MBB: Southern California Intercollegiate Athletic Conference

[Mr. Ypsi]

OxyBob,

I love your posts!  Tell ya what, you guys fly out to Bloomington next year and we'll see what happens.   (Though, I confess, this is probably a matchup where the Titans are happy to always go on the road in December.)

I in no way dissed Oxy, but, yes, the Titans are exponentially better a month later in their college careers and playing at the Shirk rather than in SoCal.  I'm just saying don't put too much stock in comparative scores against a bunch of freshmen (especially early season on the road vs. later at home).  That's all.

BTW (and remember that I posted that you guys got screwed last March), how does the denigration of the deleterious effects of long-distance travel fit with the agonized cries over getting shipped to Miss Col?

[scandihoovian]

What cracks me up about the travel argument is that it's basically an acknowledgment that SCIAC teams would win more postseason games if we didn't get shipped out so often.  (Note to self: make instructional YouTube video for NCAA officials on how to put LAX in the destination rather than departure box on Expedia)

More postseason wins would make us a more respected conference, give us higher rankings and allow us to host more postseason games, which would allow us to win more postseason games.

More postseason wins would make us a more respected conference, give us higher rankings and allow us to host more postseason games, which would allow us to win more postseason games.

More postseason wins would make us a more respected conference, give us higher rankings and allow us to host more postseason games, which would allow us to win more postseason games.

More postseason wins would make us a more respected conference, give us higher rankings and allow us to host more postseason games, which would allow us to win more postseason games.

OK - I know that was a little annoying, but I guess that's just part of the frustration that comes with the geographical isolation between the west coast and the rest of the country when it's almost always the west coast team that gets shipped.  This is compounded by the fact that when we lose to ranked snowbirds we are told that's why we're taken lightly, when we beat the ranked snowbirds it's because they "had to" fly out here in December.  I'd love to know what factors were involved in the Stevens Point decision to schedule Cal Lu rather than Oxy, PP, or CMS.  My guess is it was supposed to be a comfortable game against a decent but not great team from a mediocre conference.  Oops...

[Pat Coleman]

Funny that the SCIAC's voter doesn't vote for any SCIAC teams, but has four WIAC teams on their ballot, along with three UAA teams, three CCIW teams ...

I find it a rare unbiased admission and kind of refreshing considering the bluster from fans in many corners, not just the SCIAC, who assume their own teams are unfairly ranked.

[Mr. Ypsi]

I in no way dissed Oxy

Sure you did. You said that Plattsburgh State, a team Oxy defeated, was overrated. Then again, perhaps Oxy is underrated. Think of that.

BTW (and remember that I posted that you guys got screwed last March), how does the denigration of the deleterious effects of long-distance travel fit with the agonized cries over getting shipped to Miss Col?

The beef was with the NCAA bracket pairings, and then the re-pairings, not with the plane ride. Nice try.

OxyBob

You've conveniently omitted that I also said Oxy was ON my (Posters' Poll) ballot - thinking Plattsburgh is overrated is in no way contradictory to my thinking Oxy is underrated.

But I do apologize - I forgot that the principal objection was that fiasco with the re-pairings, rather than not getting a home game (which I also thought you deserved).

[Gregory Sager]

When I go backpacking I always carry a copy of the Top 25 poll with me because it makes an excellent makeshift compass. When you take it out of your pocket it always points East.

Zing! Quip of the week, O-Bob!

[LogShow]

When I go backpacking I always carry a copy of the Top 25 poll with me because it makes an excellent makeshift compass. When you take it out of your pocket it always points East.

Zing! Quip of the week, O-Bob!

Yeah, I actaully laughed out loud!

[LogShow]

What cracks me up about the travel argument is that it's basically an acknowledgment that SCIAC teams would win more postseason games if we didn't get shipped out so often.  (Note to self: make instructional YouTube video for NCAA officials on how to put LAX in the destination rather than departure box on Expedia)

More postseason wins would make us a more respected conference, give us higher rankings and allow us to host more postseason games, which would allow us to win more postseason games.

OK - I know that was a little annoying, but I guess that's just part of the frustration that comes with the geographical isolation between the west coast and the rest of the country when it's almost always the west coast team that gets shipped.  This is compounded by the fact that when we lose to ranked snowbirds we are told that's why we're taken lightly, when we beat the ranked snowbirds it's because they "had to" fly out here in December.  I'd love to know what factors were involved in the Stevens Point decision to schedule Cal Lu rather than Oxy, PP, or CMS.  My guess is it was supposed to be a comfortable game against a decent but not great team from a mediocre conference.  Oops...

