MBB: Southern California Intercollegiate Athletic Conference

[Titan Q]

Fair enough.  Which is why I'm hopeful that some of our non-conference success this year will pay off (yes I know that IWU and Plattsburgh are not in our region) but at least they are wins against good D3 teams people know instead of SoCal NAIA teams people are less familiar with.

The IWU/Occidental game was "in-region" for both teams...Illinios and California are in the same administrative region. 

Three factors can make a game "in-region"...

1) Obviously being in the same region (West, Midwest, etc).
2) Being within 200 miles, campus to campus.
3) Being in the same administrative region.

Page 15:

2008 D3 Championship Handbook

[sciacguru]

Bob, my points were pretty simple and harmless (I thought)...
2) When I said, "Had your Tigers won @ CMS, they'd be ranked, and ranked pretty high actually.  The reality is, when you're trying to gain respect, you have to beat teams you are better than, and Oxy is better than CMS", I was talking about the simple realities of the Top 25 poll.  Heading into that game, Occidental was ranked #21 (Week 6 poll).  After the loss, they went from 128 poll points to 32 points, dropping out (and the Tigers haven't reappeared yet).  Had they won the CMS game, the Tigers would sitting about #15 right now.

I guess we should be discussing who is better in this scenario:
Claremont (SCIAC) vs North Park (CCIW)

[Gray Fox]

The Oxy loss to CMS is probably best explained by the 34 mile trip to play the game.

Shortened link to map

[DIIIghetto]

OB, thanks for the comic relief today.  Much appreciated.

[LogShow]

I think the Oxy team bus missed the Claremont exit and they instead ended up in Denver, which is a 2,000 round trip. Lucky they got back before game time.

OxyBob

He will be preforming here all week ladies and gentlemen...don't forget to tip your server

[scandihoovian]

The Oxy loss to CMS is probably best explained by the 34 mile trip to play the game.

Shortened link to map

There have been times when I was stuck on the freeway between Eagle Rock and Claremont and wished I was on a plane flying in from the Midwest. 

[OXY Oswald]

The Oxy loss to CMS is probably best explained by the 34 mile trip to play the game.

Shortened link to map

There have been times when I was stuck on the freeway between Eagle Rock and Clarement and wished I was on a plane flying in from the Midwest. 

Truer words have never been spoken.

[Gregory Sager]

Fair enough.  Which is why I'm hopeful that some of our non-conference success this year will pay off (yes I know that IWU and Plattsburgh are not in our region) but at least they are wins against good D3 teams people know instead of SoCal NAIA teams people are less familiar with.

I might be mistaken, but I thought a rule was passed a couple years ago that allowed for the schools to designate 2 games as "in-region"  (that are really out of region) to get teams for ventrue out and travel more

No such rule exists. There was an effort made at the D3 Convention two years ago to have all D3 games played when school was not in session for a week or more counted as regional games, but that did not pass.

Bob, my points were pretty simple and harmless (I thought)...
2) When I said, "Had your Tigers won @ CMS, they'd be ranked, and ranked pretty high actually.  The reality is, when you're trying to gain respect, you have to beat teams you are better than, and Oxy is better than CMS", I was talking about the simple realities of the Top 25 poll.  Heading into that game, Occidental was ranked #21 (Week 6 poll).  After the loss, they went from 128 poll points to 32 points, dropping out (and the Tigers haven't reappeared yet).  Had they won the CMS game, the Tigers would sitting about #15 right now.

I guess we should be discussing who is better in this scenario:
Claremont (SCIAC) vs North Park (CCIW)

I'm not following your line of reasoning here, sciacguru. Are you implying that the SCIAC and CCIW should be measured against each other by virtue of the comparative strengths of the two teams in the pack that pulled off upsets of the respective league leaders? If so, then it seems to me that you're comparing apples and rutabagas. Oxy only has that one loss to CMS on its SCIAC resume to date, whereas Carthage has two CCIW losses -- one to Wheaton and one to North Park. Furthermore, those respective losses to CMS and to NPU are different in kind, as Oxy's loss was at CMS while Carthage's loss to NPU was on the home floor of the Red Men.

[Pat Coleman]

I do understand why other voters, who haven't seen Oxy, are still hesitant though. 

Especially since at least one who has seen Oxy is hesitant.

[scandihoovian]

Funny that the SCIAC's voter doesn't vote for any SCIAC teams, but has four WIAC teams on their ballot, along with three UAA teams, three CCIW teams ...

I find it a rare unbiased admission and kind of refreshing considering the bluster from fans in many corners, not just the SCIAC, who assume their own teams are unfairly ranked.

I do understand why other voters, who haven't seen Oxy, are still hesitant though. 

Especially since at least one who has seen Oxy is hesitant.

Pat-
I am an admitted SCIAC homer with a marked tendency for blustering.

With those facts duly acknowledged, I am confused by the argument made in these posts.  We are supposed to assume that the SCIAC voter is extra credible because they leave an Oxy team they have seen off of their ballot, while they include a number of teams from other conferences who they very likely have not seen play? 

