D3 vs. D1/D2/NAIA/NCCAA

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

Two big exhibitions today.  Platteville kept it within 28 points against Wisconsin and WashU is holding their own at Illinois (trailing 30-40 at the half).

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

WashU came back from 28 down to lose 75-82.  They won the rebounding battle.  The Bears should be a pretty formidable team this season.

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

Let's keep this in perspective. Illinois apparently only started two of it's projected starters and one of their top players I don't think played at all... not to mention the fact, clearly stepped off the gas in the last quarter. I know we all love seeing a D3 play well against a D1 school (Transy jumping out on Kentucky a few years ago was fun to watch)... but these games rarely translate into anything we can use about the season ahead.

[WUPHF]

Let's keep this in perspective. Illinois apparently only started two of it's projected starters and one of their top players I don't think played at all... not to mention the fact, clearly stepped off the gas in the last quarter. I know we all love seeing a D3 play well against a D1 school (Transy jumping out on Kentucky a few years ago was fun to watch)... but these games rarely translate into anything we can use about the season ahead.

I know I can only comment on this so many times before people assume that I am unable to keep it in perspective, but a few thoughts.

Illinois only played 10 guys and starters featured throughout...and though the personal issues, including injuries continue, they still played at least four consensus Top 100 guys.  A guy like Jalen Coleman-Lands is a top guy on a lot of Division I teams.

There are two positions on online forums regarding exhibition games in general and inter-Division exhibition games in particular.  Rarely translate on the one hand and evidence of a formidable team on the other.  And rarely does one opinion get posted without the other soon following.  If we were all watching this game in person, we would probably find lots of examples of play that would signal a good season ahead.

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

Let's keep this in perspective. Illinois apparently only started two of it's projected starters and one of their top players I don't think played at all... not to mention the fact, clearly stepped off the gas in the last quarter. I know we all love seeing a D3 play well against a D1 school (Transy jumping out on Kentucky a few years ago was fun to watch)... but these games rarely translate into anything we can use about the season ahead.

I agree.  I was watching the live stats, even when they were down 28, WashU was still only two rebounds behind.  When they were actually playing the best Illinois threw out there, they were committing ridiculous turnovers (as expected), but they hit the boards the whole game.  That's what was most impressive to me.

[jaybird44]

This is my two cents worth...well actually 10 cents, having broadcast the game court side:

Illinois' players may have taken their collective feet off the pedal in the 2nd half, but let's look at the 1st half when there was no inclination to coast leisurely to the finish.  Wash-U jumped out to a 7-2 lead, led at its high-water mark by 7 (24-17) and held the lead for most of the half before the Illini surged and took a 10-point lead at halftime.

A 10-point lead.  By a D-1 Big 10 team that had 6 of their top 7 scorers back, of which 4 of them saw extensive playing time last season--between 28 and 34 game appearances and between 16-34 starting assignments.  Including Malcolm Hill, a 2nd-team Big 10 selection, and a Jerry West finalist. Including two players at 6'10" and another at 6'11" (Mike Thorne Jr., a Charlotte transfer that had averaged 10.1 ppg and 7.3 rpg there before his departure).  Jalen Coleman-Lands, who did not start Sunday, was a top-50 HS recruit...and Aaron Jordan, who did start Sunday, was 5th in the balloting for Mr. Illinois Basketball in HS.  Tracy Abrams, who was injured the last two seasons, was a double-digit point producer per game in 2013 and 2014.

This was not an Illini lineup that rolled out 4 walk-ons and the team manager out of the floor to start the game.  This was a legit D-1 lineup--not of the standards of Duke or Kentucky, but a lineup from a 15-19 team that won two Big 10 Tournament games last season.  And yet, Wash-U, minus three of its pivotal starters for much of the 1st half because of early foul trouble (Andrew Sanders, David Schmelter, and Matt Highsmith--played between 5-8 minutes each) outrebounded Illinois 20-16 in the first half and outshot Illinois 42%-33%.  Outscored the Illini in the paint 10-8.  There were many murmurs and outright grumbles expressed by the Illinois fans, expecting the obligatory blowout of a Division III team, as the first half came to an end.

