MBB: Southern California Intercollegiate Athletic Conference

[WestCoastWhiner]

My bad - I was thinking about Gibbs from Otterbein.  Superstud from Cali. 

[diehardfan]

As a Cal Tech fan, I feel pretty safe from being a villain 

Shoot - I thought you'd pledged your allegiance to Cal Lu (we're young this year and could use the support  )

Big game for the Kingsmen tomorrow night vs. Westmont.  Final matchup vs. the evil empire from Montecito in Boston Garden West.

Lol... it is still early. I'm sure my allegiences can be bought. 

Thoughts?

if you're trying to say that the high school basketball talent pool in Southern California is weak, i really don't know what to tell you. that's absurd man

Yeah, I doubt that seriously. Jon Steven, probably the most talented player Wheaton has had in my time following hoops, was from Yorba Linda.

In fact, I just checked www.weather.com and discovered that it's 71 degrees and sunny in Los Angeles. Don't think for a moment that every 17-year-old kid in Wisconsin or Indiana or Iowa whose mother has ordered him outside to shovel the driveway isn't painfully aware of this sort of thing.

If I was a good high-school ballplayer in the midwest who had a yen to go away to school rather than go someplace local, I'd certainly give a thought to going someplace warm.

Yeah, the weather is pretty nice here. You could always comes visit me Greg. 

[Gregory Sager]

My bad - I was thinking about Gibbs from Otterbein.  Superstud from Cali. 

Gibbs was from Columbus, OH.

SoCal high school basketball may not be the be-all end-all that it is in Indiana and (to a lesser extent) Ohio, Illinois, Michigan, etc. (football-first states), but I doubt that there's a significant talent gap (if there is any at all) between these states and the Golden State.

DC, Illinois is very much a basketball-first state, not a football-first state. And that's an across-the-board (urban, suburban, rural) reality. It's true of Iowa and Wisconsin as well.

I don't know if there is a talent gap or not between SoCal and the midwest in terms of prep basketball. I tend to doubt it. But I would not be at all surprised if the average skill level is higher in the midwest, where the "gym rat" phenomenon is a way of life and the lack of outdoor recreational possiblities for one-third of the year tends to give kids tunnel vision with regard to the sport.

[OxyFan21]

I saw #1 ranked Illinois Weslyan play yesterday and they abosulutely dominated Wash U (St. Louis).  They are big, fast, and can shoot the lights out.  Their point guard made a couple of passes that were unreal.  It was an 8 point game at the half, but IWU dominated the first 5 mins of the 2nd half and the game was over.  They sent wave after wave...

If I'm not mistaken, this is the same Wash U team that beat Pomona and Clarmeont a few weeks ago by 10 points, or so...

As hard as this is for me to admit, having lived in the midwest, the east coast and SoCal, I can say now that the talent gap between the top teams here in the midwest (especially if IWU is any indication) is huge. 

When IWU took the court for warmups, it was evident that they would beat any SCIAC team by at least 20+ points.  Oh, if we could get some of these midwest studs for a visit to SoCal...

A side note...There must have been close to 350 IWU supporters who made the trip.  It was impossible to tell that it was a Wash U home game, save the logo on the court.

[bballfan2]

When they took the court for warm-ups?....yeah ok, and you're Jerry West. What's your thinking, oh my look at how that 6'4" player made a fluid left handed lay-up and now he hit 2 catch and shoot 3's in a row. I'm going to go out on a limb and say that you're wrong about them beating any team by 20+...I'd say more but I haven't watched them play. You probably didn't see the Wash U game's here though either. Wash U was lucky to get 2 W's, both games could have gone either way. CMS actually misses a freethrow to win with about 10 seconds left.

What I do know is: Oxy played Azusa within 20, PP's played UCSD tight, and that the quality of play for most teams changes dramatically between Thanksgiving and Christmas so comparing a team playing in December to a team playing in November is pretty much a waste of time if the team's any good.

Maybe you'll get to see the games between OXY, PP and Amherst those will be a much better indication of where teams are.

[David Collinge]

When they took the court for warm-ups?....yeah ok, and you're Jerry West.

Hmmm...Jerry West.  Born and raised in West Virginia.  More evidence of a talent gap? 

IWU is hardly representative of the quality of player at the better midwestern D3 programs.  Messrs. Dauskas, Amelianovich, and company are by all accounts special players who could be playing for some lower-echelon D1 programs.  It's not that any one of them is the best thing since sliced bread so much as it is that there's so many of them together at one time.  They are the exception.  The general case is that a top-tier midwestern team will have a very good player at post or wing, another at point, and a solid, well-coached supporting cast.  And frankly that describes the "Oxy Salem Pavers" of a few years ago; Finn Rebasso was as good a player at the D3 level as I have ever seen.

