WBB: Northwest Conference

[d3wbbfan]

George Fox shook off ice-cold shooting for the first 80% of the game late in the second half, storming back late to defeat Wisconsin Lutheran 65-58.

Down 47-34 with less than 7:00 to play, the Bruins ended the game on 31-11 scoring run to sweep the weekend. And with fellow tourney participant DePauw beating WLU by one Saturday, and also coming from behind today to beat UW-Whitewater 63-54, the two perennial Wisconsin DIII powers ended the weekend 0-4.

Game-long, full court George Fox defensive pressure clearly caught up with the Warriors late, creating numerous empty trips, turnovers and missed free throws. The Bruins ice-cold 3-pt shooting for most of the night left WLU more than content to stay in their zone defense. But then Sammy Nalaui quickly got hot, connecting on 3-balls at both the 6:22 and 5:53 marks. The Warriors then had to quickly come out on D, which opened up the short corner down low, which Justine Benner, Lauren Codling and Kennedy Hobert were then repeatedly able to exploit, and convert into points down low. Jami Morris then sealed the Fox victory with two more late 3's, as well as going 6-6 from the FT line in the final 90 seconds.

[Captain_Joe08]

George Fox shook off ice-cold shooting for the first 80% of the game late in the second half, storming back late to defeat Wisconsin Lutheran 65-58.

Down 47-34 with less than 7:00 to play, the Bruins ended the game on 31-11 scoring run to sweep the weekend. And with fellow tourney participant DePauw beating WLU by one Saturday, and also coming from behind today to beat UW-Whitewater 63-54, the two perennial Wisconsin DIII powers ended the weekend 0-4.

Game-long, full court George Fox defensive pressure clearly caught up with the Warriors late, creating numerous empty trips, turnovers and missed free throws. The Bruins ice-cold 3-pt shooting for most of the night left WLU more than content to stay in their zone defense. But then Sammy Nalaui quickly got hot, connecting on 3-balls at both the 6:22 and 5:53 marks. The Warriors then had to quickly come out on D, which opened up the short corner down low, which Justine Benner, Lauren Codling and Kennedy Hobert were then repeatedly able to exploit, and convert into points down low. Jami Morris then sealed the Fox victory with two more late 3's, as well as going 6-6 from the FT line in the final 90 seconds.

Technically my alma mater is university but they kept the college due to changing everything that is WLC around campus from what I heard from a professor once lol.

WLC can play with the marquee teams in the top 25 but ever since they played at Calvin in the tournament a few years back, I have noticed that they seem to have one or two things that seem to go against them in close games against top teams. Hopefully, that can change when they head to Vegas in December. They were picked unaminously to win the NACC (which is surprising IMO) so they will use their two games against very good competition when they open conference play next weekend.

It's always nice to see nationally ranked teams come to play in the opening season tournament. Hopefully, you guys enjoying Milwaukee!

[d3wbbfan]

I wasn't gonna pay $7.95 to watch the rematch between Whitworth and Eastern Oregon out in Idaho tonight, even though the earlier game in Spokane was an entertaining one, with the Bucs coming from behind for the win, in their season opener. The NAIA Mountaineers are always a solid team, though, and that loss to Whitworth was their only blemish so far. But I kept on eye on Live Stats. Great game! EO got the jump early, leading by as much as 17 in the first half, 32-15. Not a whole lot going right for the Pirates early on, although they managed to narrow the gap to seven by halftime, at 37-30.

But, as I've witnessed time and time again, everything about Whitworth's game seems to elevate during the second half. One of their staples is getting to the FT line, where their 87% proficiency as a team is only a slight improvement over last season. But points from there just didn't materialize tonight, however, as the Bucs shot just five in total, making only 2. But after managing to reduce the deficit to three on several occasions, a layup by Eastern Oregon's Madeline Laan with 4:08 left stretched the Mountaineer lead back out to 8, at 62-54, putting Whitworth squarely behind the 8-ball. But then wily veteran Coach Helen Higgs did her Roberto Duran impression, declared "No Mas!" to her troops, and, as is usually the case, the other team simply cannot score again. From there, Whitworth scored the game's final nine points, and grabbed their first and only lead of the game on a Jessica Kramer jumper with just :04 left. The game-winning hoop had to be especially sweet for Kramer, the 5'9" SR, who spent her first two seasons at the very end of the bench for Coach Anji Weissenfluh at Eastern Oregon before transferring to Whitworth, where she's now a starter averaging double figures. Katara Belton-Sharp led the Pirates with 15 points, while Kendra Knutson chipped in with 11. EO drops to 6-2. Whitworth improves to 3-0, and takes on event host College Of Idaho Saturday.     

Imitation is the highest form of flattery, and it's patently obvious that much-improved George Fox has borrowed a huge chunk of their 14-15 team's new defensive philosophy from Higgs, who beat the Bruins in both the NWC tourney and the NCAAs last season. Or at least Coach Michael Meek decided, "If you can't beat 'em, join 'em." George Fox has the league's most talent this year. Still, I've marked both 1/17/15 (in Newberg) and 2/13/15 (in Spokane) on my calendar. Those two Bruin-Buc NWC games are gonna be like two gladiators going 15 rounds! And an added rematch or two in the league final and/or NCAAs wouldn't shock me in the least.

Whitman evens their record at 2-2, with an easy 64-46 win over winless Iowa Wesleyan, down in Colorado. They'll take on an also-winless Colorado College team Saturday. The Missionaries are still a work in progress. Giving two FY's like Emily Rommel and Casey Poe solid minutes right away clearly goes against every fiber of Michelle Ferenz' being, but she has absolutely no choice. I live and breathe defense just like she does, so I understand that "they just don't understand the first thing about college basketball yet" anxiety. Of course, she's right. But that doesn't matter. It's not ideal, but she needs to play them now, and get them up to speed ASAP, as best she can, to have any real chance to hang with George Fox, Whitworth and Puget Sound later. They are more than capable. Rommel is a stud, and is already playing like an upperclassmen. And mark my words, Poe will be right behind her in a month or two. She needs to play. Now. Every minute of PT Casey Poe gets now will pay off 10-fold for Whitman in February. Both frosh are natural leaders on the floor. Ferenz' loyal, classy, dues-paying seniors just aren't talented enough to help Whitman beat the other NWC contenders. But they can still contribute in a huge way. Love and support the seven Whitman freshmen every day. Help the young ones get up to speed. Get Eve Goldman in the weight room. She's smart, talented, and she's a pure shooter. SR Marah Alindogen hardly played at all for Whitman last year, but her dynamic personality and popularity within the team was absolutely critical to their success.   

