D3 vs. D1/D2/NAIA/NCCAA

[hopefan]

For those of you following the ongoing struggle for the NCAA-D3 vs NAIA-D2 championship, I have a very bad premonition....

Currently, NAIA-D2 is up 2 games on NCAA-D3

A look at the future schedules show a little more than 90 games between the two during the rest of the season, dependent on tourney matchups...

The bad news  -  brace yourselves

UMPI plays 14 of them
Santa Cruz plays 5
Nebraska Wesleyan, in a very tough NAIA Conf, plays 14...


the final two matchups  -  will they be a determining factor?
UMPI at SUNY Canton   2/18
Nebr. Wez hosts Morningside 2/20


D3 will have to VERY well in the remaining matchups to finish at .500......

[KnightSlappy]

12/18/2009

Calvin 86, Trinity Christian, Ill. 59 (NAIA II)

[Ralph Turner]

The NAIA website shows that UMPI is participting for the NAIA championship, unlike Nebraska Wesleyan.

http://graphics.fansonly.com/schools/naia/member-services/championships/Qualifcation_Plans/qual_plans_pdf/qual_MBB_DII.pdf

Those UMPI losses are reckoned against UMPI for NAIA sake and UMPI is not likely to make the NAIA playoffs if they keep losing those games.

Since UMPI is competing for the championship in the Sunrise Conference, I propose that UMPI be considered for NAIA this season in the D3 versus the world tabulations.

[hopefan]

 I think this calls for a decision by Pat or Several of the HoFrs.  If I take UMPI, off of this list, I have to remove them from the Undefeated and Winless room also....  a place where they hold an almost reverential position.  Also I would wonder what Rhodes Scholar thinks.....
Hofr's, Pat, Rhodes, please comment.

Though it may be days before Pat is heard from again  -  the D3 Football game has been postponed due to snow.......Tough roads in those mountains....

[Mr. Ypsi]

I think this calls for a decision by Pat or Several of the HoFrs.  If I take UMPI, off of this list, I have to remove them from the Undefeated and Winless room also....  a place where they hold an almost reverential position.  Also I would wonder what Rhodes Scholar thinks.....
Hofr's, Pat, Rhodes, please comment.

Though it may be days before Pat is heard from again  -  the D3 Football game has been postponed due to snow.......Tough roads in those mountains....

Oh, man - the quandary!

I really want D3 to finish ahead of NAIA D2.  On the other hand, UMPI is my pick in the winless 'survivor pool'!  While I wasn't asked to vote or comment anyway, put me down as 'firmly undecided'!

[Gregory Sager]

Since you've asked, Hopefan, I'm pretty much a "by the book" guy. And, unfortunately, in this case there's two books, and they contradict each other.

There are, to the best of my knowledge, three schools that hold dual membership in NCAA D3 and NAIA D2 that have men's basketball teams: Nebraska Wesleyan, Maine-Presque Isle, and Menlo. All three are members of conferences that have 100% NAIA affliations among their respective memberships, and each of those three conferences draws an automatic bid to the NAIA-2 tourney. In spite of that, we're all aware of the fact that NebWes declares for the D3 tourney every year, and has done so going back to the birth of D3 back in the mid-seventies. And, as usual, the NAIA-2 membership page thus shows NebWes as a non-participating member, while the D3 men's basketball championship handbook lists NebWes as a participating member. So far, so good.

Menlo, too, has been a predictable declaree in basketball for many, many years, except that the Oaks have gone the other way and declared for the NAIA in basketball. The NAIA-2 membership page to which Ralph linked indicates that this is once again the case. However, this year the D3 handbook lists Menlo as a participating member. And there's problem #1, as you can't declare for both. You have to choose one or the other every year; both national organizations insist upon that.

Menlo uses its D3 affiliation for football purposes at the moment. The California Pacific Conference -- the NAIA league to which Menlo belongs -- does not sponsor football, so the Oaks play in D3's Northwest Conference and declare for the D3 tourney in football every year. My guess is that this is the source of the mixup, and that the D3 men's basketball championship handbook is thus in error, rather than the NAIA-2 membership page.