2nd Half:  When the Illini hit its high-water mark of a 29-point lead with 11:39 left, it thought it could glide the rest of the way to a rout.  But, Wash-U realized that and was not too happy about it--so the Bears responded by cutting the deficit to 21, prompting Illinois to put its starters back in the game.  However, the Bears kept slashing away, outworking and outplaying whoever was on the floor for the Illini...all the way to the end of the game when the final deficit was 7...and if there would've been 5 more minutes on the clock, Wash-U very well could've won the game. 

Final stats:  Wash-U outscored Illinois 45-42 in the 2nd half.  38-38 in points in the paint.  Illinois, despite having an advantage of 20 turnovers to Wash-U's 27, only outscored the Bears 29-26 in points off of turnovers (Wash-U outscored Illinois 22-16 in this POT category in the 2nd half).  Illinois won the game on fast-break situations (14-2 edge in points) and at the free throw line (25-37, compared to Wash-U's 13-19).  D-1 athleticism won the day, but barely.

Malcolm Hill was held to 4-13 shooting and 11 points in 27 minutes. 6'10" Maverick Morgan had 20 points, 6'10" Michael Finke had 13 points, and Coleman-Lands had 11 points on 3-9 shooting.  Only 10 players of the 16-man roster played (Kipper Nichols is not eligible until Dec. 17)...so the key players for Illinois this season all logged significant minutes in the game.  Wash-U outshot Illinois 47%-43% overall and 29%-18% from beyond the arc.

Post-game quotes:  "Wash-U was tougher for a majority of the game."--Illini head coach John Groce.  And, the quote that was the most telling of how the game unfolded from start to finish was made by Wash-U's Kevin Kucera:  "We didn't come here to get blown out.  We came here to win."

While the outcome from this game certainly doesn't guarantee anything to anybody, it does indicate that Wash-U has the potential to be a very good team...one that could win the UAA and get into the NCAA Tournament.  Will that potential become reality?  We'll see.  But, I believe the perspectives of those who were there to see the game in person should be assessed, before an assumption is made that the outcome is largely irrelevant and brushed off like so much dandruff.  Context matters, even in an exhibition game.

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

Whitworth is playing at Montana tonight.  With all this talk of d3 teams hanging with d1, this might be one to watch.  Certainly their talent levels are a lot closer than the games we had this weekend.

[sac]

Montana 90  Whitworth 80

[(509)Rat]

Montana's guards were athletic enough to get fouled and get to the FT line. As a team the Grizzly shot well from the 3pt line too (again, primarily the guards). Offensively Whitworth didn't have problems scoring, and actually had a very slight advantage in FG%. Montana getting to the line and hitting a couple more 3s was the difference, with a couple of those opportunities being a result of out rebounding the Pirates. From a box score standpoint, this one looked like a 10pt game, stats seemed pretty darn representative of how this one played out. It was tied 38-38 at the half and Montana didn't go any deeper into their bench than Whitworth did. It was a good result for Whitworth against a d1 team that has made recent NCAA tourneys but will likely just miss this year if they finish second in the Big Sky as predicted.

[hopefan]

Scores of 11/15/16:

EXHIBITION GAMES ARE NOT INCLUDED

VMI (NCAA-D1)  78 , Southern Virginia  47
Bryant (NCAA-D1)  88 , Salve Regina  61
Hanover   97 ,  Boyce  (NCCAA-D2)   42
Berea  99,  Johnson (Tn.)  (NCCAA-D2)  68
Emmaus (other)  74 , Maranatha Baptist  66
UC Santa Cruz  68,  UC-Merced  (NAIA-D2)  56
George Mason (NCAA-D1)  90 , Lebanon Valley  65
Fairleigh Dickinson (NCAA-D1)  96 , FDU-Florham  48
King's   77 ,  Penn St.-Hazleton  (USCAA)   66
Wilkes   85 ,  Penn St.-Wilkes Barre  (USCAA)   54
Green Mountain   87 ,  St. Joseph's (Vt.)  (USCAA)   71
Wheaton (Mass.)  70,  Dean College  (uscaa)  59
Warner Pacific (NAIA-D2)  94 , Lewis and Clark  93
Puget Sound  117,  Northwest Indian College  (Other)  41
Chapman   88 ,  La Sierra  (NAIA-D2)   63
Mount St. Vincent   66 ,  Fisher  (NAIA-D2)   54
Vaughn (USCAA)  77 , SUNY-Purchase  112
Missouri S&T (NCAA-D2) 104, Principia 65
LaGrange   73 ,  Pensacola Christian  (NCCAA-D2)   59
UW-Stout  81,  Minnesota Crookston  (NCAA-D2)  73


