MBB: Southern California Intercollegiate Athletic Conference

[elfinley]

"I love our thread.  Sagers, if you thought I was saying that student-athletes from junior colleges could not do well at good four year institutions then you misinterpreted my musings.  I'm too familiar with juco's and your point about the cost of higher education to ever make such a flawed statement.   I am not going out on a limb when I say, however, that by and large, a kid who decides not to go to a good 4 year school at the chance that he will latch on with a big school athletic program is generally not a great admit for the rigors of most DIII academic instutions.  The better junior college admit is the one you described, who, but for the costs or other circumstances, almost had no other choice except go the juco route.  Clearly those situations are not mutually exclusive and there will on occassion be the kid with good grades who just thinks he should be in the Show, but also knows that the costs of four years at a small school is not something that works for him/her coming out of h.s.

Those 6 juco admits at Whitworth could all be exemplary students for all I know.  If they are, more power to them and the coaching staff for flipping the traditional model on its head.    I was serious that I want the Whitworth AD in the SCIAC.  With more juco's and great juco basketball than anywhere in the country, if admissions offices in the SCIAC warm up to juco transfers, we wouldn't be relegated to the DIII ghetto for long.  

NWhoops, 6 juco transfers is high for any basketball program, D1, 2 or 3.   Look at the bright side, Whitworth gets a chance to issue some payback for two painful losses it took a couple of years ago in a SoCal swing.  I really liked your squad when they came down.   Good coach and tough players."


This issue with juco's is kinda silly dont you think? All of the local D3's and those in the NWC recruit from JC's. Just like high school recruits, they have to be good students to get in these schools and more importantly, survive to stay eligible and eventually graduate.


To even create such a stir is just plain ridiculous.
To question

[bbaddict]

I think DIIIghetto is just a pot stirrer and there's not all that much to talk about until after Thursday!

[Ralph Turner]

...
In trying to be fair and objective,  I think Oxy got screwed last year with the way the final pairings came out at MC.  This year, I think is fairer when you consider the monetary viewpoint.
... 

I agree about last year.  I think that the true seeding of the bracket was
1) Miss College
2) Oxy
3) Maryville TN
4) UMHB

I think that Randy Lambert did not want to play Miss College in the first game, so he made sure that he got UMHB as a first round opponent.

Maryville's record of 9 straight years of at least one win in the NCAA tournament is on the line at Millsaps this year.

[nwhoops1903]

Cun was an all-time great.  The unwritten rule is that 1, 2 or every full moon a 3rd juco admit is kosher.   

Ask Clemens what he thinks of unwritten rules.

Congress gets to lie to us.  That is an unwritten rule.

Lying to them is not.

True, however, I was referring to MLB's rulebook.  Even if, haha IF!!, Clemens used steroids or HGH it wasn't against the rules of MLB.  The press decided to go after Bonds because they didn't like him and 100+ other athletes are now swept up in it.  The unwritten rule in MLB was don't use steroids, that's cheating.  Now, I understand the law breaking aspect of steroids with the Feds but please, the press could incriminate nearly every American on something if wanted to.

[nwhoops1903]

...
In trying to be fair and objective,  I think Oxy got screwed last year with the way the final pairings came out at MC.  This year, I think is fairer when you consider the monetary viewpoint.
... 

I agree about last year.  I think that the true seeding of the bracket was
1) Miss College
2) Oxy
3) Maryville TN
4) UMHB
I think that Randy Lambert did not want to play Miss College in the first game, so he made sure that he got UMHB as a first round opponent.
Maryville's record of 9 straight years of at least one win in the NCAA tournament is on the line at Millsaps this year.

So you are saying that someone had access and was able to influence an entire committee and selection process cause he was afraid to lose a 1st round game.   New NCAA bylaw, cell phones shall be banned from selection committee members for 24 hours prior and after selection meeting.   Call it the OXY rule.

[LogShow]

I think the Oxy amendment has a beter ring to it

[bbaddict]

So, what is the prediction for the game between Oxy and PP?  Is PP an underdog with everyone expecting Oxy to win?  Or are they well matched?

[April]

So do we have a tally of who is going to the game tomorrow? Count me in....

[Gregory Sager]

Sagerhen, I offered it up because it was a striking number and wanted some context.  I only retreated from my jab because my heart wasn't in it.  For me it would kind of be like my trying to argue in support of Hillary.  It may be fun for fleeting moment but then reality would set in.  I see NorthPark has 5 so I understand why you would rush into the debate.