[Ralph Turner]

The only thing that will hurt Chapman's Tourny hopes if you're right is that they play at least 7 games against teams that are almost guaranteed victories. Home/Aways with La Serria, UC Santa Cruz, and West Coast Baptist. A game against Cal Tech. Also if whittier and La Verne don't do well in sciac that will hurt their strength. When I see their schedule I think they need at least 23 wins to be a guaranteed bid come tourny time.  They might do it though, they've looked good so far

The number of overall wins Chapman (or any other team, for that matter) has will have no bearing whatsoever upon whether or not the Panthers get a ticket to the big dance. It's regional wins that matter, not overall wins. Also, keep in mind that Chapman is an independent, and thus a Pool B contender. As those of us who follow the D3 scene are well aware, the bar is set a lot lower to get a Pool B bid than it is for Pools A and C.

Greg, the Pool B bar is lower than Pools A and C, but so far, I see Maryville and Lincoln as strong contenders for the first 2 of the 4 Pool B bids.

The NIIC is back in Pool B this year, but the conference seems to be weaker than in the last few years.   An inconsistent Bethany is trying to make some noise.

Chapman has 12 in-region games.  I can easily see them going 10-2 in the West Region (a possible loss to George Fox or an off-night vs. someone else.)  The critical factor for Chapman will be getting some lucky breaks on the QOWI numbers of their opponents, like lots of teams falling 10-10 (a 12-13 QOW point win) instead of 9-11 (a 10-11 QOW win) or a Chapman opponent eking out a 12-6 in-region record (14-15 QOW point win) instead of 11-7 (a 12-13 QOW point win).

The UC-Santa Cruz wins will pull their QOWI down.  I wonder if Chapman might not need 2 more in-region wins from a "D3Independents" post-season tournament to boost the winning percentage.

As for the Playoffs, I can see Southern California as being one of the 3 team brackets.

[OxyFan21]

bball fan2,

I may have been exagerrating a bit, but it was clear during warmups...from the sheer size, strength and speed aspect...that they were a superior team...I would just say that I was impressed.  December, January, or March, this team was pretty damn good.

I am in no way downing the SCIAC.  Anyone on this board knows where I stand...I'm just saying that "if" IWU played any of our teams...it wouldn't be that pretty.

[Mr. Ypsi]

bball fan2,

I may have been exagerrating a bit, but it was clear during warmups...from the sheer size, strength and speed aspect...that they were a superior team...I would just say that I was impressed.  December, January, or March, this team was pretty damn good.

I am in no way downing the SCIAC.  Anyone on this board knows where I stand...I'm just saying that "if" IWU played any of our teams...it wouldn't be that pretty.

No one should take that as a 'shot' at the SCIAC.  The IWU team IS special this year (while it is WAY too early to be thinking such thoughts, I admit that I've been wondering how they rank among the all-time d3 teams)!  As David Collinge noted, while no player is a top-notch all-timer (though Adam Dauksas DID outplay Dee Brown [last year's Big Ten POY] in their exhibition game), the combination of Dauksas, Amelianovich, the Jones twins, the Freeman twins, etc., all at the same time is AMAZING. 

Basically, NO one comes out of the CCIW without a loss, but I stated (before the season) that IWU had a 10% chance of running the table (including the national tourney) - I've now upgraded this to 25%.  Yesterday they apparently felt that WashU was uncomfortably close at -9 (shortly after half-time) - they promptly went on a 21-0 run!

Yes, whether or not these guys can run the table (or could beat all SCIAC teams by 20+), they are NOT to be confused with usual good teams in the Midwest (or anywhere).

[Titan Q]

IWU has 2 players who would start at Illinois State, the Division 1 team a mile down the street and member of the Missouri Valley Conference.  Coaches at ISU have told me that 6-3 All-American point-guard Adam Dauksas and 6-6 All-American wing Keelan Amelianovich would start for the Redbirds without question.  This duo would start for a lot of mid-major D1 teams, as ISU is.  6-7 junior post player Zach Freeman (17.3 ppg, 8.0 rpg) is probably the most talented of the 3 and could play for plenty of D1's as well (had a full-ride to D1 Murray State actually).

The 2005-06 IWU squad is a special team...maybe the most talented IWU squad I have seen in 16 years around the program.  And in that stretch IWU has won 8 CCIW titles, made 3 trips to Salem, and won one national title (1997).  We will see how it plays out and if the talent leads to a trip to the Final Four.  (The 1994-95, 1995-96, and 1996-97 teams were right there talent-wise.)

I agree that one should not gauge the caliber of midwest play by watching IWU...this Titan team is a couple notches above other good teams in the region.  I'd caution someone the same way when discussing any legit top 5 team - in other words, it wouldn't be fair to use Wooster or Wittenberg either.   IWU's combination of size and athleticism (both were really on display yesterday at Wash U) is something you just don't see much in Division III.  It has been a treat to watch this group play.

[Gregory Sager]

As for the Playoffs, I can see Southern California as being one of the 3 team brackets.