The fact that neither McDonald nor Maeda are even 1% better at the FT line this year (which was easily fixable, with commitment and hard work) is completely inexcusable to me. The SO Ketner's results haven't been anywhere as consistent as they need to be yet, on either O or D. But Alysse is a very clutch player in high-pressure situations (which is worth its weight in gold), she possesses obvious inside-outside ability on O, and her effort is always there. Chelsi Brewer has been as consistent as Johns so far during games, and I am totally mystified as to why she isn't getting twice the minutes that she has thus far. The SO has clearly taken very seriously her personal goal of bringing everything to the team that her sister (Tiffani Traver) brought to Whitman during last year's FF run, right down to changing her number to Tiffani's old #4. And she has done every bit of that so far. To me, there just aren't very many '14-15 Missionary players that you can say that about so far. Yet the reward of more minutes for Brewer hasn't followed. To me, a core value of coaching is to reward players who've tangibly improved their games through off-season hard work. And, to an extent, vise versa.       

But I reiterate: Coach Michelle Ferenz is no dummy. She knows *darn* well that having Heather Johns scoring 35ppg in their Nov/Dec games isn't at all in either Heather's or her team's best Feb/March interests. But once Ferenz does finally give Johns the go ahead to "start doing her thing", (and she will eventually), Whitman will instantly look 1000 times better as a team. Heather Johns can basically score at will. At season's end, Johns' should produce a teaching video, about how to properly drive, slash and penetrate to the goal for two points. Now, getting a back screen or two from her teammates never hurts, but that's optional in her case. Just basically clear out, and watch Heather score her two points. Done. Very few, if any DIII teams have a player that can truly do that. Johns' immense contributions to Whitman's historic past two seasons cannot possibly be overstated. Yes, Anderegg, White and Traver are all now truly missed by Whitman. They were all fantastic. But the truth is that even they "rode the back of their #1 option" (Johns) during some of their most pressure-packed moments last season. Whitman played a surprising number of close games in '13-'14. They blew very few teams out. And Johns was the one that ultimately came through for them, time and time again. And she's still on the team this year. But Ferenz needs her as fresh as humanly possible for later in the year, and absolutely cannot wear her out early on. Whitman's gonna need 7 or 8 reliable players. Thankfully, McDonald is finally starting to use her speed and athleticism to score a few points, to rebound some, and to add some assists. If Ferenz is gonna stay with her, it is vital that Hailey further grow her game - and in a hurry. Maeda is their top returning frontcourt player, and they badly need her to average close to a double-double. She was an unsung hero for Whitman last year. But she's a starter now, and she's playing at nowhere near that level at the moment. Bottom line: I don't think that Coach Ferenz really minds having her team flying "below the radar" right now. Last year was all about expectations and pressure. But that gets old after a while. This is a different Whitman group. And while there's a lot of work to do, in the end, I still think that Ferenz, Johns and Co. will manage to make one more trip to the NCAAs together. We'll see.

[d3wbbfan]

Watched Puget Sound's last two games. 5-0 so far. They should finish their pre-conference at 9-0. Coach Loree Payne's been great there since Day 1. Very veteran bunch this year - 6 SRs. Seems like starters Katy Ainslie (15.4ppg), Amanda Forshay (11.6ppg) and G Ashley Agcaolli have been there forever, with fellow vets Hannah Lekson, Olivia Roberts and Erin Stumbaugh all getting regular minutes in the games I saw. JR Emily Sheldon (12ppg) and SO Alex Noren are their other starters. JR F Allie Wyszynski rounds out their rotation, according to their stats, although I saw FR G Katie Vold have an excellent game from long range vs Concordia-Moorhead.

If the Loggers are gonna claim an NCAA bid, this is their year to do it. I always find myself rooting for teams like this. How can you not? They never take a play off, are always where there are supposed to be, make good decisions, execute properly, and have each developed their own games to the best of their God-given abilities. What more could any coach or fan ask for?

Still, while Puget Sound's overall team defense compares favorably with the best DIII teams in the country, to me, their NCAA slot depends on Michelle Ferenz at Whitman. Like I've said earlier, if Buse/Gray/Lovelace continue to see double-digits minutes for Whitman all year, Puget Sound will go to the NCAAs, and Whitman will stay home. Because the Loggers' battle-tested veterans are exponentially better than all of Ferenz' SRs not named Johns. No contest. But Whitman has three "X" factors. 1) Ferenz has already been there and done that, 2) Heather Johns is back, and 3) Whitman, thanks to their long NCAA runs the past two years, benefitted from it by bringing in the best recruiting class in the league. And it's not just Rommel and Poe. The 6'2" FY, Kendra Winchester, can also help Whitman right away. She has GREAT hands. She doesn't always use a "rhythm dribble" before making a post move, she keeps her head up, she sees the floor well from the high post, and she is a good passer. In 2014, it seems like so many 6-foot + DI, II and III WBB players hate physical contact, are allergic to paint, and say to anyone who will listen that they are a tall guard, not a front court player. This is always selfish, and is never in a team's best interests. Kendra, however, likes it down low. And Whitman needs her to be down low. And that's 90% of the battle. She gives consistent effort, and she enjoys playing the game of basketball. That's not a given. Sadly, many big girls take up the sport simply because of their height. But not Winchester. She's into it. Yeah, there's still room for some added fitness and strength, but Kendra's already made great strides in that regard.   

I'm also very surprised to see the 5'8" FY Chanel Knight getting so few minutes early. Now I don't see her in practice every day, but I think Coach Ferenz may be making a mistake here. I know that Knight doesn't have the classic, chiseled "basketball body" that Ferenz normally recruits, and clearly prefers. And that she's a "tweener", height-wise. But I've seen kids like her before. And what she *is* is a basketball player. Chanel seems surprisingly quick and athletic, to my eyes, and seems to have a knack for being in the right place at the right time. I do not see Knight as a defensive liability, either. I think Chanel could give Whitman quality minutes as a 3 or an undersized 4 player. Right now. Why not give it a try? Especially with the FY Sierra McGarity hurt. There are two games with Walla Walla coming up. Coach already knows what Buse, Gray and Lovelace can do. One way to effectively replace Anderegg's and White's defensive prowess is with simple numbers up front. In a pickup game of 2-on-2 to 11 today, I'd put a dollar on Winchester and Knight beating Buse and Gray. More youth and more talent, over more experience but less talent. And I mean no disrespect to those Whitman seniors, whatsoever. I'm trying to keep my emotions out of my decision here. Johns, Ketner and Brewer are a very solid trio at guard, and after seeing Goldman a couple of times now, I do now see what Coach has been seeing, and agree that a year of strength training and experience is what's best for Eve in '14-15. And I may soon feel the exact same way about Kendra and Chanel, after seeing them on the floor more.

