibson 13, DaMon Perry 12, Keegan Hoover 11 pts and 10 rebs, Jonathan Saucedo 10
UR: Dan Selway
Halftime: WC 61-26
Records: Whittier 8-5, 2-0, Redlands 4-9, 0-2

Whittier shot 61.5% FGs in the first half, including 9-for-15 on 3s. Nice to see that Dan Selway's broken foot has mended and he's back playing for the Bulldogs.

Claremont 59, Cal Lutheran 55
CMS: Jason Toney 12, Connor Faught 11
CLU: Kyle Knudsen 21, Greg Grimm 16, Andy Meier 10
Halftime: CMS 29-28
Rebounds: CMS 27-24
Records: Claremont 10-3, 2-0, Cal Lutheran 9-4, 1-1

SCIAC game of the night at Claremont. In the first half the Stags led by 10 at 11:40, but the Kingsmen cut it to 1 at halftime. In the second half Claremont led by 7 with 1:30 to go, but Greg Grimm's 3-ball with 29 seconds left cut the lead to 2. Austin Soldner and Connor Faught hit a couple of FTs to preserve the win for CMS.

Saturday's schedule, all game times 7:30 p.m.:

La Verne 5-8, 1-1 @ Cal Lutheran 9-4, 1-1
Pomona 5-8, 2-0 @ Redlands 4-9, 0-2
Whittier 8-5, 2-0 @ Caltech 1-12, 0-2
Oxy 4-9, 0-2 @ Claremont 10-3, 2-0

Oooh, I see that there's a Pat Coleman Throwdown and a Dave McHugh Rejoinder. My response upcoming. Stay tuned.

OxyBob

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

Oooh, I see that there's a Pat Coleman Throwdown and a Dave McHugh Rejoinder. My response upcoming. Stay tuned.

What?! Is that a word and what have I exactly "rejoindered?".

You make the term "drama queen" an understatement.

[OxyBob]

And of course there are some (OxyBob) who never saw an arguement that wasn't worth making and certainly quick to run from when challenged.

Baloney. Any place, any time, any subject, any forum. You name it, pal.

I'm waiting for a response here from the other night, where you name-called my argument instead of countering it. When I challenged you ... well, crickets so far ...

Sorry you don't like it but yes, over the course of 10 games teams change. Ask Oxy -- they trailed La Sierra for much of the second half, never led by more than five (at 13-8) and won by three at home in their opener. Then they go on the road a month later and lead almost the entire game (last trailed at 17:36 of the first half) and lead by two possessions or more for almost the entire second half, putting it away at the end. Who's to say that two teams that played in November can't have a different result later in the season?

Cal Lutheran-Carthage. Played Nov. 24, about 10 games ago for each. What have the teams done since? Recently, Cal Lu lost to Tufts and Carthage beat Augustana. (Also, our SCIAC voter tells me CMS is the best team in the league, so I am voting for CMS instead of Cal Lu, who I voted for the previous week.)

Cal Lutheran lost to Pacific, Buena Vista and Tufts. (Last night they lost to CMS but that wasn't part of the discussion.) With those three losses, I agree that CLU shouldn't have been getting Top 25 votes. That wasn't my beef. I disagreed with the exhaltation heaped on Carthage by a poster because Carthage beat Augustana. It goes back to the circular reasoning and unreasonable and misplaced self-fulfilling expectations of CCIW boosters. Augustana is proclaimed to be great, so if Carthage beat Augustana then Carthage must be great, too. Sorry, I saw Carthage play, and they weren't that great. In fact, they were just OK. So if Carthage beats Augustana, then Augustana ain't that great, OR Cal Lutheran must be pretty darn good. You can't have it every which way.

I think you're right about Claremont; they appear to be the best team in the SCIAC, though the whole league is not the same as last year. By the way, thanks for mentioning Oxy as an example, because the way they're playing it's going to be a long time before they are part of any Top 25 discussions. In fact, the way they're playing they may be part of a discussion that's too horrible to even think about.

OxyBob

[OxyBob]

Oooh, I see that there's a Pat Coleman Throwdown and a Dave McHugh Rejoinder. My response upcoming. Stay tuned.

What?! Is that a word and what have I exactly "rejoindered?".
You make the term "drama queen" an understatement.

Yes, rejoinder is a word, but it's a noun, not a verb. Relax, I'll get back to you shortly.

OxyBob

[Pat Coleman]

So if Carthage beats Augustana, then Augustana ain't that great, OR Cal Lutheran must be pretty darn good. You can't have it every which way.

Or Carthage is a different team now than it was on Nov. 24. In the real world, teams don't play exactly the same every single night. That's why filing a Top 25 ballot is so difficult and why the results don't always match every single head-to-head result, Bob.

[TeeDub]

So if Carthage beats Augustana, then Augustana ain't that great, OR Cal Lutheran must be pretty darn good. You can't have it every which way.

Or Carthage is a different team now than it was on Nov. 24. In the real world, teams don't play exactly the same every single night. That's why filing a Top 25 ballot is so difficult and why the results don't always match every single head-to-head result, Bob.

Pat, this statement is right on the money.  It is the simple, subtle truth that often gets lost in the "who's better than who" argument.

[OxyBob]

So if Carthage beats Augustana, then Augustana ain't that great, OR Cal Lutheran must be pretty darn good. You can't have it every which way.

Or Carthage is a different team now than it was on Nov. 24. In the real world, teams don't play exactly the same every single night. That's why filing a Top 25 ballot is so difficult and why the results don't always match every single head-to-head result, Bob.

Perhaps. There's no way anyone would have voted much for Villanova back in 1985. After all, they were a different team when they lost twice to Georgetown. Or were the Hoyas a different team when they lost to the Wildcats in the NCAA final? I get confused.

OxyBob

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

Either way, OxyBob, there was a difference in the teams - proving the point further!

[TeeDub]

So if Carthage beats Augustana, then Augustana ain't that great, OR Cal Lutheran must be pretty darn good. You can't have it every which way.

Or Carthage is a different team now than it was on Nov. 24. In the real world, teams don't play exactly the same every single night. That's why filing a Top 25 ballot is so difficult and why the results don't always match every single head-to-head result, Bob.

Perhaps. There's no way anyone would have voted much for Villanova back in 1985. After all, they were a different team when they lost twice to Georgetown. Or were the Hoyas a different team when they lost to the Wildcats in the NCAA final? I get confused.

OxyBob

In the first round of this much-anticipated bout between PC and OB, OB is obviously still stunned by the sharp jab landed earlier...Round 1 goes to PC