The special Thursday/Saturday three-team brackets seem to be designed with the west coast and your Texan compatriots in mind, Ralph.

Nice breakdown of the Pool B situation vis-a-vis Chapman. I hope you're going to be tracking this in the Bumblin' B's room again -- I get the feeling that the people who follow those teams really aren't on top of the nuances of the QOWI system.

[1992]

Tough weekend for Claremont.  Didn't do the SCIAC much good for them to go up to the Northwest and drop two.

Lowery seems to have Pacific improving, all the time he spent under Kats couldn't have hurt.

[digs]

Thoughts?

if you're trying to say that the high school basketball talent pool in southern california is weak, i really don't know what to tell you. that's absurd man

In my original statement I said " This means that coaches in the SCIAC may have less D3 level kids in their most likely recruiting base."   

I was not talking about high end talent.  I was also not talking about the talented kid who either can't go to a D3 school financially or academically or the talented kid that would rather go to USC because of the big school draw.  I was talking about the kid with talent that would more than likely seriously consider a D3 school.

I feel that there are more of these kids in the midwest.  We have abundant talent in the cities (Chicago, Indianapolis, Milwaukee, etc.), but also have a lot of small town kids with the skills to make an impact at d3.  These small town kids are also the ones that have been highlighted in the local paper for years for their athletic abilities, so they have grown to like the "fame" that athletics bring them.  They can continue this fame if they go to college x, y or z rather than going to the Big state schools and not playing. 

[dj_hyphen]

^^i can see that...but it's such a pointless arugment/analysis to make, because there's absolutely no way of proving which area has more Johnny Jumpshooters than the other.

I think each school in the SCIAC has its own recruiting issues, but for the two traditional powers, CMS and PP, it's really a combination of high academic standards and low emphasis by the administrations.  Pomona is literally one of the hardest schools in the country to get in to...and potential athletes don't get much, if any, advantage over the other applicants.  Theoretically, they should have an advantage by using Pitzer's lower standards (although, of course, those standards are still decent and higher than the rest of SCIAC, save CMS and Cal Tech...and probably equal to Oxy).  However, Pitzer's administration couldn't care less about athletics...they're too busy fleecing their students for every nickel and dime they can get, in a lame attempt to improve their now outdated facilities.  That said, it's obvious that the best chance to improve PP's recruiting is to utilize the unique situation the two schools are in.  These days, PP only gets one or two kids from Pitzer even playing on the team...and with the notable exception of Martin a few years ago and now Knowles, they're rarely impact players.  (**i've since been reminded that some of PP's best players over the years...Quinett, Hewitt, Lange, Duque, and the SCIAC version of JKidd, none other than Pacific's current coach, Lowery...all were Pitzer guys.  But I'm referring to the last 6 years or so.**)


Anyway...word is that Crumley, the shooter from CMS, decided to quit the team on their NW road trip.  Although he never had as much of an impact as expected, he was still one of the best shooters in the league and a big player for them.  With Saunders, the poor man's Matt Geiger, quitting a few weeks ago, and Zazulia last year...what's goin on over at CMS?  I'm waiting for Turner to try to transfer back to PP 

[Old Fighting Scot]

Why West Coast D3 is sub-par to the midwest.....

I grew up in the riverside area, played college ball in the midwest, coached h.s. ball in the midwest and here is my take......

The biggest reason for SoCal D3's not competing at the same level of midwestern D3's is directly attributed to the Number of NAIA and Division 2 programs in SoCal.  I played at Monmouth College in Monmouth, Il a very small town in west central illinois.  From MC there was only one NAIA school within an hours drive, Bradley and Illinois State were the only two D1's within 2 hours drive and there were less than 5 (estimate b/c i can not remember exactly) JuCo's within a two hours drive.  in Contrast there are three Major D3 conferences in a 2-3 hour radius that all have nationally ranked teams playing in them CCIW, MWC, SLIAC and the NIIA is also close enough for rural kids to know about.  In illinois specifically one you get out of chicago there is literally nothing else in the state.  And chicago doesnt even have a major college basketball program, unless you want to count Depaul.  In illinois if you are not good enough to play at U of IL. then you go to Southeastern CC or you go D3. 

In Socal if you cant go to USC or UCLA, then you go to one of the hundreds of Juco, which are all heavily nationally recruited b/c of the talent level.  if you dont want to go the juco route then you go to one of the seemingly hundreds of NAIA schools or D2's in the area.  The point is that the "basketball scholarship" or the myth of the full ride is what drives Socal kids away from D3's and towards "the money."  Anyone who thinks that there is more "talent" in any sport, Especially bball, in a state outside of Cali is crazy.  Kids in the midwest go to D3 schools b/c that is the extent of their options.  kids in Cali, specifically socal, do not go to D3's b/c someone is always willing to offer kids the obligatory "bball scholarship."

NAIA institutions are the deathkill to Socal D3's......