MBB: Southern California Intercollegiate Athletic Conference

[West Coast Bias]

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I wonder if the trip out west may have had something to do with the outcomes. Are there return trips planned to the Midwest??
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Hmmm... Current temperature in Storm Lake IA - 27 degrees.  Current temperature in Kenosha WI - 9 degrees. Current temperature in Appleton WI - 13 degrees.  Current temperature in Decorah IA - 10 degrees. Current temperature in Thousand Oaks CA - 74 degrees.  Current temperature in Pasadena, CA - 74 degrees.  Current temperature in Claremont CA - 70 degrees...

Doubt you will be seeing any return trips to the Midwest in December anytime soon.

And why would the SCIAC teams travel to the Midwest in December, when they already know they are going to have to go back out there to play in March? 

[Pat Coleman]

When was the last time a SCIAC team played in the Midwest in March, though? Not sure that theory holds.

[West Coast Bias]

When was the last time a SCIAC team played in the Midwest in March, though? Not sure that theory holds.

Its not a theory...it was a joke.


Sorry PC, I will make sure all my comments are serious and antagonistic in the future.

[Pat Coleman]

I was trying to play off your joke by reminding you that the SCIAC hasn't gotten that deep in a while now.

[Gray Fox]

When was the last time a SCIAC team played in the Midwest in March, though? Not sure that theory holds.

Didn't Oxy go to BV a few years ago?

[David Collinge]

When was the last time a SCIAC team played in the Midwest in March, though? Not sure that theory holds.

Didn't Oxy go to BV a few years ago?

That was 2003.

Of course it must be kept in mind that the national tournament is different for the west coast teams than most everyone else.  Often the west coast teams cannibalize one another in a west-coast-only regional, leaving just one team standing to go to the "Midwest in March."  And it seems to me that the SCIAC and NWC teams that make the draw are usually tougher than the run of the mill teams than get in from points further east, so that west-coast-only (or west-coast-and-Texas, same analysis applies) regional tend to be tougher top to bottom than one with the SLIAC champ or NEWMAC champ or whoever in it.

Then the surviving west coast team has to go to the "Midwest in March," since scarce travel dollars effectively prevent a west-coast sectional.  The last, and perhaps only, west coast sectional was at UPS in 2004, and that was a grouping (UPS, UW-SP, Lawrence, and Sul Ross) that was going to cost a bushel basket of travel dollars wherever it was played.  Applying Titan Q's home court advantage argument, it becomes even tougher for that west coast team to survive the "Midwest in March."

The SCIAC argument has always been that the tournament is not strictly a level playing field for their heroes, not that there's any readily available solution.

Nothing new here, I know, I just wanted to save OxyBob the trouble of typing it in. 

[frodotwo]

My comment was made tongue in cheek, knowing that the Midwest teams schedule those games to get out of the cold and as a "reward" to their teams. I would not expect a return engagement due to the cost involved and who the heck would want to come to Wisconsin in the winter anyway   I believe any time a team has to travel 2000 miles or so to play another team on their home court it is an advantage to the home team. How much of an advantage depends on the quality of the players/team. And on any given night......  

[Titan Q]

When was the last time a SCIAC team played in the Midwest in March, though? Not sure that theory holds.

Didn't Oxy go to BV a few years ago?

That was 2003.

Of course it must be kept in mind that the national tournament is different for the west coast teams than most everyone else.  Often the west coast teams cannibalize one another in a west-coast-only regional, leaving just one team standing to go to the "Midwest in March."  And it seems to me that the SCIAC and NWC teams that make the draw are usually tougher than the run of the mill teams than get in from points further east, so that west-coast-only (or west-coast-and-Texas, same analysis applies) regional tend to be tougher top to bottom than one with the SLIAC champ or NEWMAC champ or whoever in it.

Then the surviving west coast team has to go to the "Midwest in March," since scarce travel dollars effectively prevent a west-coast sectional.  The last, and perhaps only, west coast sectional was at UPS in 2004, and that was a grouping (UPS, UW-SP, Lawrence, and Sul Ross) that was going to cost a bushel basket of travel dollars wherever it was played.  Applying Titan Q's home court advantage argument, it becomes even tougher for that west coast team to survive the "Midwest in March."

