MBB: Southern California Intercollegiate Athletic Conference

[nwhoops1903]

Did I miss a post explaining OldChaps spelling of Whitworth Witworth?

[oldchap]

Did I miss a post explaining OldChaps spelling of Whitworth Witworth?

Apologies to those fine people in Spokane. I thought Whitworth had more "wit" than they actually have...    As my quote says..."I'm a long way from home..." I made the corrections wherever I could.

[David Collinge]

Did I miss a post explaining OldChaps spelling of Whitworth Witworth?

Maybe it's for the same reason you (and others) spell Denison 'Dennison.' 

[nwhoops1903]

Blame it on that canned chili.

[sciacguru]

Wow, the all region teams came out...good stuff.  Except for the names on them...at least the West region teams.  Really??? 

Put someone on the All region team that didn't even make all conference in his own league.

David Riley 3rd team???  He was the 2nd best player on the #1 team in the country, and reigning conference player of the year.

And Mills, 4th leading scorer on his team, was not a center....Sanctivores (sp?) and Colston were......just to argue the G,G,F,F,C team format.

But the SID's know who the best players are.

[Pat Coleman]

David Riley 3rd team???  He was the 2nd best player on the #1 team in the country, and reigning conference player of the year.

And Mills, 4th leading scorer on his team, was not a center....Sanctivores (sp?) and Colston were......just to argue the G,G,F,F,C team format.

But the SID's know who the best players are.

Mills was the SCIAC player of the year. Is that also voted on by the SIDs? Or, perhaps, is it voted on by coaches?

He was nominated as a center, listed as a center on Redlands' roster. It's not possible for me to know if that's somehow not correct. Doesn't matter, as we would simply change the label on him and still have two guards, three forwards.

Riley -- he was that good, yes. Not better than Burtzel, Smith and Justin Riley, though, in our estimation.

[playball]

Wow, the all region teams came out...good stuff.  Except for the names on them...at least the West region teams.  Really??? 

Put someone on the All region team that didn't even make all conference in his own league.

David Riley 3rd team???  He was the 2nd best player on the #1 team in the country, and reigning conference player of the year.

The Conference Player of the year last year was Nate Montegomery.  He was also the West Region player of the year.  Riley didn't make an all region team.

[Pat Coleman]

Admittedly, I didn't try to figure out what he meant by that statement.

[sciacguru]

Wow, the all region teams came out...good stuff.  Except for the names on them...at least the West region teams.  Really??? 

Put someone on the All region team that didn't even make all conference in his own league.

David Riley 3rd team???  He was the 2nd best player on the #1 team in the country, and reigning conference player of the year.

The Conference Player of the year last year was Nate Montegomery.  He was also the West Region player of the year.  Riley didn't make an all region team.

Yes, Montgomery was the POY.  Excuse my frustrated response.  But putting him on the 3rd team is an outrage.  Justin Riley is a very good player, and probably the key to Chapman's success the past two years, but better than David Riley, I dont think so.  I understand this debate can round and round.  Compare stats....even head to head and I think D.R. comes out ahead.  I guess D.R. should have won the swing vote by writing for "Daily Dose."

David Riley 3rd team???  He was the 2nd best player on the #1 team in the country, and reigning conference player of the year.

And Mills, 4th leading scorer on his team, was not a center....Sanctivores (sp?) and Colston were......just to argue the G,G,F,F,C team format.

But the SID's know who the best players are.

Mills was the SCIAC player of the year. Is that also voted on by the SIDs? Or, perhaps, is it voted on by coaches?

He was nominated as a center, listed as a center on Redlands' roster. It's not possible for me to know if that's somehow not correct. Doesn't matter, as we would simply change the label on him and still have two guards, three forwards.

I would think in all of your D3 infinite wisdom that you could and would read through that about Mills and do some research.  I dont think it's the first time in a conference where the Most Outstanding Player didnt win the POY award, but maybe the most valuable player on the conference champion did.  I understand that voting for a conference POY, but all-region should be based upon how they produced (stats, win %, etc.) in their respective regions - in and out of conference play.  I am sure Mills was an outstanding leader for that team and a key to their success.

And I dont think the coaches voted Elmquist to the All-Sciac 1st or 2nd team....but evidently he is a 3rd team all-region performer.

[playball]

I would think in all of your D3 infinite wisdom that you could and would read through that about Mills and do some research.  I dont think it's the first time in a conference where the Most Outstanding Player didnt win the POY award, but maybe the most valuable player on the conference champion did.  I understand that voting for a conference POY, but all-region should be based upon how they produced (stats, win %, etc.) in their respective regions - in and out of conference play.  I am sure Mills was an outstanding leader for that team and a key to their success.

And I dont think the coaches voted Elmquist to the All-Sciac 1st or 2nd team....but evidently he is a 3rd team all-region performer.