There are a couple counter arguments to that.  First off don't get me wrong, I am a west coast guy and would love for the national tourney to come out this way more often.  The way the SCIAC could host 1st round playoff games is to finish high (like 1st or 2nd) in the regional rankings.  How does that happen? well UPS did it for 3 straight years...You have to win lots of in-region games.  And having Cal-Tech and Laverne as 4 garunteed wins doesn't really help support the school's case. 
Also two of the past few years the SCIAC has gotten a home game (Pomona against Colorado College) then comes up the Pacific Northwest and gets smacked by UPS.  Thats only a 2.5 hour flight...hardly much travel.
Yes it would be nice if the 2 west coast teams didn't have to face off right away, but isn't likely.  It would be ideal if the top rated teams got to host, but at this level, thats not the first thing on the NCAA's mind.
So to wrap up this unnessicarily long and wordy post...schools on the West Coast can host playoff games, but they truely have to earn it in every sense of the word.

[Titan Q]

More nonsense. What, did IWU improve exponentially in the last 30 days while Oxy remained static? I was at the Oxy-IWU game. The Tigers ran the Titans out of the gym, and thoroughly throttled them. Must have been the plane ride, I guess.

OxyBob, my old friend, I can tell you that that was by far IWU's worst performance of the year.  Oxy was very good that night, and the Titans were just awful.  Consider...

* Illinois Wesleyan lost by 3 points @ #1 Wash U -- and Wash U is a better basketball team than your Tigers, that I'm sure of.

* Two days after the blowout at Oxy, the Titans won by 9 @ Claremont-Mudd-Scripps, which is where Oxy lost by 13 just two weeks later.

* Two days ago, Illinois Wesleyan led #10 Augustana by 5 with 2:50 to go, before losing a heartbreaker -- and I'd say Augustana is just a tad better than Oxy.

* Last week, IWU beat #24 Wheaton -- and Wheaton is just about a push with Oxy.  Wheaton and Oxy are very, very similar in makeup actually.


The IWU @ Oxy game was certainly a blowout, but I wouldn't get too tied to it in drawing conclusions about Oxy vs the CCIW teams.  It's not so much that IWU "improved exponentially in the last 30 days" (although the Titans, with a different starting lineup and playing with a lot more confidence now, are playing much better), but rather that sometimes the margin in head-to-head games ends up being more or less than it should be.  It happens all the time.  (Also consider that IWU's point-guard, who averages 35 minutes per game in CCIW play and has becomes the team's 2nd or 3rd most important player, was on the floor just 14 minutes @ Oxy due to severe foul trouble.)  Bottom line, the Tigers are not 21 points better than the Titans.

I am a voter in the D3Hoops.com poll, and I had Oxy #15 on my ballot this week, with the Tigers right around four CCIW teams (Augustana, Elmhurst, Carthage, Wheaton).  Occidental really impressed me and I think they'd be right in the middle of the CCIW title chase this year.  I do understand why other voters, who haven't seen Oxy, are still hesitant though.  Had your Tigers won @ CMS, they'd be ranked, and ranked pretty high actually.  The reality is, when you're trying to gain respect, you have to beat teams you are better than, and Oxy is better than CMS.

Keep winning and your boys will be in the poll very soon.  As I said during our broadast out there, I really think Oxy can do some damage in the NCAA tournament behind Whitman and that nice size you have.  Best of luck to the Tigers.


PS  9 inches of snow here in Bloomington, IL today - I'm ready to head back to Oxy for another beating.

[scandihoovian]

How does that happen? well UPS did it for 3 straight years...You have to win lots of in-region games.  And having Cal-Tech and Laverne as 4 garunteed wins doesn't really help support the school's case. 
Also two of the past few years the SCIAC has gotten a home game (Pomona against Colorado College) then comes up the Pacific Northwest and gets smacked by UPS.  Thats only a 2.5 hour flight...hardly much travel.

Fair enough.  Which is why I'm hopeful that some of our non-conference success this year will pay off (yes I know that IWU and Plattsburgh are not in our region) but at least they are wins against good D3 teams people know instead of SoCal NAIA teams people are less familiar with.

OxyBob, my old friend, I can tell you that that was by far IWU's worst performance of the year.  Oxy was very good that night, and the Titans were just awful.  Consider...

Titan Q-
I know the CCIW is a strong conference, and I've been very impressed with IWU when I've seen them play in person.  The irony here is that for years the rap on the SCIAC is that "we never beat anybody outside the conference."  This year both CLU and Oxy have quality non-conference wins, and now we are presented with a variety of arguments as to why those wins aren't meaningful.  True - Oxy lost to CMS.  But it seems to me that are other conferences in which a team can absorb a loss like that without a serious hit to their poll position.

As for the snow, well I did have some frost on my front lawn this morning 

[LogShow]

Fair enough.  Which is why I'm hopeful that some of our non-conference success this year will pay off (yes I know that IWU and Plattsburgh are not in our region) but at least they are wins against good D3 teams people know instead of SoCal NAIA teams people are less familiar with.

I might be mistaken, but I thought a rule was passed a couple years ago that allowed for the schools to designate 2 games as "in-region"  (that are really out of region) to get teams for ventrue out and travel more

[LogShow]

I can already tell this board is going to be very entertaining today!