It's just that I've seen players both exceed and not meet my own expectation level for them, every single season, as long as I've been involved in basketball. For example, I just now saw UConn FR Kia Nurse win the MVP of an 8-team T'Giving tourney in FL. It was 100% deserved. Breanna Stewart did not even make the all-tourney team. She played OK, but that decision was also 100% deserved. Who saw that coming back on Friday morning? Nobody. What if Kendra Winchester or Chanel Knight go off for a double-double vs Walla Walla? Now does that mean either one is then ready for the likes of Whitworth or George Fox? Absolutely not. But I've seen a good FY performance or two boost a newbie's confidence 1000-fold. What would happen if Rommel and Winchester were ever in a game together? I bet Emily would thrive playing some minutes at the 4 spot. And I'm sure a "Twin Towers" look would give NWC teams something new to worry about, that they're not too worried about when they're taking Katie Gray to the basket. That's my only point. A high risk idea, but with high reward. It might not work. But then again, it might. Every FY starts off playing like a deer in headlights. Rommel's already pushed past that, and is already up to speed on the college game. She will absolutely be the NWC's freshman of the year. It would be nice if Poe, Winchester and Knight, if nothing else, were at least able to breathe and function normally on the floor by the NWC opener. It is only then that their play and on-floor contributions can be properly evaluated. Whether or not either of the last two end up as a part of the '14-15 primary rotation is uncertain. And it's asking a lot of them, I know. I just sense that it's an "automatic no" in the eyes of Coach right now. 

I've always thought that experienced players in sports is overrated. For years, I've seen coaches see a 17-year-old, raw, natural physical talent and think, "All I have to do is teach them the game." Well, the coach almost always fails at this. To me, players at age 17 are already 75%+ as good as they're ever gonna be. Sadly, many are already 100% as good as they will ever be. Coaches will fight me on that point, until the day I die. But that still doesn't mean I'm wrong. That's true of people in every walk of life. Same thing with the transition from HS to college BB. There is a big difference, of course. Yet I've seen many players adjust to it almost immediately, and others who never make the leap. Each player handles it differently. The one thing coaches need to do is to give those players with enough talent to contribute a grasp of the team's overall O and D system, then to make sure they understand it by heart, so they can execute it "automatically". Only then can a player be relaxed/confident enough to start to move beyond the teaching, and to then show his/her coach and teammates the special, individual O/D skills they possess. I've found most of this "big transition stuff" to be coach-speak. And to harp on it only makes it a bigger obstacle for those struggling with it.

What I have always loved about watching Whitman's set offense is that it's not real complicated. It's based on precision and timing, and is very effective. At its core is solid spacing and the key, diagonal pass made from the high to the low post. So I fail to see why executing it well is beyond the grasp of the FR. Will they execute it 100% as well as the SRs? No. But can they execute it 75-80% as well, by Feb? Yes. And I believe that's good enough to have them be on the floor.   

Back to Puget Sound. Their team D is just not at the level of either Whitworth or George Fox right now. In their "defense", the only way it possibly could is if Puget Sound pressed at least 75% of the game, and kept shuttling in 9 to 11 players, who were ordered to play D as if their lives depended on it for the next 4-5 minutes, until the next 5 players came in, with the exact same marching orders. The two leagues I always watch and enjoy the most are the NWC and the NESCAC. And while both Tufts and Williams have well deserved reputations as exceptional defensive squads, neither one plays, or even approaches defense the way Whitworth does (or the way George Fox is so far this year.) Whitworth did also play this way on D last year, but because all 3 NWC teams were stuck in the same 4-team 1st & 2nd round '13-14 NCAA pod, due to geography, very few DIII fans had the pleasure to watch Whitworth in action. They were so "on point" as a team late last year, to me they were an absolute lock to reach the Sweet 16/Elite 8. The fact that Whitworth had beaten previously-undefeated Whitman in the NWC title game, and then gave the Missionaries' by far their toughest NCAA game until the final was absolutely no surprise to me at all, as a Whitman supporter. And while the Pirates' D is performing at the very same, maniacal level of effectiveness so far this season, and they're off to a 4-0 start, early on they are clearly missing the clutch offensive production of graduated SRs Kayla Johnson and Kendra Lahue in '14-'15. This is not sour grapes - all college hoop squads must deal with graduation losses. And new options on O are already stepping up for Whitworth. I just lament that more DIII fans across the country didn't get to watch Whitworth play in the NCAAs last year. Whitworth was a great, very successful team in a very unique way, that was unusually exciting to watch. Don't believe me? If you can, go back and watch the 2nd half of either of the last two Whitman-Whitworth games in '13-'14. As A Whitman fan, moving on in the NCAAs from there, playing the Christopher Newports, UW-Whitewaters, or even during the famous "asterisk" St. Thomas More game, there was a complete confidence. A relief, almost. Because we all knew none of these teams played defense even 1/10th as effectively as Whitworth had. There's a reason why one of the top young DIII coaches in the country (Michael Meek) totally junked his defense, and adopted Helen Higgs' system this year. Because it is *that* good. And is *that* effective in shutting down/tiring out opponents, and winning games against the top teams. For the rest of DIII, consider yourself warned. Because no one else is playing team defense at their level right now. Anywhere.

[gordonmann]

Thanks for the thorough reports, d3wbbfan.

They are very helpful to people like me who are trying assess D3 teams from the other side of the country.

[d3wbbfan]

Thanks, Gordon. That means a lot, especially coming from a seasoned scribe like yourself.

To me, just two NWC teams are in the "average to good" category. Willamette and Linfield, in that order. They are both young squads, but I've really been impressed with now 3rd-year Willamette coach Peg Swadener, both last season and this year so far. The Bearcats have been a down program forever in WBB, but there is now clearly light for them at the end of this tunnel. They're my bet for 5th. Linfield 6th.