The SCIAC argument has always been that the tournament is not strictly a level playing field for their heroes, not that there's any readily available solution.

Nothing new here, I know, I just wanted to save OxyBob the trouble of typing it in. 

I don't think there is any question the SCIAC has it very tough in terms of the bracket.  I wish the NCAA would find the money (and maybe more importantly, the creativity) to be able to treat the SCIAC teams fairly.

That said, it's not like teams in the geographic midwest have an easy road.  My team, IWU, has been to the Final Four twice this decade.  Their road:

2001
vs Grinnell
@ Wartburg (IIAC champ)
vs Elmhurst, neutral (CCIW champ)
@ U. of Chicago (UAA champ, ranked #1 at time of game)

2006
vs Carroll, neutral
@ UW-Whitewater (WIAC champ)
vs Puget Sound, neutral (NWC champ)
@ Lawrence (MWC champ, 25-0, ranked #1 at time of game)

In 2003 as the CCIW's Pool A team IWU had to play @ #2-ranked Wash U in Round 2, then in 2004, again as an AQ team, IWU had to play @ #2-ranked Hanover in Round 2.

Last year the CCIW's Pool A team, Augustana, had to face Wash U in Round 2...or you could say, Wash U had to travel to Augustana in Round 2.  Brutal.  In trying to get to the Sectional round, would you rather face Augustana/Wash U in Round 2, or Whitworth?  (The Augie/Wash U game in the tourney went to OT...Wash U went on to win the title of course.)

Any fans of schools in Wisconsin, Illinois, Michigan, Indiana, Ohio, etc. can share examples of really, really nasty NCAA tournament roads too.

At the end of the day, it is about winning and losing in the tournament.  Yes, the SCIAC's bracket is going to be terrible every year...but it aint much easier anywhere else in the rest of the West, the Midwest, or the Great Lakes.

Now if the SCIAC teams could somehow get in that Williams/Amherst bracket...now they'd have something good cookin'.  The NCAA picks those guys up in limos and drives 'em all the way to the Salem Civic Center.

[Pat Coleman]

When was the last time a SCIAC team played in the Midwest in March, though? Not sure that theory holds.

Didn't Oxy go to BV a few years ago?

More than a few now. My point exactly.

And don't forget, when you're weeping and gnashing your teeth about the tournament and west coast teams, the year Pomona-Pitzer got a first-round bye with a lower seed. It occasionally cuts the other direction, though not often.

[Ralph Turner]

When was the last time a SCIAC team played in the Midwest in March, though? Not sure that theory holds.

Didn't Oxy go to BV a few years ago?

More than a few now. My point exactly.

And don't forget, when you're weeping and gnashing your teeth about the tournament and west coast teams, the year Pomona-Pitzer got a first-round bye with a lower seed. It occasionally cuts the other direction, though not often.

... but you want to play that Thursday game!

-- Hoopsville intro

[Ralph Turner]

When was the last time a SCIAC team played in the Midwest in March, though? Not sure that theory holds.

Didn't Oxy go to BV a few years ago?

That was 2003.

Of course it must be kept in mind that the national tournament is different for the west coast teams than most everyone else.  Often the west coast teams cannibalize one another in a west-coast-only regional, leaving just one team standing to go to the "Midwest in March."  And it seems to me that the SCIAC and NWC teams that make the draw are usually tougher than the run of the mill teams than get in from points further east, so that west-coast-only (or west-coast-and-Texas, same analysis applies) regional tend to be tougher top to bottom than one with the SLIAC champ or NEWMAC champ or whoever in it.

Then the surviving west coast team has to go to the "Midwest in March," since scarce travel dollars effectively prevent a west-coast sectional.  The last, and perhaps only, west coast sectional was at UPS in 2004, and that was a grouping (UPS, UW-SP, Lawrence, and Sul Ross) that was going to cost a bushel basket of travel dollars wherever it was played.  Applying Titan Q's home court advantage argument, it becomes even tougher for that west coast team to survive the "Midwest in March."

Yeah!  And what a bracket that one was!  The Larry's beat Sul Ross in OT and then turn around and lose to UW-SP in OT!

UW-SP could not host, because that was the year that the UWSP women were hosting!

That was almost an astrological convergence.  SRSU men hosted Pool B UDallas (13-12), a 490 mile bus trip of UDallas, and then SRSU upset Trinity in San Antonio!