D3 versus      
   W   L
NCAA-D1   0   4
NCAA-D2   1   1
NAIA-D1   0   0
NAIA-D2   3   1
NCCAA-D1   0   0
NCCAA-D2   3   0
USCAA   4   1
Other   1   1

[ronk]

Scores of 11/15/16:

EXHIBITION GAMES ARE NOT INCLUDED

VMI (NCAA-D1)  78 , Southern Virginia  47
Bryant (NCAA-D1)  88 , Salve Regina  61
Hanover   97 ,  Boyce  (NCCAA-D2)   42
Berea  99,  Johnson (Tn.)  (NCCAA-D2)  68
Emmaus (other)  74 , Maranatha Baptist  66
UC Santa Cruz  68,  UC-Merced  (NAIA-D2)  56
George Mason (NCAA-D1)  90 , Lebanon Valley  65
Fairleigh Dickinson (NCAA-D1)  96 , FDU-Florham  48
King's   77 ,  Penn St.-Hazleton  (USCAA)   66
Wilkes   85 ,  Penn St.-Wilkes Barre  (USCAA)   54
Green Mountain   87 ,  St. Joseph's (Vt.)  (USCAA)   71
Wheaton (Mass.)  70,  Dean College  (uscaa)  59
Warner Pacific (NAIA-D2)  94 , Lewis and Clark  93
Puget Sound  117,  Northwest Indian College  (Other)  41
Chapman   88 ,  La Sierra  (NAIA-D2)   63
Mount St. Vincent   66 ,  Fisher  (NAIA-D2)   54
Vaughn (USCAA)  77 , SUNY-Purchase  112
Missouri S&T (NCAA-D2) 104, Principia 65
LaGrange   73 ,  Pensacola Christian  (NCCAA-D2)   59
UW-Stout  81,  Minnesota Crookston  (NCAA-D2)  73


D3 versus      
   W   L
NCAA-D1   0   4
NCAA-D2   1   1
NAIA-D1   0   0
NAIA-D2   3   1
NCCAA-D1   0   0
NCCAA-D2   3   0
USCAA   4   1
Other   1   1

Is the distinction from exhibition games solely that exhibitions take place before Nov 15?

[hopefan]

No.. exhibition games are scheduled as such and may take place on 11/15 and beyond... several games were played last night that were exhibition games, but were listed on D3hoops scoreboard, making things all the more confusing... D3hoops dos not include them in the individual team scores, unless in error... for instance, Westminster Mo beat Maryville Mo (D2) last night... the score is listed on the scoreboard, but not on Westminster's Schedule page...

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

We try not to include exhibition games on the schedule pages or elsewhere, but sometimes they slip past or another location may have a different setting (allowing you to see who is at least in action, even if the game does not count).

Per exhibition: currently, D3s can play higher division teams Nov. 15 onward and have it count as an exhibition, if they want. The twist is that the higher division teams can count them as "real" games as long as it is after their respective start date(s). It can be confusing sometimes. Not sure if that rule will stick (it has only been around for a couple of seasons after the previous rule was even more confusing) with conversations taking place about how many games, real or not real, being played by programs in all sports. Very inside-baseball conversation there.

[Pat Coleman]

We try not to include exhibition games on the schedule pages or elsewhere, but sometimes they slip past or another location may have a different setting (allowing you to see who is at least in action, even if the game does not count).

We do list exhibitions on the daily schedule pages. That's intentional and dating from when they were confined to the pre-Nov. 15 dates, made for people being able to use our daily schedule pages in the preseason for something useful.

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

We try not to include exhibition games on the schedule pages or elsewhere, but sometimes they slip past or another location may have a different setting (allowing you to see who is at least in action, even if the game does not count).

We do list exhibitions on the daily schedule pages. That's intentional and dating from when they were confined to the pre-Nov. 15 dates, made for people being able to use our daily schedule pages in the preseason for something useful.

Oh, that's right. I am thinking of something else. Duh. Brain is mush this week.