You may want to update your D3 WBB page for Lewis & Clark. The new Pio coach is Asha Jordan. Over the summer, former HC Juli Fulks moved back closer to where she's from, and is now the HC at Transylvania (for which D3 already has updated. Currently, D3 shows Fulks as the HC of both programs.)

Lewis & Clark continues a slide in the wrong direction, W-L wise, that began last season. The Pios are down as a program even further this year, and, to my eyes, are now among the NWC's bottom three, along with Pacific Lutheran and Pacifc (Ore.).

[d3wbbfan]

George Fox (7-0) sweeps two in Cali: 63-52 Fri at Cal Lutheran. Benner 20, Codling 12, with Naluai 11 off the bench, and then 63-48 Sat at Claremont-Mudd-Scripps. Benner and Naluai 12, Codling and Jami Morris (formerly Roos) 10 each. I saw all of both games. The Bruins mostly backed off of their press, while still shuttling players in/out every couple of minutes. Now that Coach Meek knows his team has the constant-pressure-on-D thing down pat, he changed things up a bit, trying to get more points using his conventional offensive sets.

To me, Meek deciding to continuing to shuttle in players without him pressing/having his kids exert max D effort wasn't very effective. I understand that he has 9-10 quality players he wants to give PT to. But over this weekend, the "3 through 9" players in the rotation just never seemed to be able to stay out there long enough to get into much of an offensive flow.

Kennedy Hobert, a SO 4-spot player I've liked so far, was DNP this weekend - must be hurt. They're a better team when Hobert gives them minutes. This gave the 6'3" SO C, Sydney Beadle, minutes she hadn't seen before. And although Fox has another 6'3" FY on the roster (Jamieson), I haven't seen her play yet. Beadle gives the Bruins the traditional post presence they had recently with Munger, and then last season with the now-with-Concordia (OR) Jordyn Peacock. She's got some game, good hands and a solid basketball body, but Beadle will be much better next year. Meek's been going with a Codling/Benner combo at the 4/5 spots. Morris has become even more important to her team this year. She's this year's leader. To her credit, she's added a nice drive-to-the-goal game to her existing 3-point skills, and can easily move over to the PG spot when Meek rests Blizzard. Heckendorf is a coaches' dream out there. Every single skill of hers is above average. You don't realize how much smoother she makes things run out there for Fox until Dacia's out of the game. The JR Sammy Naluai is their quickest player, perhaps the team's best from 3, and has really stepped up for them this year. She's gonna be one of the five players out there at the end of big games for Fox this year, in place of the SO starter Dummer. So while the Bruins took care of business on the road this weekend, they weren't exactly impressive. Both games only had about a 6-8 point lead for Fox, with 5:00 to go. Still, Meek never seemed worried. As if he could go "pedal to the metal" at any time, had he felt the need to. He didn't.

Whitworth visited TX and also stays unbeaten, knocking off TX Lutheran 78-64 Fri, and Southwestern (TX) 73-57. I saw all of the first game. I hadn't seen Bulldog coach Mel Dixon before. I'm not a big fan of any coach who complains *every* time a foul or a possession went against his team - especially when he/she is playing at home. After a while, the refs just ignored him. (In fact, the TLU game day event manager, sitting in a chair in the corner, nearly got himself T'd up, which was also pretty funny. Isn't it his job to maintain order?)          LOTS of fouls called. Way too many. And most were unfavorable to Whitworth. Still, Helen Higgs remained cool as a cucumber throughout. I don't know what has happened to SR Jessica Kramer, since her game-winning putback vs Eastern Oregon. Did she decide to retire on a good note? Because she hasn't played one second since. And the Bucs really miss her. The Pirates had major foul trouble to their already-undersized starters at the 4/5, Katara Belton-Sharp and Faith Emerson, as well as SR G Kendra Knutson. This forced Higgs to *have* to play two classy veterans that, God bless them, really don't have a lick of offensive basketball ability between them: JoJo Nicolas and Briann Maley. You'll get a little D and a few boards from them. That's about it. I felt like I was watching TX Lutheran with a two-man advantage vs Whitworth, in a hockey game. But it was basketball. 5 Bulldogs vs 3 Pirates.

Nip and tuck the whole way, it was still just a 4-pt Buc lead, at 62-58, with 4:39 to go. Surely an area of eternal comfort for Coach Higgs in a foul-fest, road game like this is that, sooner or later, her team will also get into the bonus, and start shooting free throws. And even though TX Lutheran went a blistering 20-24 from the line, predictably, Whitworth sank all of their last 10, as part of a game-ending, 16-6 Buc run. Their best player, JR KC McConnell (and a lock for 1st team All-NWC), was fantastic in the win, scoring 23 points in a season-high 33 minutes. Also co-starring was their only other starter not in foul trouble, G Lexie Zappone. Not normally a huge scorer, Zappone stepped up in a major way, adding 18 points, including 3 clutch 3-balls (usually Belton-Sharp's forte), to keep the Bulldog D honest, in a season-high 34 minutes. Knutson added 12, despite her foul trouble. Higgs' also has her own "Dacia Heckendorf-type" player, in 5'8" JR Alexis McLeod. A top defender for Higgs, McLeod chipped in with 7 points, but most importantly gave Whitworth 23 key minutes during the "emergency, patchwork" lineup of her, McConnell, Zappone, Nicolas and Maley. All munchkins out there - 5 guards, basically. I still have no clue how Whitworth managed to tread water with TX Lutheran - an NCAA team last year, with all of their players back, including a skilled 6'4" post. Against a team/coach that *really* wanted the W that day. On the road. With those five particular players. And for as long as Higgs had to keep them in there. But they did. I saw it with my own eyes. No wonder Higgs gave Nicolas and Maley specific postgame props. Nicolas, who surely has *the* worst shooting form I've ever seen, somehow managed to snag 7 boards, all while playing the 5 spot for Whitworth, at 5'8".

Sat, it was the Pirates Vs. The Pirates, as Whitworth traveled to Southwestern (TX). KC McConnell exploded for 28 points. Normally known for her mid-range game, she nailed 6 3-pointers. Zappone and Emerson chipped in with 10. Leading just 40-35 at the half, a McConnell 3-ball with 14:51 to go grew the Buc lead to 51-39, and Whitworth (6-0) was able to maintain a double-digit lead the rest of the way. 

