WBB: Northwest Conference

[80sshorts]

Kristen Sheilee was replaced by Munger who is much better than Sheilee

I believe with that sacrilegious statement, this discussion has just jumped the shark.

[Handles]

Huh?

[BruinFan]

Coach of the Year is subjective, which is why it usually goes to the coach of the championship team. It is difficult to fairly evaluate each individual coaches circumstances as he or she works to maximize the talent that they put on the floor.

Both UPS and GFU have 3 starters returning from last year.
UPS lost a 2nd team all-conference player (Chase).
GFU lost the POY (Shielee) AND a 1st team all-conference player (Indendi).
UPS replaced the lost starters with 2 freshmen.
GFU replaced the lost starters with a freshmen and a senior.

Everyone wants to beat both teams, but George Fox all the more as defending champs. I  won't lose any sleep over which coach gets the award, but I don't agree that the Bruins are nearly the same team as last year. Congratulations to both teams on all they have accomplished so far this season.

Now, about this final week of conference play.
Lewis and Clark is the only team in the top 4 in obvious peril of losing both games. Even if they do, I think they still earn the 3rd spot in a tiebreaker with Whitworth.

Whitman is playing well right now, so I'm intrigued with the possibility of Whitman winning out and Whitworth losing on the road at Linfield. I haven't looked at the tiebreak if they both finish 8-8.

No Handles, I do not think UPS will lose either game this weekend.
Enjoy the games.

[northernstar]

Lewis & Clark would control thier own destiny by winning one of the last two games.   But if they don't, and Whitworth beats Linfield, I am not familiar with the tiebreaker.  The NWC site shows the following tiebreakers:

1) Head to Head Competition (Which would be identical)
2) Results against Confercence Teams in descending rank order (This would seem to favor Whitworth, as past George Fox and Puget Sound, the next team behind Lewis & Clark and Whitworth would be Whitman, then Pacific Lutheran.  With Lewis & Clark losing one other game to Whitman, and Whitworth losing one other game to Pacific Lutheran, that would seem to give the tiebreaker to Whitworth.  Or did I misread that?

[Handles]

I think you make great points BruinFan!!  COY is very subjective but as I've a done a little research....it seems strange to me that Coach Barcomb has never once been voted COY by the NWC??  I can't believe the NWC has never believed her to have earned a COY?  What I do notice is that basically which ever team wins the conference they also seem to get COY and POY......  In 06-07 UPS and Fox shared the title, all went to Fox.  In 03-04 UPS and Whitman shared the title, COY went to Michelle and POY went to the 4th place team.  You have to go back to 01-02 when Helen received COY at Whitworth and POY was granted to Whitworth as well....They took 2nd in conference that year.  This all makes me think there is not a lot of thought that truly goes into these two awards, rather just the conference winning team earns both!  At least 5-7 other times this is what happened.  Barcomb has over 200 wins in her career and always seems to have her teams battling Fox in the end.  No respect has ever been given.....strange.....My vote is still Barcomb COY and Ely POY in 09-10!!!!!!!

Northernstar.....I believe you are correct on the tiebreaker.

[BruinFan]

Yes, Northernstar I believe you are correct. I get confused sometimes on descending versus ascending order. If Whitworth and Lewis and Clark tie, then the Pirates get the #3 seed as long as Whitman finishes ahead of PLU.  This would mean the semi's have Lewis and Clark at George Fox and Whitworth at Puget Sound.

Handles, I checked your facts and I am a bit surprised as well that Coach Barcomb has never received the honor as conference Coach of the Year. It is a human process and people vote however they want and the result has just not gone her way. If the past is any indication, that will not change this year. If I were a voting coach, ONLY if I truly could not decide between two coaches would I break the tie based on who had not yet received the honor.

High achieving teams usually have one or more high achieving players. I'm not surprised that the conference champion usually has the Player of the Year. I do think this year that Ely has a good chance at the award and I think she has earned it.

[northernstar]

I happened to have set up on my computer both the Live Stats and Video from the George Fox/Lewis & Clark Game last night.  What I saw greatly bewildered me.  Who keeps the Live Stats, which ultimately become the official game stats.  Is it an official from the home gymnasium, or a league official?  The number of errors were unbelievable.  As one example, on at least three different occasions, I saw a potential rebound get knocked out of bounds without any possession, and a rebound was awarded.  In these situations, not a single pair of hands ever grasped the ball, it was simply knocked off of attempting hands out of bounds, and no foul was called.  Wrong players were credited with events that didn't match the video.  Can anyone tell me who handles, and how live stats are tracked? 

[Pat Coleman]

Stats are kept by the home institution, primarily the sports information office.

[BruinFan]

It is not unusual for editing to take place within the stats program after the game to correct any known errors that can't be corrected within the flow of the game.

As to crediting rebounds, I am fairly sure that with every missed shot a rebound must be credited to either an individual or the team.

