MBB: Southern California Intercollegiate Athletic Conference

[Gray Fox]

I am only moved once or twice a year to say anything here, but this is once again ridiculous.  Whether it is football or basketball, the short end continues to point Oxy's direction.

Yes, they could have made it easy by winning out - but would that really make it easy for the committee.  Seems top 7 football teams still have to travel and play road games at the committees whim.  Of course we all know 60 or 80 plane flights add up quickly in the football world.... but 15 or so for hoops is just not justified.

Just get Obama to pay for a  bunch of teams to fly to Oxy, he'd gladly support it - he did rake in 10 mil last month in donations hehe.

The NCAA is in the process of revising their official selection/bracketing procedures.  The only thing missing is deciding whether to use the phrase "except for Oxy" or "except for the SCIAC".

In trying to be fair and objective,  I think Oxy got screwed last year with the way the final pairings came out at MC.  This year, I think is fairer when you consider the monetary viewpoint.

All the D3 playoffs are supported by the crumbs the NCAA throws to us from the March Madness TV revenues.  It is not something we D3 fans are "owed".  So it is imperative that we support the D1 playoffs to the maximum extent.  And we should all be rooting for a team from a major media market with a rich winning tradition to win it all.   This will maximize the TV eyeballs and the resulting "crumbs" the NCAA can throw our way to make even round one games completely follow normal bracketing traditions. 

[bbaddict]

I understand that this is SCIAC board, but since the comments were made on this page I will answer on this page, but this will be my last comment about strictly NWC issues (even though the original comment was semi-related).  I didn't post it on this board so my "friends" could stick up for me.

And LogShow, before you start spouting stuff about playing time you should take a look at UPS' stats -- you can find them on the NWC site (individual stats by team).  Your coach has 5 guys he plays more than 18 min. per game & 8 that play less than 5!  Whitworth has 6 that play more than 18 mpg and only 4 that play less than 5!  And if you want to argue NWC stuff do it on our board not on the SCIAC board where your friends will stick up for you!

First off addict I don't know why your posts are filled with such anger, and you always feel like you have to jump into a discussion and take an opposing view point to mine.  Please tell me your not still bitter about a the fact the UPS ended Willamette's season.

My post mearly stated that WW plays very few guys major mins, I wasn't saying that was a good thing or bad.  But your counter argument is foolish.  Everyone that has seen WW play knows that Symes, Williamson, and Naknamra will go 40 mins if they can (meaning not in foul trouble), Riley will go about 28-30, and Jurich will go about 20.    Now you might claim that the stats say different...and they do, for the entire season, but those are greatly inflated due to games against UC Santa Cruz when bench players got to start and play the majority of the game...except Symes and Willamson both went over 35mins.  To get a true grasp on mins I think you have to look at the conference stats.  In conference WW had 6 guys in double digit mins, and only 1 other guy above 6mins a game.  I have ommitted Montgomery from that list because you must know that if a player has a DNP his mins per game are not affected.  So Montgomery played major mins for 4 games and the DNPed all but 5 other ones where he played approx 1 min/game.  Yet his mins/game is still above 10.  

Sorry for the long post...wish I could add humor in it better like OxyBob does!

Wow Logs, I didn't know you were so sensitive -- I'll try to back off.  I'm guessing that the only games you've seen Whitworth play are against UPS and of course they play their starters, so they can win.  Everyone does against UPS and actually, UPS mostly plays their starters at least in the Linfield, LC, WU & Whitworth games.  So, what's your point?  Of course Hayford recruited experienced players this past season -- he had to replace 4 seniors that graduated.  Apparently his fellow coaches thought it was smart, they voted him COTY.

As for "jumping on you" because I'm bitter, need I remind you about your nasty comment about the 20 drunken WU fans . . .?   It took all the self control I had not to point out that your UPS team beat the Bearcats on a not so stellar night by only 5 points.   True, they had the win and the prize was an @&* whipping in Spokane with the mirror image score of 96-69!  I'm not picking on you, I've just consistenly been pretty much "anyone but UPS" for a long time.  You can look back at former posts.  However, when UPS represents the NWC in tourney play, I cheer for them!

You and I fundamentally disagree on things.  You were over on the NWC site pretending to be a NWC fan and all the while you were on the SCIAC site dissing Whitworth.   That's why I called you a closet SCIAC fan -- maybe that was too harsh!  Sorry if I hurt your feelings.

I really do think if you want to discuss NWC topics, we should do it on the correct board.

[bbaddict]

Fairly or unfairly -- pretty much feels the same.

[LogShow]

The real order if you are interested is UPS, NWC, SCIAC.  I fully support WW in their run...I just really don't like the way the NCAA handles things.  I do feel bad for Oxy because this has happened to them two years in a row.

...WW does deserve some reward for their strong finish. It really just comes back to the frustration at the NCAA, who has a real conflict of interest of putting together the best possible bracket, when they try to save money with geographic proximity.

I don't think I ever "dissed" Whitworth.  And like I said, I don't think Oxy deserved a bye either.  If anything I was trying to "diss" the NCAA's ineptness

[bbaddict]

OK Logs -- truce?

[LogShow]

You got it!