This is exactly what Whitworth is. Two years ago. And last year. And again this year. Always way too short. Never nearly enough overall talent. Then they win a big game. Must be a fluke. Then they win another big game. Then another. After a while, you just have to give up, shake your head and give the Whitworth WBB program your complete respect. Ask Michael Meek. Ask Michelle Ferenz. Heck, I never even heard of Helen Higgs until just a couple of years ago. And the W-L records at Whitworth over her first 18-19 years looked pretty average. Well I don't know what was happening back then. But all I know is watching her teams play these days is pretty darn impressive to watch. I always feel like I'm watching an underdog. But an underdog that almost always wins. They seem to defy logic! Weird.......

Puget Sound (7-0) also stayed undefeated, winning twice in a round-robin tourney held at two different venues in WA. The Loggers squeaked past the Banana Slugs of UC-Santa Cruz, 53-51. Amanda Forshay, Katy Ainslie and sub Allie Wyszynski scored 10 each. UPS led by 8 at the half, the Slugs cut the lead to just 1 with 2:06 to go, but got no closer. A Santa Cruz 2-pt jumper at the buzzer accounted for the final margin. The Loggers had a much easier time of it Sat, trouncing winless Colorado College 94-45. Forshay led the way with 21, with Emily Sheldon adding 20. The Loggers wrap up their non-conference schedule (and 2014) with two home games: Evergreen St. (NAIA) on 12/10, and Cal Lutheran on 12/20. And while their pre-season SOS hasn't remotely approached that of either George Fox or Whitworth, this veteran squad has met every challenge thus far.

Whitman (4-3) was trying for their first-ever win over perennial NAIA DI (scholarship division) power Lewis-Clark State (ID), on Sat in Walla Walla. The Missionaries played as well as I've seen them play all season, by far, managing to get it to into OT, before falling to the Warriors (11-1) in the extra session, 72-65.

I was by far the most pleased to see the return to form of Hailey Ann Maeda. The top frontcourt reserve for Whitman during last year's run to the NCAA final, Maeda, to be polite, had basically been MIA so far in '14-'15. But that all changed tonight. The 5'10" JR posted a double-double, with 21 points, 10 rebounds and 3 blocks, in a season-high 32 minutes. 5'9" SO G Chelsi Brewer added 13 off the bench, in a season-high 28 minutes. Brewer finally got minutes. Hallelujah!!!!!!!!! SR Heather Johns added 10, but after scoring 8 points early, was then totally shut down by the highly skilled, stingy L-C State defense. Down 3 in the final seconds, Whitman's designed 3-point shot, for either Alysse Ketner or Chelsi Brewer broke down, forcing JR Hailie McDonald to heave up a trey from the far right corner. Her shot clanged off the rim, then bounced up, then circled around the rim and somehow fell through, to force the extra session. But the Warriors outscored Whitman 11-4 in the OT, marking the second time in 7 games this season where Whitman would play 5 extra minutes, but then fall short in OT.

This game was fantastic experience for FYs Emily Rommel and Hawaii native Casey Poe (last name pronounced (Po-A'). I've been waiting for the inevitable time when Coach Ferenz realizes that her SRs not named Johns need to see far less time in games. She's been *much* slower to come around to this thinking than is logical, to be honest. But I think, for her, that the light may finally have come on in OT. After Gray and Buse had combined for their third successive basic skill error early in OT, after the third one, Ferenz finally took a deep, deep breath, pulled Gray, and put Poe in the game. Michelle had to do it. Man, she did *not* want to. But still, she waited too long. Hey, coach is only human. But she's thinking about the person here - a person she cares about - who's given her four years - and not viewing this solely as a basketball player. Coaches just can't coach that way, and be at their best. It's like being a doctor, and trying to operate on your child. Not a good idea. The heart is involved. The only sad part was, by then, Whitman was already too far behind in the OT. Poe is 5'10". She may even be taller. She is rail thin. Long arms. Ferenz is already using Casey as her "good D player" on her late game, O/D switches. But this time, she put Poe in at the 3 spot. Perfect. Although Poe's always played guard in HS, this move will work well. She can play there effectively. She will surely make mistakes. Lots of them. She will learn from them. My only issue now is that Casey's learning curve will be bleeding more into the important NWC games than it honestly had to.

[D O.C.]

Yeah, thanks.
Now that football season is over I just got caught up in FemBall thanks to you.

[d3wbbfan]

Thanks, D.O.C.. Congrats on Linfield making the DIII football Final Four, and for giving the "Warhawk Dynasty" all they could handle!

Willamette (4-4) defeats Wheaton (MA) (5-3), 65-57, in Honolulu. The Lyons were somehow 4th in the latest Top 25's "others receiving votes" category. That said, I would've been stunned if Wheaton won this game. My godson attended Wheaton last year, so I happen to be quite familiar with that team. And like I said in an earlier post, the Bearcats are on the rise. Congrats to Coach Peg Swadener. Two of their losses are to Montclair St and NAIA DI power Montana St-Northern, and a third came on a Jordyn Peacock buzzer-beater vs. Concordia (OR).

The 'Cats are not at all deep. And of their top three (all guards), two are seniors (JoJo DeLong and Katie Kalugin). The other is a RS FR who I loved early on last year (Kylie Towry), but then she got injured and missed the rest of the year. She's back, and averaging 13.5ppg. Towry will surely be the team's backbone, looking ahead. But as my best coaching buddy/mentor would often say to me, "you only really need three *players* to win." And that's exactly what Willamette has this year. Going forward, the legacy of DeLong and Kalugin will be that they helped this long-struggling program finally at least get back to respectability. So I root for those two to get as many W's as possible, during their last go-round. It's still looking like a 5th in the league finish to me (their best in forever.) But next year and beyond largely depends on recruiting (they could really use some size, but the same goes for 90% of all DIII schools, right?), and which among a slew of young players emerge, step up, start producing, and how soon they do so. SO Alex Wert, FR Whitney Anderson and pint-sized PGs Savanna Steele (SO) and Ashley Evans (FR) are likely getting their best chances to do so right now. We'll see.

