Bumblin' B's

[Pat Coleman]

  Here's a Pool B question from a different angle:
     Why's the Landmark placed in Pool B in the 1st place? Al least half of the schools have been in D3 from the beginning of D3? What's the NCAA trying to achieve/avoid with this policy?

New conferences are not given a Pool A bid for two years. NECC is in that situation this year and next (Elms) and the Landmark will get a Pool A bid next season (along with the UMAC???). The idea is to keep things stable. If the Landmark had formed and after a year several schools left and others entered, the NCAA would have foolishly given a conference an automatic bid when that conference probably didn't deserve it.

Dmac,
  Deserving is in the eye of the beholder. I argue that with all their D3 history, these schools are at least as worthy as any others that have an AQ. They have a lot more stability than the MAC Freedom and Commonwealth over the same years.

In hindsight, they do. But automatic bids aren't handed out in hindsight. And it's not like the Landmark has all eight of its original members, right? The school you follow wasn't even in the conference when it was first announced.

Plus, if the NCAA started waiving its rules there would be a lot more conference asking for the same.

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

Plus the fact... all of these teams left their own conferences creating the chaos in the MACF and MACC and others... so you can't automatically say it was going to be stable! And it proved it wasn't in a weird 24 hour period (Stevens!).

[Westwhisperer]

The Chapman men's program has been on the short end of the selection due to their scheduling. As evidence of this, the women's program has made multiple trips to play at Colorado College during the past decade. The men's team, despite being invited each year, would not make that trip. They did however make several trips to Hawaii to play non D-3 games so hard to believe it was a budget issue.

Additionally, they could never seem to make it to the Cactus Jam in Phoenix but found a way to get to Phoenix to play Non D3 Southwestern several times.

If the assistant coach had worked as hard at scheduling and/or fundraising as he has at complaining about the selection system over the years it is highly likely that they would have been in the tournament several times.

The real disappointment should be for the quality players who were never given the right opportunity to make the tournament as they have had good teams and players during this decade.

[Gregory Sager]

Well stated, Westwhisperer.

[Ralph Turner]

  Here's a Pool B question from a different angle:
     Why's the Landmark placed in Pool B in the 1st place? Al least half of the schools have been in D3 from the beginning of D3? What's the NCAA trying to achieve/avoid with this policy?

New conferences are not given a Pool A bid for two years. NECC is in that situation this year and next (Elms) and the Landmark will get a Pool A bid next season (along with the UMAC???). The idea is to keep things stable. If the Landmark had formed and after a year several schools left and others entered, the NCAA would have foolishly given a conference an automatic bid when that conference probably didn't deserve it.

Dmac,
  Deserving is in the eye of the beholder. I argue that with all their D3 history, these schools are at least as worthy as any others that have an AQ. They have a lot more stability than the MAC Freedom and Commonwealth over the same years.

I agree with Pat and Dave about the Landmark.

I remind us that these schools were dissatisfied with their previous peers.

They tore apart conferences with long histories.  The creation of the Landmark Conference disrupted the integrity and composition of the Capital AC, the Commonwealth, the Freedom, the Pennsylvania/Colonial States, the North Eastern AC, the AMCC, the Skyline and the NAC, otherwise known as the mid-Atlantic shuffle.

They decided to align themselves into a new, exclusive conference that ostensibly has a mission and vision that is different to their previous conference homes.

This is a new creation.

The membership of Division III has determined an equitable and logical process by which new conferences may come into being, with full privileges of membership.

That is what the Landmark Conference is doing right now.  When the Landmark Conference is granted full membership status, we can greet them.

[Pat Coleman]

If the assistant coach had worked as hard at scheduling and/or fundraising as he has at complaining about the selection system over the years it is highly likely that they would have been in the tournament several times.

There certainly has been a lot of complaining, but does the assistant coach (who isn't there anymore anyway) usually have that power over the schedule?

[oldchap]

If the assistant coach had worked as hard at scheduling and/or fundraising as he has at complaining about the selection system over the years it is highly likely that they would have been in the tournament several times.

Who is generally in charge of scheduling at the school? Wouldn't it be the coach who manages the men's basketball budget and ultimately decide which tournaments to attend and which teams to play? Do the coach and the assistants understand the importance of scheduling better teams in order to make it into the tournament? Perhaps the coach's goal is to pad his win/loss ratio or make the school look good from an outsider's point of view by just having a great win/loss ratio, and neither the school nor the coach really care to make it to the tournament? Another possibility is that the coach is torn between having a great looking win/loss ratio and a good OWP and errs on the side of caution by scheduling teams that are too easy.