Wasn't Lawrence's gym too small or something like that?

[Pat Coleman]

Indeed, Lawrence's gym was considered too small. (They changed their mind a couple years later.) UW-Stevens Point was hosting the women's sectional. That left SRSU or UPS.

And great games at that whole sectional. I loved it because games were three hours behind me when I was on the East Coast. In fact, listening to the Elite Eight game we realized that Lawrence's audio stream was full, so we "picked up" the feed and redistributed it, opening it up for more listeners.

(There's a benefit to being affiliated with the NCAA broadcast folks, sometimes. Call us Westwood Three.)

[Gregory Sager]

When was the last time a SCIAC team played in the Midwest in March, though? Not sure that theory holds.

Didn't Oxy go to BV a few years ago?

More than a few now. My point exactly.

Oxy's run to the sectional finals in 2003 was also only the second time ever that a SCIAC team had made it as far as the Elite Eight. The only other time that a SCIAC team made it that far was when Whittier reached the Elite Eight in 1981, as the Poets fell to eventual national runner-up Augustana in the round of eight, 89-87.

[sciacguru]

I believe CLU was ranked #1 in their respective bracket in 1994, got a 1st round bye, still had to travel to UC San Diego, and play the winner of UCSD/Pomona Pitzer.  Beat UCSD, then travel to St Thomas to play Greensboro, and then lost.  I even think CLU was ranked #1 in the country at some point that year.

http://odac.bridgewater.edu/hoopchamp/history/1994.htm

That may have been a field of 64.

[OxyBob]

Forget about the travel...what about the simple theory of "homecourt advantage"?  Don't we all agree that the home team enjoys some type of advantage in college basketball?  Bob, you continue to make it clear that you consider those individual games, played in the SCIAC schools' gyms, to be the end-all, be-all in the evaluation of the D3 teams that travel out your way.  But if, say, UW-Stevens Point and Cal Lutheran played a second game last year in Stevens Point, Wisconsin, isn't there a chance the game would have played out differently?  Or if Carthage and Cal Lutheran now squared off in Kenosha, WI?  And isn't there a chance that if you saw those games as well, you might have a different opinion of both teams in some way?

Of course home teams have a home court advantage, and some more than others, but I don't use it as yet another excuse for a loss. And I don't consider individual games to be the be-all, end-all of evaluating teams. What I get tired of is the constant devaluing and pooh-poohing that I hear every time one of these so-called vaunted Midwest or East D-III powers comes to town and gets beat by a SCIAC team. I've heard the same excuses for years: We had to travel, we were tired, we were distracted by the Hollywood sign, the sun burned our retinas, we couldn't get room service in the hotel, our star player didn't have his favorite teddy bear with him, and on and on. Heck, last season Wheaton made excuses for Kent Raymond, who you have compared to Michael Jordan (heh), after La Verne shut him down in the second half, and Wheaton WON the game!

As for speculating about what would happen if Cal Lutheran played at Carthage (or UWSP or wherever), I don't play the "what if" game. I have no idea what would happen, and neither do you. I do know that I saw Carthage at full strength against CLU, and the Kingsmen handled them with relative ease. I have seen some damn good D-III teams come out here to play -- Wooster, St. Thomas and Mississippi College come to mind -- but Carthage wasn't one of them. If that treads on your tender CCIW sensibilities, sorry. Maybe I should have been more impressed with Cal Lutheran for beating the Red Men.

You say, "The better team just won each time, which pretty much happens in every game."  I'm pretty sure you don't really believe that.  We can all think of dozens of examples off the top our heads of situations where a game between Team X and Team Y was dramatically different based on the venue.  And situations where a team, playing at home, beats a better team.

I watch a lot of basketball games, and unless there was some sort of flukey half court shot or bizarre play or outrageous call which decided the game, the team which scored the most points was the better team apart from the venue or the travel or any other factor. You like to factor in all of that stuff, especially to explain away a loss. I don't.

Applying Titan Q's home court advantage argument, it becomes even tougher for that west coast team to survive the "Midwest in March."
...

Nothing new here, I know, I just wanted to save OxyBob the trouble of typing it in.

Thanks, but I have my standard rants saved as macros.

OxyBob