[d3wbbfan]

Whitworth (9-0) wrapped up the women's NWC non-conference schedule with a 77-61 home win Tuesday night, vs. the Northwest (WA) Eagles (8-5, 2-2 in the NAIA's Cascade Conference). SR Katara Belton-Sharp had a season-high 29; KC McConnell 16; Lexie Zappone 13. Typical Buc effort. For long stretches every game, Whitworth can look absolutely ordinary, and even downright un-impressive as a team. But not to worry. Helen Higgs always coaches the first half of games waiting for the fun part - the second half. She never shows her opponents any of her team's best offensive or defensive sets early, content to run her standard motion offense and man defense, unless/until she needs to "put the hammer down". The Pirates came out sluggish in the 2nd half tonight, and a 6-pt halftime lead quickly became a 5-pt deficit, just 5 minutes in. Whitworth TO. Suddenly, here comes their lethal full-court pressure, which *always* produces numerous steals/turnovers, and their 3 best plays on O are run. These are very reliable point producers and are used sparingly, kept in reserve for when they are most needed. Then, in the blink of an eye, here's that usual 14-0 Whitworth run, and they simply extended the lead out from there. An opponent may beat Helen Higgs, but they will *never* out-coach her - ever. Her girls are human, though. They missed 11 FTs tonight. I don't think the Pirates, as a team, had missed 11 FTs all season before tonight (only a slight exaggeration.) I *love* the idea of having one last non-conference game, just before NWC play. The other league teams should take Higgs' cue on that as well. Holidays/finals/lack of games can make a team rusty. And Whitworth was. But better it show up tonight, instead of playing key league games "cold turkey", after a long stretch of being idle. Here's this weekend's lid-lifter NWC matchups:

Friday, 1/2:      George Fox (9-0) at Linfield (6-3)
                       Whitworth (9-0) at Willamette (5-4)
                       Whitman (5-4) at Lewis & Clark (3-6)
                       Pacific (OR) (4-5) at Pacific Lutheran (3-6)
                       Puget Sound: IDLE                                     


Saturday, 1/3: Puget Sound (9-0) at George Fox
                       Whitworth at Lewis & Clark
                       Whitman at Willamette
                       Pacific (OR) at Linfield
                       Pacific Lutheran: IDLE

I suspect that the teams with the better overall records will prevail Friday, with the exception of Pacific Lutheran. Last year the Lutes always fought hard while their games were close (as was best shown when they shockingly came to within an eyelash of toppling then-unbeaten Whitman, in Walla Walla. They led the entire game, before the cold-shooting Missionaries finally managed to tie it up in the waning seconds of regulation, and then prevailed in OT. But once they fell behind in a game by double-digits, however, PLU would quickly lose interest last season, in the games I saw.) I don't see that happening Friday, however, as I expect the Boxers of Pacific (OR) to bring up the rear in the NWC this season, in large part due to their best scorer from last year (JR Olivia Mayorga-Overtone) not being a part of this year's squad. Coach Sharon Rissmiller is certainly missing her basketball talents early on, although a very soft pre-season schedule (until an Alaska trip last weekend) had hidden that fact a bit.

We must wait until Saturday to get our first two "tasty" NWC matchups, as likely-still-unbeaten George Fox will host unbeaten Puget Sound in Newberg. OR, in the game of the day. I do see the Bruins winning there. However, I think the Whitman at Willamette game could be a very tight one - recent history be damned. I currently rank Whitman #4 in the NWC "power rankings", with Willamette right behind, at #5. Personally, the allocation of Coach Ferenz' 14-15 player minutes has baffled me all season. And she's remained 100% committed to these under-achieving Day 1 rotations through all 9 games. As a result, Whitman's current record is 5-4, when it should honestly have been 7-2, in the worst case scenario. To me, the wounds were self-inflicted.       

Their last game, a home loss to Corban, was a total head scratcher. I do know that over the summer, Michelle's husband Chris went from being the boys asst. BB coach, to getting the girl's head coach gig at Walla Walla HS. Which is great for the Ferenz family, since their twin daughters, SR Mikayla (who's got a DI scholly to play at Idaho) and Kate, get to spend their last year playing for their dad. But Chris, who's also a math teacher at the HS, was also able to assist Michelle at Whitman in recent years, when time allowed. And not for every game, as both teams often play on Fridays. I do know for sure that Chris Ferenz was *very* popular with the Whitman players. And I haven't seen Chris on the Whitman bench once all season. He's clearly as busy as a son-of-a-gun. All I'm saying is that him apparently not being able to at least pop in over at Whitman once or twice a week certainly hasn't helped Michelle any.   

So if we see more of the "same old, same old 14-15 Whit rotations" vs. Willamette, I fully expect JoJo Delong and Peg Swadener to send the Missionaries on the bus back home to WA with another loss - one they absolutely cannot afford to absorb, at this point, if they're still thinking about another NCAA bid. I feel absolutely terrible for Heather Johns. The girl is so talented, so clutch, and so competitive. During the past two seasons, her team's solid play has clearly fueled and inspired her to play at her very best. Well there's been very little of that "spark" to be found so far. At either end of the 14-15 candle. And for those thinking that a Johns-led Whitman team could still "turn on the switch" when it's most needed, and start to play at a much higher level, well it's basically now or never for the 14-15 Missionaries.     

As to Whitman, my 14-15 gut feeling on them has changed. The Corban loss did it for me. I now think we've already seen the Whitman team that we're gonna see all year - much as I'd love to be wrong about that. And that George Fox and Whitworth will be carrying the banner for the NWC late this season. No shame in that. They're both highly skilled, well coached, well deserved teams, who can both go deep in the NCAA tourney. I can't recall a time when I felt that there were *two* NWC teams that have such deep potential runs in them. And I'm thrilled to see that Puget Sound is getting some DIII Top 25 love, and will likely get an NCAA bid. Loree Payne is a sharp cookie, and has put much time and effort into her program in recent years. And they're had more than their share of "being 4th best in a 3-bid NCAA league" of late. The DIII polls have had both of the top NWC teams *far* too low all season. How many more times does an NWC team have to make the DIII FF before the pollsters finally reflect this reality in Nov/Dec? I know it's not evil or anything. The NWC is up in OR and WA. Few know of them, few see them, and fewer still even try to. All I can say is, "streaming video is your friend!" I live in New England, and I honestly feel like the NWC is right outside my doorstep! I just love good DIII WBB. And I can watch my NWC later on, my NESCAC games earlier, and then the "DIII best of the rest", whenever, all from the comfort of my laptop - for free. The distance is no excuse anymore!     

[BruinFan]

In reviewing the non-conference results in attempt to get an idea of how conference play will I go, here are my conclusions.