These are pure speculations on my part, but the situation does beg these questions. If you read their end of season press release, it sounds more like whining and feeling snubbed than really understanding what the real issues are. Here is an excerpt of that article, it comes from the Chapman website:

WINS RECORD AND DIII INDEPENDENTS CROWN, BUT NO STILL NO NCAAS

ORANGE, Calif. – The Chapman University men's basketball team swept through the Division III Independents West Region Postseason Tournament for its fourth consecutive championship, concluding the regular season on a 10-game winning streak and setting a new school (Division III) record for wins this weekend. Yet when all was said and done, the Panthers are still left on the outside looking in at the NCAA Division III "dance".

Chapman (24-3) did not receive a berth in this year's 60-team NCAA postseason bracket, despite winning more games this season than any Panther team since 1959-60. The Panthers have won 20 or more games in four consecutive seasons, but have yet to earn the elusive at-large berth for Division III independent schools.

The Panthers were even among the top-35 teams in the country to receive votes for the D3Hoops.com national poll and lead all of Division III in defense, allowing opponents just 56.4 points per game.

With 17 years of experience and a great record, you would think Coach Bokoski (who by the way, I think is an outstanding coach) knows better...

[Mr. Ypsi]

If the assistant coach had worked as hard at scheduling and/or fundraising as he has at complaining about the selection system over the years it is highly likely that they would have been in the tournament several times.

Who is generally in charge of scheduling at the school? Wouldn't it be the coach who manages the men's basketball budget and ultimately decide which tournaments to attend and which teams to play? Do the coach and the assistants understand the importance of scheduling better teams in order to make it into the tournament? Perhaps the coach's goal is to pad his win/loss ratio or make the school look good from an outsider's point of view by just having a great win/loss ratio, and neither the school nor the coach really care to make it to the tournament? Another possibility is that the coach is torn between having a great looking win/loss ratio and a good OWP and errs on the side of caution by scheduling teams that are too easy.

These are pure speculations on my part, but the situation does beg these questions. If you read their end of season press release, it sounds more like whining and feeling snubbed than really understanding what the real issues are. Here is an excerpt of that article, it comes from the Chapman website:

WINS RECORD AND DIII INDEPENDENTS CROWN, BUT NO STILL NO NCAAS

ORANGE, Calif. – The Chapman University men's basketball team swept through the Division III Independents West Region Postseason Tournament for its fourth consecutive championship, concluding the regular season on a 10-game winning streak and setting a new school (Division III) record for wins this weekend. Yet when all was said and done, the Panthers are still left on the outside looking in at the NCAA Division III "dance".

Chapman (24-3) did not receive a berth in this year's 60-team NCAA postseason bracket, despite winning more games this season than any Panther team since 1959-60. The Panthers have won 20 or more games in four consecutive seasons, but have yet to earn the elusive at-large berth for Division III independent schools.

The Panthers were even among the top-35 teams in the country to receive votes for the D3Hoops.com national poll and lead all of Division III in defense, allowing opponents just 56.4 points per game.

With 17 years of experience and a great record, you would think Coach Bokoski (who by the way, I think is an outstanding coach) knows better...

That DOES indeed sound like a 'head-in-the-sand' whine.  U-Dallas once made it in to Pool B with a 13-12 record.  Pool B is NOT some conspiracy against independents.  Most years it is EASIER than for teams in high-level conferences.  (Actually, make that ALL years - I don't think there has ever been a Pool B team left out who would have even 'sniffed' a Pool C bid.)

Since the SCIAC is apparently never going to admit you (I have no knowledge as to why), your only recourse is to upgrade the schedule.  When even 24-3 can't get it done (rightly, IMO), there is obviously a scheduling problem.  Good suggestions have been offered - either pressure the 'powers to be' to adopt them, or stop complaining.  The problem is not with 'the system'; the problem is with Chapman schedule-makers.

[oldchap]

Since the SCIAC is apparently never going to admit you (I have no knowledge as to why),

I may be wrong, but from what I can make of what I've been told, the members of SCIAC say that Chapman is too big (roughly double  or more the enrollment of most schools in the SCIAC). In addition, Chapman keeps growing, while the SCIAC schools are pretty stable. That may make the SCIAC members feel that they would bring in a school that is going to be "too" competitive and take away chances at playoff berths.

When even 24-3 can't get it done (rightly, IMO), there is obviously a scheduling problem.  Good suggestions have been offered - either pressure the 'powers to be' to adopt them, or stop complaining.  The problem is not with 'the system'; the problem is with Chapman schedule-makers.

I understand and I agree, now that I fully understand how the process works. Although, as a parent, it's certainly not my prerogative to pressure the "powers to be". I would think the assistant coaches read the forums, though...

[Ralph Turner]

Oldchap, thanks for the Chapman press release!

+1!