Same thing happened last year when Ross Bartlett received a third team all west region nod even though he was a second team all conference guy.  I don't know how that works, but getting a higher award regionally than you do in conference seems a little off to me. 

As for David Riley, he is a good player in a good system.  Everyone on that team draws attention from defenses thus opening up shots for him.  Hes a great shooter, dont get me wrong, but on any other team where hes not surrounded by the talent he was, the numbers wouldn't be there.

[oldchap]

Well, to be sure, we would have to actually know what criteria are used to determine the All-Region teams.

As for the two Rileys, I can't speak for David Riley because I don't know him well enough as a player, but I can speak volume about Justin Riley. He is a strong competitor who is passionate about basketball and was truly a leader for the Chapman squad, especially in the last two years. He is probably going to play professionally in Europe for a few years. That's how passionate and how good he really is.

As a basketball player, he did it all: blocks, rebounds, scoring, passing, suffocating defense, he was relentless every single second he was on the court. And he is extremely athletic, jumps high, nimble, quick, strong without being slow or bulky. Perhaps the only thing he is missing is good 3-pt shooting skills. But that's probably due to the coaching style and what the team was made of. During Justin's tenure, Chapman needed length near the basket. It had plenty of decent 3-pt shooters outside (like Griffin Ramme).

In my opinion, Justin Riley has the whole package of strength of character, passion, high basketball IQ and skills, and superior physical abilities. He fully deserves to be an All-Region nominee and probably deserves better than second team. As for whether he is better (or not) than David Riley, I can't tell you that and none of you guys can either. You haven't watched enough Chapman and Whitworth games and you don't know both players personally to even pretend to make that determination.

[playball]

Just curious, do you really think that a players character off the court has anything to do with this voting?  If so, thats absurd.  It should come down to who are the top players. Thats it.  This isn't a beauty contest.

[Pat Coleman]

I would think in all of your D3 infinite wisdom that you could and would read through that about Mills and do some research.  I dont think it's the first time in a conference where the Most Outstanding Player didnt win the POY award, but maybe the most valuable player on the conference champion did.  I understand that voting for a conference POY, but all-region should be based upon how they produced (stats, win %, etc.) in their respective regions - in and out of conference play.  I am sure Mills was an outstanding leader for that team and a key to their success.

So the coaches don't know best either, is what you're saying.

And I dont think the coaches voted Elmquist to the All-Sciac 1st or 2nd team....but evidently he is a 3rd team all-region performer.

Perhaps, but I have no problems making a nod to Caltech having its best season in our lifetime.

Same thing happened last year when Ross Bartlett received a third team all west region nod even though he was a second team all conference guy.  I don't know how that works, but getting a higher award regionally than you do in conference seems a little off to me. 

Perhaps but the above point by sciacguru is certainly one way that can happen. And you have to remember, most conferences vote on their All-Conference team based solely on performance in conference games. But our awards take the whole year into account, or at least they are supposed to. (We don't ask for conference stats on our nomination form.)

If we left off the SCIAC player of the year I am sure there would be griping as well. No-win situation when a conference doesn't give its top award to its best player.

[oldchap]

Just curious, do you really think that a players character off the court has anything to do with this voting?  If so, thats absurd.  It should come down to who are the top players. Thats it.  This isn't a beauty contest.

I never implied "off the court" and you are right, it shouldn't be a popularity or beauty contest. However, I think character is an important part of how you can contribute in a team. You can make or break a team through leadership, positive attitude, strength against adversity, resiliency, enthusiasm, passion and focus. It's not all about stats. Besides, there are a lot of things a player can do on the court that just don't show up in the stats.

Then again, I have no idea how the committee chooses these players. I can only share my opinion.

[sciacguru]

Pat, you can turn the comments around however you want, or maybe you just dont understand, so let me list it out for you.

1.  The POY from the SCIAC was the 4th leading scorer on its team.  So I have a feeling that the coach that won the conference, selected the player that was most valuable to his team.  This has been standard in the SCIAC for years.  As for the remaining All Conference players, I believe the coaches select based upon their individual stats/play.....so I think they DO KNOW WHAT THEY ARE DOING.

2.  Evidently, you do not have faith in the coaches' ability to judge talent, since you allowed a player to be named All-Region by SIDs despite the fact that player wasnt even selected as an all conference player.  I am sure there are much better players in the region that are more deserving....maybe even from his own team, since one of his teammates did make All conference.  Sympathy votes need not apply.

3.  And as for leaving off the POY from the SCIAC, that is where your research needs to come in play with overall stats against regional competition, and base the All-Region teams upon that.  I would think that even you could see that someone who averaged 8.8 pts and 4.4 rebs may not be a viable candidate for All-Region and probably wasnt the conference's best player.  Once again, I think there are better players in the region that are more deserving, regardless of position.

How many teams nowadays actually play G,G,F,F,C...looks more like G,G,G,F,F or G,G,G,F,C.

And based upon your arguments, it sounds like the last two F/C spots were just fill ins.