[Gregory Sager]

I love our thread.  Sagers, if you thought I was saying that student-athletes from junior colleges could not do well at good four year institutions then you misinterpreted my musings.  I'm too familiar with juco's and your point about the cost of higher education to ever make such a flawed statement.   I am not going out on a limb when I say, however, that by and large, a kid who decides not to go to a good 4 year school at the chance that he will latch on with a big school athletic program is generally not a great admit for the rigors of most DIII academic instutions.  The better junior college admit is the one you described, who, but for the costs or other circumstances, almost had no other choice except go the juco route.  Clearly those situations are not mutually exclusive and there will on occassion be the kid with good grades who just thinks he should be in the Show, but also knows that the costs of four years at a small school is not something that works for him/her coming out of h.s.

Those 6 juco admits at Whitworth could all be exemplary students for all I know.  If they are, more power to them and the coaching staff for flipping the traditional model on its head.    I was serious that I want the Whitworth AD in the SCIAC.  With more juco's and great juco basketball than anywhere in the country, if admissions offices in the SCIAC warm up to juco transfers, we wouldn't be relegated to the DIII ghetto for long. 

NWhoops, 6 juco transfers is high for any basketball program, D1, 2 or 3.   Look at the bright side, Whitworth gets a chance to issue some payback for two painful losses it took a couple of years ago in a SoCal swing.  I really liked your squad when they came down.   Good coach and tough players.

Since you claim to be open-minded about the circumstances that lead to student-athletes attending jucos, and you admit to agnosticism on the subject of Whitworth's admissions policies, why cast aspersions about Whitworth's ex-juco players in the first place? Why offer up those sweeping generalities that led to your having to backpedal?

[D O.C.]

Having no frog in the jumping contest lends to relished outside agitation

 

Posting Up / West Region / Re: Northwest Conference       on: February 25, 2008, 11:24:09 pm
What's the Diablo Valley Community College, CA,  tie with Whitworth?

[DIIIghetto]

Sagerhen, I offered it up because it was a striking number and wanted some context.  I only retreated from my jab because my heart wasn't in it.  For me it would kind of be like my trying to argue in support of Hillary.  It may be fun for fleeting moment but then reality would set in.  I see NorthPark has 5 so I understand why you would rush into the debate.   It has been a long time since I was in the juco game but there never were very many doors that were opened at the DIII level when I was.  It makes sense that given the cost of higher education that would eventually change.  I haven't seen it change at the D1 level yet  and so was really surprised to see it happen at D3 first.  But it seems that NP and Whitworth are still the exceptions to the unwritten rules applied to juco student-athletes.   I am sure that every SCIAC coach would love to be able to add So Cal juco's to their list of recruiting spots.  But unless some views change in admission departments, that ain't happening.  Like I said, if Redlands showed up with 6 juco recruits next year, lots of folks in the conference would start talking about DIV. 
   

[Gray Fox]

Things seemed to have worked out well for this guy.

Cun started his college career playing two seasons at Los Angeles Valley College before transferring to Oxy for his junior season. During his two seasons at Oxy, Team Captain Cun established himself as one of the premier point guards in the nation, earning numerous awards and setting various records. He made First Team All-SCIAC honors in 2003, after being a Second Team pick in 2002. He was also, along Rebassoo, Co-MVP for the Tigers in 2003. Cun worked his way into the Oxy record books after dishing out 15 assists in a single game against the University of Redlands during his senior season. He also led the team in assists and steals during both of his years at Oxy.

[DIIIghetto]

Cun was an all-time great.  The unwritten rule is that 1, 2 or every full moon a 3rd juco admit is kosher.   

[nwhoops1903]

Cun was an all-time great.  The unwritten rule is that 1, 2 or every full moon a 3rd juco admit is kosher.   

Ask Clemens what he thinks of unwritten rules.

[David Collinge]

Cun was an all-time great.  The unwritten rule is that 1, 2 or every full moon a 3rd juco admit is kosher.   

Ask Clemens what he thinks of unwritten rules.

"It is good to obey all the rules when you're young, so you'll have the strength to break them when you're old."

[Gray Fox]

Cun was an all-time great.  The unwritten rule is that 1, 2 or every full moon a 3rd juco admit is kosher.   

Ask Clemens what he thinks of unwritten rules.

Congress gets to lie to us.  That is an unwritten rule.

Lying to them is not.

[scandihoovian]

Should all SCIAC and NWC schools admit and welcome JC students who meet their admission standards?  Absolutely.

Most (if not all) of the institutions in the two conferences relish in their role as small liberal arts colleges and regional universities.  They focus on providing a quality, traditional, four year college experience for their students.  I think it's fair to say that this fact makes most admissions offices careful about adding too many JC transfers to the traditional age undergraduate population (many SCIAC schools have adult degree programs).  The bottom line is that these places need to emphasize and nourish their four year program, otherwise what would be the point of having freshmen and sophomore classes?

Do these kids at Whitworth deserve the chance to play D3 basketball?  Absolutely - as many have pointed out they obviously met the requirements for admission.  Do I get the fact that maybe the head coach needed a quick rebuild and went after qualified JC kids who could make a legitimate impact? Yes, again.

I would be very concerned, however, if I was the president of a SCIAC or NWC school and the ratio of JC transfers on one of my athletic teams was consistently 2-3 times higher than that of JC transfers in my traditional age undergraduate population.  It becomes a matter of concern over institutional balance.

GF - Love the line about congress.