The top 4 teams will be the familiar names (in alpha order) of George Fox, Puget Sound, Whitman, and Whitworth. The order they will finish is less clear to me. I think that Whitman is the least likely to win the conference regular season of the 4, but I think the other three will all be in the hunt for sure.

I also don't believe there is an obvious bottom team of the other five, but I don't see any of them threatening the four teams listed above. Willamette's improvement will make them competitive, but I'm not ready to declare them the favorite to finish in 5th place. I think that Linfield, Pacific, Lewis and Clark, and Pacific Lutheran can all give Willamette trouble on the Bearcats home court.

To me, the biggest shift in the conference from recent years is that Lewis and Clark will be battling the bottom half of the conference for respectability, rather than vying for a conference crown. The NWC continues to be one of the strongest conferences in the country and the teams that come out at the top of the standings in February will be ready to go to the tournament and continue the good showings of NWC teams in the past.

Here's to the opening weekend and that all teams will be healthy and ready to play.

[d3wbbfan]

Good to see your post, BruinFan! Hope you are well.

But come on, my friend. Can't you go out on a limb, at least a little bit, as to the NWC teams? Of course you're right about the league having a clear Top 4 and a clear bottom 5. That is obvious. But to allege that teams 5 thru 9 remain equally strong today, nearly halfway through the season, when some teams played easy pre-season schedules, and others went more difficult? And that its consequences have had no impact on them, here in January? To me, it sounds like you're trying to just stay neutral, respect everyone, so as not give George Fox's future NWC opponents any possible bulletin board material. Hey, I'm not saying "talk smack" or anything. I also very much respect every NWC team. I'm not looking to hurt anybody, either. But that doesn't mean I won't offer up honest opinions on what I've seen after watching NWC teams play, be it good and bad. And I'm not gonna always be right. But that's what forums like this are for, no?   

That said, the Bruins are your team, BruinFan. And they've been *really* impressive so far. You must be very pleased, optimistic, and harbor high hopes for a long NCAA run, come March. And while I do keep a pretty close eye on all NWC teams myself, you have far more insight on the 14-15 Fox squad than I do (or any other regular NWC poster, for that matter.) What do you think? What do you like most about your team so far? Surprises? Concerns? Who among the other top NWC teams worry you the most? You can't honestly expect us to believe that Bruin partisans have already forgotten that Whitworth was the club that knocked Fox out of the both the league tourney and the NCAAs last year, and that you guys view playing the Bucs and, say Puget Sound, equally? Because I don't believe that. To me, George Fox and Whitworth look to be on a collision course. They will likely play each other 4 times again this season. That's a big part of what makes sports fun to watch - the rematches, and the added dynamic those bring. I very much value your opinion, BruinFan. So would you consider sharing your honest feelings about your team? it's good for the soul, and we all benefit from your "expert" insights!

[d3wbbfan]

All 4 road teams prevailed in Friday's (1/2/15) NWC openers:

-George Fox 68, Linfield 58: The Bruins far more intense, pressing 2014-15 team defense forced 13 1st-half Wildcat TO's, but cold 29% shooting by Fox combined with Linfield hitting 4-5 of their early 3-pt attempts, to knot the halftime score at 29. But GFU warmed up to 48% shooting in the 2nd, while generating 16 additional Linfield turnovers. JR F Justine Benner had 21, SR G Jami Morris had 12, and SR F Lauren Codling had her third double-double of the season for the Bruins (10-0, 1-0 NWC), who also shot a blistering 22-24 at the line in the victory. Three Wildcats posted double figures: SO G Quincey Gibson had 15, JR C Jessica McMillan hit for 12, while RS FR F Amantha Hood chipped in with 11 for Linfield (6-4, 0-1 NWC).

-Whitworth 68, Willamette 48: SR F Jessica Kramer scored a career-high 19 points to lead the Bucs (10-0, 1-0 NWC). 13 minutes in, with the score 16-all, The Pirates ended the opening stanza with a 14-2 run, jumping out front by a dozen at the break. Another 10-2 Whitworth run began the second half, making the score 40-20, and Helen Higgs' team coasted to the win. JR G Lexie Zappone (15 pts) and SR F Katara Belton-Sharp (13 pts) continue to perform, at minimum, at 2nd-team all-NWC levels for Whitworth. Star SR G JoJo DeLong (16 pts) was the lone double-figure scorer for Willamette (5-5, 0-1 NWC).

-Whitman 64. Lewis & Clark 48: SO G Chelsi Brewer came of the bench to score 11 points in just 18 minutes, on 5-6 shooting, during the Missionaries' (6-4, 1-0 NWC) easy win. SR G Heather Johns also added 11 points in the victory. With 12 minutes and change left in the opening half, a layup by SO F Ayisat Afolabi gave the Pios an early 11-7 advantage. But Whitman then reeled off the next 15 points, and ended the half leading 28-18. The first 4 minutes of half #2 saw the Missionaries score the first 12 points, to extend the lead to 40-18. A layup by SO G Alysse Ketner stretched the Whit lead to its largest, 29, at 59-30, with 7:19 left. Coach Michelle Ferenz then cleared her bench, and the L&C regulars were able to cosmetically reduce the deficit down to just 16 by the final horn. Afolabi finished with 22 pts off the bench, on 10-14 shooting, but no other player for the Pioneers (3-7, 0-1 NWC) scored more than seven in defeat.

-Pacific (OR) 56, Pacific Lutheran 51: SR G Nani Ostrom scored a career-high 19 points in the Boxers win. Pacific jumped out to a quick early lead, which got as high as 12, at 28-16, on an Ostrom 3-ball with 3:36 to go in the half. But a late triple by Lute JR G Megan Abdo narrowed the Pacific Lutheran (3-7, 0-1 NWC) halftime deficit to 7, at 30-23. Pacific was able to maintain a narrow second half lead until, at 40-35 Boxers, the Lutes put together an 8-0 run, at 6:17, on two straight PLU hoops by SO G Lacey Nicholson (13 points total), to give her team a short-lived 43-40 lead. But another Ostrom trey immediately got Pacific even again at 43, starting a late, 13-0 Boxer run of their own, and their lead was restored to 10, 53-43, with 3:04 to go. Pacific (5-5, 1-0 NWC) then held on for the 5-point win. SO F Sarah Curl (12) was the only other Boxer in double figures.

[BruinFan]

d3wwbbfan, you give me too much credit regarding my knowledge. I did pretty much give my honest opinion in the previous post.