[David Collinge]

[Mr. Ypsi]

By mentioning the 2-3,000 miles, I think Pat was referring to the travel itself (not to mention the distractions to college students suddenly out of the cold weather!)

as a largely freshman team, the Titans in December were definitely not the Titans of late January.

yes, the Titans are exponentially better a month later in their college careers and playing at the Shirk rather than in SoCal. 

Translation: The young pups of IWU, just past puberty and barely able to shave, boarded a rickety, old DC-3 and made the long journey from Illinois to California. And what a harrowing journey! With one of the two prop engines having failed, and the other badly leaking oil, and after suffering for hours of tedious flight, buffeted by high winds and air sick from turbulence, the Titan youngsters emerged on the tarmac, barely able to stand the icy chill of the 70 degree weather. Despite the horrible travel conditions they just endured, the Titans made their way to Oxy and made a game effort, losing by only 21, though looking back now it certainly was their worst game of the year (in a vacuum, of course, since Oxy could have had *nothing* to do with IWU's lousy play that night), and don't forget that their point guard was in foul trouble, and besides since then (a whole 30 days later) they've matured and grown into strong men not the mere boys Oxy played.

How's that for fiction?

OxyBob

Now, now, you've got to read my posts better before satirizing them!  I said "out of the cold", not 'out in the cold' - how can you expect a bunch of Illinois teenagers, suddenly cast into what passes for summer in December, to concentrate on basketball?!

More seriously, I don't know if 30 days has matured them from callow youth to grown men in general, but if freshmen are not a whole lot better by their 17th college game than their 8th, they are not the recruits we thought we were getting.

[UPSoundLogs]

"When I go backpacking I always carry a copy of the Top 25 poll with me because it makes an excellent makeshift compass. When you take it out of your pocket it always points East."
-oxybob


"Yeah, I actaully laughed out loud!"
-Logshow


Ditto!!!!   Hahahaha!

[Titan Q]

Bob, my points were pretty simple and harmless (I thought)...

1) There is evidence that suggests IWU can play with, and beat, good basketball teams - teams as good as Oxy.

2) When I said, "Had your Tigers won @ CMS, they'd be ranked, and ranked pretty high actually.  The reality is, when you're trying to gain respect, you have to beat teams you are better than, and Oxy is better than CMS", I was talking about the simple realities of the Top 25 poll.  Heading into that game, Occidental was ranked #21 (Week 6 poll).  After the loss, they went from 128 poll points to 32 points, dropping out (and the Tigers haven't reappeared yet).  Had they won the CMS game, the Tigers would sitting about #15 right now.

I agree very much with scandihoovian, who said, "But it seems to me that are other conferences in which a team can absorb a loss like that without a serious hit to their poll position."  That was what I was hinting at.  Occidental is not UW-Stevens Point or Wooster or Hope, where a tough road loss in the conference is "forgiven."  That is why I said, "When you are trying to gain respect...", because the Tigers aren't going to be given any free passes.  It doesn't mean it's right or that I agree with it, but it is a reality.  As I posted on CCIW Chat on January 13:

IWU fans on the L.A. trip might be interested to know that Claremont-Mudd-Scripps beat Occidental tonight 55-42 (@ CMS).

This seems pretty amazing.  I know it's tough to win on the road, but from the two games I saw out here, I thought Oxy was clearly a much better team than Claremont.  I'm not trying to compare scores of the two IWU games (the Titans shot horribly against Oxy which contributed to such a lopsided score), but I thought Oxy's inside-outside combination was tough to beat.  Q, I know we even said we thought Oxy could probably compete for the CCIW championship this year.  Any given night I guess.

Occidental is a lot better basketball team than Claremont-Mudd-Scripps - and I do think they would contend for the CCIW title this year - but that result didn't surprise me that much.  Much like a less talented Hanover team can beat anybody on any given night, I'd imagine CMS pulls off its share of "upsets" (especially at home) with their incredibly physical style and great defense. 

On the season, CMS opponents are averaging 59.8 ppg, are shooting .416 from the field, and have 114 assists to 180 turnovers.  Those numbers probably stack up favorably with the best defensive teams in the country.  It's just hard to score 60 points against that team.

Former #21 Occidental fell out of the Top 25 this week (128 poll points in Week 6...32 points this week) after losing a tough conference road game in a gym they haven't won at in 5 years.  I was disappointed to see that.  They're a better team than some of those in the poll.  I think the Occidentals of Division III are almost in the same boat as the DI "mid-majors" - they have a hard time gaining respect, and when they do, it doesn't take much to lose it.

As I have stated numerous times on Hoopsville this year that I think Occidental is a very good team.  And as I just posted on the Top 25 board on Jan. 28:

This is about as much parity as I can recall in Division III.  I have seen #1 Wash U, #10 Augustana, #21 Elmhurst, #24 Wheaton, and top "ORV" Occidental, and there just isn't a heck of a lot of separation there at all. 

If you are trying to pick a fight with someone who is disrespecting Occidental, or does not understand the position your alma mater is in in gaining respect, I think you've got the wrong guy.