D3 vs. D1/D2/NAIA/NCCAA

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

True.. but I don't think that is a change in terms of rules as much as just a change in mentality. They also allowed more games to be played in the regular season to probably offset some of that (not to mention things like "last ten games" et al).

[sac]

semantics

[AO]

question for hopefan, D1 related.  Are you counting those 1/2 real game, 1/2 exhibition games against the D1's such as Alma at Central Michigan?



I think something changed in the D1 formula where games out of division don't hurt them as much as they used to.  Consequently they are more willing to play D2 and D3 opponents.

What has changed is actually on the Division III side... it used to be that you had to play a non-counting game against a D1 (or any team) prior to the start of the season (Nov. 15 normally; Nov. 13 this year). However, there was confusion in how it was written and some schools were playing games after Nov. 15.

Long story short, they cleared it up and said ANY game against D1 or other division team can count as an exhibition/scrimmage/etc. game any time of the season (pre-season through end of season) as long as you don't go over your allotment of those games allowed. You can also count the game if you want, but that falls inside the 25-game limit.

Several schools this year have taken advantage of that "any time" rule like Roanoke who won against D1 NCA&T earlier this year. It counted as a real game for the D1 team, but it was an exhibition for Roanoke - anther wrinkle in all of this: can count for D1 but can be an exhibition for D3.

Side note for comparison. When you take into account all of the exceptions and such to the schedules, basketball teams can end up playing 40 games total in a year if they take advantage of everything. They are the extreme height in NCAA Division III. The extreme low is field hockey where they could only play a max of four more than their schedule, meaning 24 total. THAT has become a major talking point when it comes to schedules and such - exceptions and allotments outside of the regular season.

Why not just go to max 25 games against D3 opponents, 2 games outside of the division, and no exhibitions?   Seems silly to not count Roanoke's win when NC A&T was not treating it as an exhibition.

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

Because as allotments and exemptions have been added, there hasn't been a rule to tie them all together. That may be coming in Division III, but not sure how it will entail (at the convention there was overwhelming non-support for making exemptions universal across all sports). It gives coaches options and flexibility mainly. Now a coach can decide if he wants a game he is going to get killed in count or not, especially if he is getting paid. It also allows him to decide how he wants his schedule to play out for the NCAA Tournament. But the D3 exhibition against D1 real game has been around for a long time.

[smedindy]

                                 W         L      
NCAA-D1                  1          55      
NCAA-D2                   5          32      

Does anyone else find it strange that we've played 56 games against D-I competition and 37 games against D-II competition?

It would seem more likely (to me) that we'd play D-II much more frequently than D-I.

I think that a D-1 match is more likely to be a "money game".

So, that explains why it might be more attractive to a D-III team. But it would also be more attractive to a D-II team as well. And, seemingly, the competition would be "better" (on average, from the D-I perspective) when playing a D-II team rather than a D-III team.

Maybe the D-I's are just looking for W's... but do those W's come at a cost? Perhaps they don't properly prepare for the remainder of a D-I schedule?

Lot of the lower level D1 teams in the South play the local D3 schools as money games, before they become road warriors themselves for money games.

And for some reason the Ivy likes to play an NCAC school or two every year.

[smedindy]

Because as allotments and exemptions have been added, there hasn't been a rule to tie them all together. That may be coming in Division III, but not sure how it will entail (at the convention there was overwhelming non-support for making exemptions universal across all sports). It gives coaches options and flexibility mainly. Now a coach can decide if he wants a game he is going to get killed in count or not, especially if he is getting paid. It also allows him to decide how he wants his schedule to play out for the NCAA Tournament. But the D3 exhibition against D1 real game has been around for a long time.

It's not just D3 vs. D1. Games against NAIA schools can be exhibitions for them - same with games against Canadian non-NCAA schools.

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

Because as allotments and exemptions have been added, there hasn't been a rule to tie them all together. That may be coming in Division III, but not sure how it will entail (at the convention there was overwhelming non-support for making exemptions universal across all sports). It gives coaches options and flexibility mainly. Now a coach can decide if he wants a game he is going to get killed in count or not, especially if he is getting paid. It also allows him to decide how he wants his schedule to play out for the NCAA Tournament. But the D3 exhibition against D1 real game has been around for a long time.

It's not just D3 vs. D1. Games against NAIA schools can be exhibitions for them - same with games against Canadian non-NCAA schools.

Canadian games in Division III I think are handled completely differently. I believe they are under the international allowance which is only once every three year. That is a different topic altogether.

And yes, there are other example, but I was trying to keep it simple.

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

Because as allotments and exemptions have been added, there hasn't been a rule to tie them all together. That may be coming in Division III, but not sure how it will entail (at the convention there was overwhelming non-support for making exemptions universal across all sports). It gives coaches options and flexibility mainly. Now a coach can decide if he wants a game he is going to get killed in count or not, especially if he is getting paid. It also allows him to decide how he wants his schedule to play out for the NCAA Tournament. But the D3 exhibition against D1 real game has been around for a long time.

It's not just D3 vs. D1. Games against NAIA schools can be exhibitions for them - same with games against Canadian non-NCAA schools.

Canadian games in Division III I think are handled completely differently. I believe they are under the international allowance which is only once every three year. That is a different topic altogether.

And yes, there are other example, but I was trying to keep it simple.

It's not Canadian schools in general, only the pre-season international trips.  Teams go to Canada when they can't afford to go anywhere else.  I'm pretty sure in-season games against Canadian teams are handled like any other non NCAA contest.