It sounds very boring, but I don't believe that GFU, WW, UPS, or WM will drop more than a combined total of 4 games to the other 5 schools.  I believe the other 5 schools will beat each other up such as Pacific winning at PLU last night and that the last place team will find a way to go no worse than 4-12 while going 0-8 against the top 4. I think that Linfield is solid and the most likely to finish in 5th and I would not be surprised to see Lewis and Clark tumble to last place.

The fan base at George Fox is still getting used to the new normal without Lewis and Clark. You know how rivalries continue even during the years when the game is not competitive? That is the case between GFU and LC. There was a run of 3-4 years where the games were so bitterly contested that beating LC is still the most satisfying feeling for the GF faithful. That will eventually fade with a new coaching staff and program at LC. The rivalry used to be PLU when they had a fantastic coach, Gil Rigell, in the late 90's and into this century. It then transitioned to UPS under their then head coach, Suzy Barcomb. Helen Higgs is the Dean of the NWC coaches and she seems like an old friend. I respect her and know her team is a threat, but I'm not too worked up about it. Some do not care for her bench style, but I think that is only because she is tall and loud - so easily seen and heard. What she says to players and officials is typical coach speak.
Whitman is a question mark to me and I expect they will get better as the conference season goes along.

The toughest games of the year will be the Whitworth/Whitman trip and that isn't new. It has always been a goal to get a split on that road trip. The sense of the challenge of defending the home court against those two teams is not any greater either than it has been over many years as well. I know you are looking for some big scoop, but it really is just another year in the NWC.

The UPS game makes me nervous tonight. The main advantage for the Bruins is having played last night, but I think UPS is ready to compete for the conference crown this year.

As to the Bruins roster, Codling amazes me. Her rebounding prowess is disproportional to her size. She is just such a competitor and has a way of getting to the basketball. It is a good thing, because the team lacks a dominant person with height. The player that would have filled that role last season and this one finally had to retire because of concussions. Fortunately, the team has more speed than in the past. They bring some great intensity off the bench. I am very happy for Nalaui as she has worked hard for the opportunity to play and is making the most of it with her aggressive play. Kimberly Frost is lightning fast and is fun to watch her zip around the court. Blizzard is a steady, calm hand at the point. Benner is strong on the dribble to the basket, but does have weaknesses that good coaches will look to exploit. Morris sometimes disappears in a game and then all of sudden will hit a pair of three's to ignite the team. Heckendorf is a positive solid senior leader willing to take a second team role that gives them a spark.

Let's see ... concerns?  Free throw shooting is not consistent. How will they do against a team that handles their pressure and doesn't turn the ball over leading to easy baskets?

d3wbbfan, Saturday conference games start at 7 PM EST this year.

[d3wbbfan]

Thanks for your very thoughtful reply, BruinFan. It was perfect. And I can especially appreciate the fact that your team has played at a very high level for a very long time, and that interest in your long-standing hoop rivalries with the Loggers and LC (who've bucked the nationwide "incorporate silver" trend by chucking theirs, and are sporting new white home unis this year. Weird look. The Pios look like Syracuse now, teamed with their orange kicks!) I love tradition, so I'm pleased high interest in those games continue among the GF alums/fan base. These schools are also much closer to you geographically. I do understand the that the two Whit schools are a 4 to 7 hour bus trek away (realizing some NWC teams opt to fly there) from the other 7 member schools, at the very eastern end of the NWC. It's unlikely that Fox ever played either of the Whits with any regularity until the mid-to-late 1990's (after the Bruins' transition from the NAIA and the birth of the NCAA DIII NWC, although I know Whitman was also an NAIA school, until they also switched to NCAA affiliation around then.) Surely when you've been playing certain schools for 75 years +, memories/emotions of past epic battles run deep.

And no, I wasn't looking for "big scoop" from you. Not at all. You're right - it is "just another season." All I was hoping for was your typical New Years' take on your team. Man, you're 100% right about Codling. She is just *so* darn thin. But she somehow manages to use this to her advantage. She must have steel girders for bones - she is so strong. She cannot be displaced, has great hands, is nimble, has superb touch and footwork, can jump like a kangaroo, and possesses consistently excellent timing, as to rebounds/blocked shots. As far as who had to retire with concussions, you mean Megan Hays, right? Such a shame. I know what you mean about Morris (she did pick up 3 walking violations vs Puget Sound Sat., while un-pressured out on the perimeter, which did throw her off a bit.) But I've seen just about every 14-15 Bruin game so far (expect for the Hawaii trip-no streaming), and I've seen far fewer of those for Jami than I recall during her SO/JR years. We all know she can hit 3's. But she's also driving the lane effectively now. Was that always part of her arsenal on O? I love Blizzard and I *really* love Heckendorf. Coming off the bench, she knows/can instruct the other 4 pups she's in with exactly where they are supposed to be every single second. And she can play any of the 5 spots well. Dacia is worth her weight in gold!!!!!!! You're also 100% right about Benner, but unfortunately, the other top NWC teams already *do* know how to not allow Justine to get into her offensive comfort zone. And it's a shame that she didn't appear to work on diversifying her post-move arsenal at all over the summer. I think she's still a 3-spot player in her heart, but is playing 4/5 100% to help out Coach and her team. Do you know what happened to Kennedy Hobert the past few games? She's been DNP. I loved what I saw from her early - she's gotta be hurt.

BruinFan, there are only two 2014-15 DIII women's teams I've seen that can legitimately go 12 deep, with minimal skill drop-off. Amherst (MA) and George Fox. Now that doesn't mean either of you guys will win it all, as that can bring with it other complications, like where do you find the minutes for everyone, and how you do keep kids in long enough to "get into the game flow". But I'd still wanna be either one of you guys, because your two teams can best weather the injuries/foul trouble that are always just a heartbeat away, over the course of a season. That's a *huge* insurance policy for you. For instance, the now-SR laden, 13-14 FF team Tufts (MA) may have just lost their 40-mpg, 4-yr starter at PG (Kelsey Morehead) for the year, to injury. Sat., their coach plugged in a FY for 35+ min, and had to hope for the best. (She did OK, but will she handle the Bruin press? I truly doubt it.) 98% of top DIII teams can't expect to overcome a core player injury, and still expect to survive/advance come March. But, heaven forbid you lost Blizzard (or any starter), you've got two/three different player options per spot, and your results honestly wouldn't suffer all that much.