[Westwhisperer]

Agreed that the assistant coach who was the genesis of annual "Chapman Whine" is no longer with the program. No confusion towards current assistants intended.

In some ways the pool B route can be easier than an AQ, especially if you are trying to get the AQ in a tough conference. The pool B route in the West region however, is perhaps the toughest of all due to the overall strength of the region (not many weak conferences or bad teams) and geography.

Having coached the last pool B entrant from the West I can tell you that it takes a good players, a well thought out schedule, consistent performance in the "big" games and perhaps even a little luck. Chapman has managed 2 or 3 of those variables in most years.

I believe they have been a better team than some of the pool B selections in recent years but my subjective appraisal (nor anyone else's) will ever be used to make the selection. The criteria is readily available and pretty straightforward.

Our scheduling strategy was to play teams from the lesser conferences (which in the West Region are still pretty strong) who would finish in the middle third of the conference, ideally on a neutral court (counted as an away game). Losing to the 6th place team in the Wisconsin league at home does the most damage. Beating the 3rd place SCIAC team on a neutral floor is much better.

Chapman has a huge advantage relative to the other West Region independents in that they have the majority of the scheduling recipe in their geographic backyard.

[Ralph Turner]

However, the Pool B's are actually a single national conference! 

[Ralph Turner]

First Round Tourney matchups

POOL A v POOL B
Elms (B) vs. SUNYIT (A)

POOL C v POOL B
Maryville (Tenn) (B) at Trinity (Texas) (C)
Brandeis (C) vs. Scranton (B)

Thanks to Old school for the list.

[Gregory Sager]

Chapman has a huge advantage relative to the other West Region independents in that they have the majority of the scheduling recipe in their geographic backyard.

Exactly. Not only does Chapman have a full D3 league in its neighborhood, unlike Colorado College and Nebraska Wesleyan, it also has year-round sunshine. Opposing coaches aren't excited about traveling to Colorado Springs or Lincoln, for the most part, but they are interested in scheduling snowbird trips to sunny SoCal. Chapman's got warm weather from November thru February, and that's a lure that the coach of the Panthers should be using to his advantage.

[oldchap]

In some ways the pool B route can be easier than an AQ, especially if you are trying to get the AQ in a tough conference. The pool B route in the West region however, is perhaps the toughest of all due to the overall strength of the region (not many weak conferences or bad teams) and geography.

Now that I understand the process better, I can see that sometimes getting in as a Pool B can be easier than a team which is part of a really tough Conference. I equate the D3 playoffs to the soccer World Cup in some ways. Essentially, the NCAA isn't trying to get the absolute best teams to the tournament. It tries to balance participation and competition. In fact, if you belong to one of the 39 Conferences which get an AQ, and you happen to be in a weak Conference, all you need to do is to win the title to get into the tournament. You may not go past the first or second round, but at least you will have had the pride and honor to be part of the competition.

I believe they have been a better team than some of the pool B selections in recent years but my subjective appraisal (nor anyone else's) will ever be used to make the selection. The criteria is readily available and pretty straightforward.

You are absolutely right, although, as you said, this is a subjective call. What has been a frustrating experience for me over the last few weeks is to see what I believe to be a team which could potentially make a run in the playoffs, but doesn't get the chance that other teams, of equal or lesser strength, will have.

To pick up on my last metaphore, teams like Togo or Trinidad and Tobago made it to the 2006 World Cup, while secondary Europeans powers such as Romania or Greece (which won the European championship in 2004) didn't, despite the fact that they are clearly better teams. The process by which these teams were picked is clearly defined and everyone knows what the rules are. In many ways, the same holds true with the D3 selection process. It is what it is and the rules are known well in advance. The Chapman coaching staff should do their best to "manipulate" the system to their advantage so that they have more chances to get into the tournament.

Our scheduling strategy was to play teams from the lesser conferences (which in the West Region are still pretty strong) who would finish in the middle third of the conference, ideally on a neutral court (counted as an away game). Losing to the 6th place team in the Wisconsin league at home does the most damage. Beating the 3rd place SCIAC team on a neutral floor is much better.

I have been told on this board that home versus away versus neutral didn't count. In what way do you think it has an influence?

Chapman has a huge advantage relative to the other West Region independents in that they have the majority of the scheduling recipe in their geographic backyard.

Having the SCIAC in our backyard is good but only up to some point. The SCIAC teams don't want to play non conference games once conference play has started. So, Chapman is in this predicament where they could schedule more games in November and December, but then their schedule would get pretty thin during Conference play. This would be hard on the players because the ratio practice/game would be demotivating, I think. That's why they fill their schedule with non D3 schools such as West Coast Baptist. It pads their win/loss record and makes everybody feel good, but does nothing for the playoffs.