It seems to me that, by making assumptions about the supposed quality of these teams from other parts of the country without actually seeing them play, it's very likely this particular voter has fallen victim to the scourge of East Coast bias that we SCIAC folks love to complain about.

[sciacguru]

Lobby time.

Any reason why Oxy shouldn't be in the top 20?  Lots of teams with 3 and 4 losses in there.  Then you look at Plattsburg State's continued success - whom Oxy beat - and see that Wheaton is in there for their fine season (with a recent loss to a tough Ill Wesleyan, another team Oxy beat) and you start to wonder. 

Call me a conspiracy theorist but Oxy & Cal Lu's non-conference wins this year showed that the SCIAC isn't the basement.  We may not be the top floor like our west coast friends up from the NWC, but our kids are banging on that basement door and someone either opens it or we are going to bust it down. 

By the way, on the Duck comment, that student body certainly deserves criticism for going over the line, but I have to admit, when they killed Nate Robinson with the Gary Coleman chants, I was on the floor.  Unfortunately for them, Nate used it as extra motivation like Love and lead his team to a W.

Ghetto-

I have been wondering the same thing...especially after getting a chance to see the Tigers play in person for the first time this year.  Their balanced scoring and solid team defense make them a tough team to beat.  Their play in the second half against CLU was some of the best D3 basketball I've seen in a while.  I think CLU has a fair chance to win the rematch, I just know they'll have to play a solid game without any lapses to do so.

The Tigers lone conference loss was at CMS on a Saturday night, which we all know is a tough setting for the visiting team to pull out a win.  It seems like in other parts of the country, where voters know more about those kinds of factors, it's easier for a top team to absorb a loss and stay in the Top 25.  I'd hate to think that CLU's aberration down at Whittier is seriously diluting the perceived strength of the conference, it seems like it may have that effect, at least with some voters.

My thinking spawned from these earlier discussions.  Oxy loses their conference opener on the road to CMS (their only D3 loss), and falls out of the Top 25, as they should.  But having won 5 straight since, I thought they deserved to be back in.

As this became a comparitive score debate with wins over the CCIW, I thought I would bring North Park into the picture. And to keep this about the top 25, lets leave Carthage out of it since they are not in the top 25.  But the co-leader of the CCIW with Carthage is....Augustana.  Augustana (#5 at the time) lost their conference opener @ North Park.
http://d3hoops.com/notables.php?page=4

Augustana dropped from #5 to #9,  then to #12 after losing to Carthage, now back to #10 after winning 3 consecutive games over the bottom tier conference teams.  Both losses to North Park and Carthage were to non-Top 25 teams. 

So I believe scandi and ghetto have vaild concerns why Oxy is not getting stronger consideration for the Top 25.

How do you like them apples?

[Mr. Ypsi]

"them apples" taste awfully similar to "sour grapes".   (Before you smite either me or my MUCH younger fellow alum, Q, bear in mind that we both ARE voting for Oxy [him, officially; me in the Posters' Poll.)

With no disrespect, I hope you are not comparing the "bottom tier" CCIW wins of Augie to the bottom tier of the SCIAC (especially since one of those "bottom tier" wins was over IWU, who has been used as a plus for Oxy)!

Rightly or wrongly, a team (or conference) without a history of success will have a harder time gaining respect (and will lose it more quickly) than a team (or conference) that has proven itself with long-term performance.  And moreover, their schedule will more readily be dismissed until the teams (or conferences) on it have proven themselves.  It may be right, it may be wrong, but it is what it is.

BTW, I realize that Scandihoovian may consider everything east of Las Vegas to be East Co(a)st, but not many of us in the CCIW do!

[scandihoovian]

Fear not, Mr. Ypsi!

I am much more geographically aware than the average Californian.  I know full well that you hit the the East coast right after crossing the Rockies...

I am actually pretty familiar with the CCIW through many family connections to Augustana.  I still have lots of family in IL, and I know that when I am standing on a beach in Chicago I am looking at Lake Michigan and not the Atlantic Ocean.

[Mr. Ypsi]

Fear not, Mr. Ypsi!

I am much more geographically aware than the average Californian.  I know full well that you hit the the east coast (thanks for catching my typo) right after crossing the Rockies...

I am actually pretty familiar with the CCIW through many family connections to Augustana.  I still have lots of family in IL, and I know that when I am standing on a beach in Chicago I am looking at Lake Michigan, and not the Atlantic Ocean.

Oh, the quandary!  Now I don't know whether to hold you in higher respect, or in utter contempt!

Since IWU and Augie are not the most bitter of rivals, I guess I'll go with more respect for a fellow Illinoisian (I was born and raised in Peoria, but after graduating IWU went the other direction and have been a Michigander for closing in on 4 decades).

[LogShow]

The Posters' Poll? Isn't that the one where one of the voters doesn't even have Puget Sound -- one of the most exciting, dynamic, entertaining and talented teams around

Thats a heck of a compliment about Puget Sound Bob, thanks for appreciating the work and effort Puget Sound puts into its brand of basketball!