UMPI is another matter. The Owls participate in the NAIA-affiliated Sunrise Conference in every sport except for men's and women's Nordic skiing, in which they participate in an NCAA-affiliated league that spans two different NCAA divisions. It's not likely that the people in Indianapolis who put together the 2009-10 D3 men's basketball championship handbook made the same sort of error with UMPI that they likely made with Menlo -- transposing the Nordic skiing membership roll onto the men's basketball membership roll in the same way that they transposed the football membership roll into men's basketball. For one thing, Nordic skiing is a very obscure and sparsely-sponsored sport on the collegiate level, and it's not likely that it would be used as a source of transferable information to another sport. For another, the EISA (the Nordic skiing league to which UMPI belongs) is a mixed-level NCAA league that includes D1 schools such as Dartmouth, New Hampshire, Vermont, and Harvard as well as UMPI and several NESCAC schools. Nobody compiling a list of D3 schools for another sport would thus look to the EISA as a source.

To make a long story short, I can't figure out where the mistake would've come from. I have no idea why the NCAA folks would think that UMPI was a participating member in men's basketball unless there was direct documentary evidence from UMPI that the Owls were declaring for D3 this year. But I have no evidence to the contrary that would indicate that the NAIA folks would be making a similar kind of mistake. And the Owls website doesn't offer a clue as to which way the door swung for UMPI this year in terms of postseason declaration.

Like Ralph, I surmise that UMPI is an NAIA-2 declaree this year, based mostly upon the fact that the Owls are a Sunrise Conference participant. But that's not conclusive. If I were you, Hopefan, I'd start setting aside this season's UMPI games both past and future while awaiting confirmation as to UMPI's final disposition.

[magicman]

I think in view of the timing of this information regarding the affliation of UMPI, we should continue to allow Mr. Ypsi to keep them as his pick in the winless pool, even if we discover they are not D3. Otherwise we'll never hear the end of it. (Dare I mention GS's Tyler Sanborn pick as reference? )

[David Collinge]

[W]e should continue to allow Mr. Ypsi to [ ______________ ]. Otherwise we'll never hear the end of it.

Fixed.

[Mr. Ypsi]

[W]e should continue to allow Mr. Ypsi to [ ______________ ]. Otherwise we'll never hear the end of it.

Fixed.

Now, now, David.

On the other hand, if it allows me to get away with stuff, why quit?

[Gregory Sager]

[W]e should continue to allow Mr. Ypsi to [ ______________ ]. Otherwise we'll never hear the end of it.

Fixed.

Best laugh I've had all day. Thanks, DC!

[magicman]

Though it may be days before Pat is heard from again  -  the D3 Football game has been postponed due to snow.......Tough roads in those mountains....

Apparently it was only postponed a few hours, as Whitewater is winning 28-21 as of this moment, according to ESPN.

[hopefan]

You are right Magic  -  it was supposed to be on this morning at 10 central, but when I went to ESPN 2, it was Sports center... they eventually announced it had been postponed to mid afternoon.....

[Ralph Turner]

Menlo declares for D3 baseball in most seasons as well.

[hopefan]

Scores of Dec 19, 2009

Alma  88,  Marygrove  (NAIA-D2)  74
Army  (NCAA-D1)  62,  Mount St. Vincent  56     Closest score to D1 this season
Augsburg  68,  Sacred Heart (PR)  (Other)  65
Calvin  86,  Trinity Christian  (NAIA-D2)  59
Carthage  90,  Calumet St. Joseph  (NAIA-D2)  88
Concordia (California)  (NAIA-D1)  76,  Claremont-Mudd-Scripps  55
Northwestern (Iowa)  (NAIA-D2)  85,  Buena Vista  73
SMU  (NCAA-D1)  77,  Occidental  49
Spring Arbor  (NAIA-D2)  63,  Hope  55
UW-Stout  72,  Viterbo  (NAIA-D2)  61
Valparaiso  (NCAA-D1)  83,  Concordia (Wis.)  57
Warner Pacific  (NAIA-D2)  96,  Puget Sound  88
Waynesburg  80,  Penn State Fayette  (USCAA)  56
William and Mary  (NCAA-D1)  94,  Vassar  48

Standings with UMPI still considered D3   (waiting for any more input)

D3 record vs:
                    W         L           
NCAA D1       0         39
NCAA D2      10        37
NAIA D1        8         20
NAIA D2       85        86             
NCCAA         31        14
USCAA         57        17
Other           33         2

[Rhodes Scholar]

hopefan: Regarding Maine-Presque Isle, I would agree with Ralph. The Owls are a member of  the Sunrise Conference (an NAIA 2 conference), and according to the NAIA website they are declaring for the NAIA tournament. Thus, I'd classify them NAIA 2 this year unless different info comes along.

The Army-Mount Saint Vincent game was very close from the opening tip. Army led by one at the half and the game was tied at 54 with 5:10 remaining. With the win, Army goes to 8-2 on the year.