NPU had two juco transfers on this year's team, not five: Jon Chimino and Jorge Gonzalez. And I didn't "rush into the debate" to defend the NPU basketball team by proxy. I called you on your stereotyping because it simply isn't true that juco student-athletes deserve to be tarred with the bad-student brush. My experience with NPU is more a source of insight into the situation than a reason to be defensive.

But it seems that NP and Whitworth are still the exceptions to the unwritten rules applied to juco student-athletes.

I would hope that admissions officers would see it as their professional responsibility to take each applicant seriously upon his or her own merits rather than to wallow in stereotypes by blackballing juco-student transfer applicants out of hand.

Cun was an all-time great.  The unwritten rule is that 1, 2 or every full moon a 3rd juco admit is kosher.  

Ask Clemens what he thinks of unwritten rules.

"It is good to obey all the rules when you're young, so you'll have the strength to break them when you're old."

My nerdiness is showing, David, because I first thought of Mark (Samuel Clemens) Twain and that quote of his before I thought of Roger Clemens, too.

Should all SCIAC and NWC schools admit and welcome JC students who meet their admission standards?  Absolutely.

Most (if not all) of the institutions in the two conferences relish in their role as small liberal arts colleges and regional universities.  They focus on providing a quality, traditional, four year college experience for their students.  I think it's fair to say that this fact makes most admissions offices careful about adding too many JC transfers to the traditional age undergraduate population (many SCIAC schools have adult degree programs).  The bottom line is that these places need to emphasize and nourish their four year program, otherwise what would be the point of having freshmen and sophomore classes?

Do these kids at Whitworth deserve the chance to play D3 basketball?  Absolutely - as many have pointed out they obviously met the requirements for admission.  Do I get the fact that maybe the head coach needed a quick rebuild and went after qualified JC kids who could make a legitimate impact? Yes, again.

I would be very concerned, however, if I was the president of a SCIAC or NWC school and the ratio of JC transfers on one of my athletic teams was consistently 2-3 times higher than that of JC transfers in my traditional age undergraduate population.  It becomes a matter of concern over institutional balance.

Well said, 'hoovian, and that's a good point about schools needing to protect their underclassmen enrollment.

[sac]

Ooooooo a transfer discussion.

[sciac_is_fun]

I'm disappointed that a deserving Cal Lutheran team was excluded from the NCAA tournament, but I'm also surprised that the only outcry from the apparently resigned-to-their-fate CLU fans was about Deshion Inniss not making first team all-SCIAC.

Here's one Cal Lutheran fan that's pissed off they didn't get into the tournament - especially when I really feel like they had the tools this year to make a run.  I think most of us just don't know what to say and who to say it to.  Apparently the regional rankings don't mean jack...who makes up the tournament committee anyway? 

[Gregory Sager]

Here's one Cal Lutheran fan that's pissed off they didn't get into the tournament - especially when I really feel like they had the tools this year to make a run.  I think most of us just don't know what to say and who to say it to.  Apparently the regional rankings don't mean jack...who makes up the tournament committee anyway? 

Ask, and you shall receive. Here's the link to the D3 men's basketball championship handbook; the committee members (and their e-mail addresses) are listed on pages 8 and 9:

http://www.ncaa.org/library/handbooks/basketball/2008/2008_d3_m_basketball_handbook.pdf

[bbaddict]

Well no wonder the left coast teams usually get screwed -- our "West" representative is from Iowa!!  The only other one for the West is in Texas!   Not much love for the Northwest schools or the Cali schools in that bunch.  They probably aren't even familiar with the teams!!  I'm upset for Cal Lu and I'm not even from your conference.  When I saw some of the win/loss records of some of the Pool C bids -- oh, it just makes me mad!

[Gregory Sager]

Well no wonder the left coast teams usually get screwed -- our "West" representative is from Iowa!!  The only other one for the West is in Texas!   Not much love for the Northwest schools or the Cali schools in that bunch.  They probably aren't even familiar with the teams!!  I'm upset for Cal Lu and I'm not even from your conference.  When I saw some of the win/loss records of some of the Pool C bids -- oh, it just makes me mad!

There are over twice as many schools in the midwestern portion of the West Region (41) as there are on the West Coast (18). And Texas is not in the West Region; the D3 member schools that are located in the Lone Star State are all within the South Region.

[bbaddict]

Yes, but Texas schools always get grouped with the "West" for playoffs.   So much for "West Coast bias."