[hopefan]

Because as allotments and exemptions have been added, there hasn't been a rule to tie them all together. That may be coming in Division III, but not sure how it will entail (at the convention there was overwhelming non-support for making exemptions universal across all sports). It gives coaches options and flexibility mainly. Now a coach can decide if he wants a game he is going to get killed in count or not, especially if he is getting paid. It also allows him to decide how he wants his schedule to play out for the NCAA Tournament. But the D3 exhibition against D1 real game has been around for a long time.

It's not just D3 vs. D1. Games against NAIA schools can be exhibitions for them - same with games against Canadian non-NCAA schools.

Canadian games in Division III I think are handled completely differently. I believe they are under the international allowance which is only once every three year. That is a different topic altogether.

And yes, there are other example, but I was trying to keep it simple.

It's not Canadian schools in general, only the pre-season international trips.  Teams go to Canada when they can't afford to go anywhere else.  I'm pretty sure in-season games against Canadian teams are handled like any other non NCAA contest.

This is an off the cuff response without doing research, but I don't think a game against Canadian schools is ever counted as one of 25 allowable, with stats being real, result a part of win-loss etc... if that's correct, games vs Canadian schools would always be exhibitions...  If someone can pull something out of NCAA manuals to prove me right or wrong.. great!!!
It does remind me of an amusing story of 'old-time basketball' ..my Junior year at RPI, 1969-70, we took a 4 game swing to Canada.. we were a fair college division team at the time (D3 did not yet exist) and one of the teams we played was Carlton (of Canada, not Minnesota) who at the time, was the No 1 team in Canada... we beat them, and quickly laid claim to having RPI rated as the number one team in Canada... needless to say, we got a kick out of faux rating!!!!  We agreed to forfeit the claim when we crossed the border back into the US... when another highlight occurred.. the customs guy at the crossing quizzed our driver, who was our SID, "Are you all Americans?".. to which he accurately replied.. "No, we're not quite that good..."  BA DA BOOM...

[John Gleich]

Because as allotments and exemptions have been added, there hasn't been a rule to tie them all together. That may be coming in Division III, but not sure how it will entail (at the convention there was overwhelming non-support for making exemptions universal across all sports). It gives coaches options and flexibility mainly. Now a coach can decide if he wants a game he is going to get killed in count or not, especially if he is getting paid. It also allows him to decide how he wants his schedule to play out for the NCAA Tournament. But the D3 exhibition against D1 real game has been around for a long time.

It's not just D3 vs. D1. Games against NAIA schools can be exhibitions for them - same with games against Canadian non-NCAA schools.

Canadian games in Division III I think are handled completely differently. I believe they are under the international allowance which is only once every three year. That is a different topic altogether.

And yes, there are other example, but I was trying to keep it simple.

It's not Canadian schools in general, only the pre-season international trips.  Teams go to Canada when they can't afford to go anywhere else.  I'm pretty sure in-season games against Canadian teams are handled like any other non NCAA contest.

This is an off the cuff response without doing research, but I don't think a game against Canadian schools is ever counted as one of 25 allowable, with stats being real, result a part of win-loss etc... if that's correct, games vs Canadian schools would always be exhibitions...  If someone can pull something out of NCAA manuals to prove me right or wrong.. great!!!
It does remind me of an amusing story of 'old-time basketball' ..my Junior year at RPI, 1969-70, we took a 4 game swing to Canada.. we were a fair college division team at the time (D3 did not yet exist) and one of the teams we played was Carlton (of Canada, not Minnesota) who at the time, was the No 1 team in Canada... we beat them, and quickly laid claim to having RPI rated as the number one team in Canada... needless to say, we got a kick out of faux rating!!!!  We agreed to forfeit the claim when we crossed the border back into the US... when another highlight occurred.. the customs guy at the crossing quizzed our driver, who was our SID, "Are you all Americans?".. to which he accurately replied.. "No, we're not quite that good..."  BA DA BOOM...

The Canadian discussion might be better tackled by the hockey people. I'm sure that it happens much more frequently on the ice than the hardwood.

There may be differences in how they're treated... but not necessarily.

[hopefan]

Games of 1/27

Alfred State (IND-D3 Provisional) 81, Franciscan (Ohio) 71
Cal Maritime (NAIA-D2) 75, UC Santa Cruz 64
Sarah Lawrence  79,  Cooper Union  (Other)  35

[Gregory Sager]

Because as allotments and exemptions have been added, there hasn't been a rule to tie them all together. That may be coming in Division III, but not sure how it will entail (at the convention there was overwhelming non-support for making exemptions universal across all sports). It gives coaches options and flexibility mainly. Now a coach can decide if he wants a game he is going to get killed in count or not, especially if he is getting paid. It also allows him to decide how he wants his schedule to play out for the NCAA Tournament. But the D3 exhibition against D1 real game has been around for a long time.

It's not just D3 vs. D1. Games against NAIA schools can be exhibitions for them - same with games against Canadian non-NCAA schools.

Canadian games in Division III I think are handled completely differently. I believe they are under the international allowance which is only once every three year. That is a different topic altogether.

And yes, there are other example, but I was trying to keep it simple.

It's not Canadian schools in general, only the pre-season international trips.  Teams go to Canada when they can't afford to go anywhere else.  I'm pretty sure in-season games against Canadian teams are handled like any other non NCAA contest.

This is an off the cuff response without doing research, but I don't think a game against Canadian schools is ever counted as one of 25 allowable

The current exchange rate is that one game against an American team counts as 1.4 games against a Canadian team.

[smedindy]

Well, all I know is that CWU plays Quest (nickname: The Kermodes) every year (and other GNAC (D2 variety) schools do too) and it counts for us - but not for them. We play them in December, which is their off time for the PacWest (Canada version) schedule.


One of Quest's best players is: Noah DeRappard-Yuswack

[hopefan]

No games on 1/28

[hopefan]

Games of 1/29

Maranatha Baptist  70,  Emmaus  (other)  59