Before live stats, fans may have thought stats were rock solid. Assists is a good example of a judgment call. How much does the person who scored do with the ball before you no longer credit the person who passed it to her with an assist?  Steals and turnovers are other categories where a quick decision is made that not everyone in the gym may agree with.

Stats are generally done by volunteers that care about their work. There may be some subjectivity to it and even a few errors, but this is nothing new to players and coaches.

Congrats to the Bruins on moving to 15-0 in conference. The program has now won 34 straight conference games. It was fun to see the seniors honored before the game.

[northernstar]

I also would like to congratulate George Fox on outright winning the conference.  It is a tribute to a very strong ballclub.

In reference to your point that a rebound has to be attributed to every attempted shot, I am not sure I am in agreement with that.  If no player posesses the ball after an attempt, I am not sure how, and to who you would award a rebound.  I looked on the play-by-play of the game this morning, and everything that I thought was incorrectly assigned last night is identical.  I understand that these are volunteers, and it is very easy to sit back and be critical of mistakes.  My intentions were simply to understand how the official stats are processed.  My only thought that if not as reasonably accurate as possible, that this is not fair to the kids that they make mistakes on. If a basket is awarded to the wrong player, or a missed field goal is awarded to the wrong player, a lot of coaches rely on stats to tell them the picture.

If I were a coach, I would want to be looking at something as accurate as possible!

[Pat Coleman]

In reference to your point that a rebound has to be attributed to every attempted shot, I am not sure I am in agreement with that.  If no player posesses the ball after an attempt, I am not sure how, and to who you would award a rebound.

Those are team rebounds, as BruinFan suggests below.

As to crediting rebounds, I am fairly sure that with every missed shot a rebound must be credited to either an individual or the team.

[northernstar]

No, in the examples I gave you from the first posting, no player possessed the ball before it was pushed out of bounds.  There cannot be a team rebound in that scenario, unless one team or the other actually gets the ball before going out of bounds.  In this scenario, there should not even be a team rebound awarded, let alone a specific player being awarded a rebound.  A rebound signals player/team control.  You can get a rebound and have it knocked out of your posession by a defender out of bounds, but that wasn't the case from last night.  It went out of bounds with neither side gaining posession, and a specific player was awarded a rebound.   On several occasions as a matter of fact.

[BruinFan]

There cannot be a team rebound in that scenario, unless one team or the other actually gets the ball before going out of bounds.  In this scenario, there should not even be a team rebound awarded, let alone a specific player being awarded a rebound.

NCAA Basketball Statisticians manual does give examples of team rebounds being awarded when a player does not have control (as best I can tell). I don't think you are contesting this point, but it does confirm that the total number individual rebounds+team rebounds+deadball rebounds = missed FG + missed FT
www.ncaa.org/wps/portal/ncaahome?WCM_GLOBAL_CONTEXT=/ncaa/ncaa/sports+and+championship/general+information/stats/m+basketball/statsmanuals.html[quote

My only thought that if not as reasonably accurate as possible, that this is not fair to the kids that they make mistakes on. If a basket is awarded to the wrong player, or a missed field goal is awarded to the wrong player, a lot of coaches rely on stats to tell them the picture.

If I were a coach, I would want to be looking at something as accurate as possible!

I do believe that an effort is made for the stats to be reasonably accurate. I am sure there are times when the box score is unintentionally unfair. I think it would be extremely rare for a scoring mistake to not be corrected after the fact, assuming someone points it out. Some mistakes are as simple as not being able to see the players number that was involved in the incident because of the crowd around the ball. I would love it if the stats were accurate beyond any doubt, but I don't think players and coaches are surprised when they find an inaccuracy.

This is what I know of the stat process at George Fox (and I don't know all of it). One person calls out the codes to be typed into the computer, while another person enters the call on the computer. At George Fox, the "caller" is a man who has seen more than 1,000 men's games in person and has done the home stats for both the men and women for years. That doesn't mean he is perfect,  but he does have a lot of experience. The data entry person is typically a college student who does this as a work study job. Coaches are anxious for box scores immediately after the games, so I don't know when any editing would take place.

I think at some schools, the stats are kept by an all student crew.

[BruinFan]

Back to more of the fun topics.

I think that if the NWC play-off final is between UPS and George Fox that it is a  lock to get 2 teams into the NCAA tournament.

Anyone disagree?

And then we can wait to see if this is the year where the Bruins and Loggers don't have to play each other the first weekend of the tournament.

I think Whitworth wins tonight and Lewis and Clark loses.

This means next Thursday we will see Lewis and Clark @ George Fox and Whitworth @ UPS.
I'm looking forward to the play-offs!

[northernstar]

Bruinfan

Thanks for the clarification.  I read what you linked to, and you are correct about it being a team rebound.  But it does still appear to have been erroneously awarded to an individual player.  And I will point out, it was the same player in all three instances that I noticed.  That in itself made it look very odd.

I apologize, as I didn't intend for this thing to get into that serious of a discussion.

As you said, on to more fun topics!