Bumblin' B's

[Ralph Turner]

I do not want to pile on here about Chapman's scheduling issues but I do wonder why they get so much love in the national rankings.

"Float-up".  Everyone above them has gotten beat so they gradually fill the spot that is 1 or 2 ahead of them.  They haven't lost, but no one else seems to be holding onto the slot in the rankings.

[oldchap]

Speaking of scheduling difficulties, last night Chapman got its second win in a week over 2-18 Southwestern College, a lousy NCCAA-II team. Another feather in Chapman's cap! No doubt the D3hoops Top 25 voters will move Chapman farther up in the rankings for those sterling wins. Coming up on Feb. 6: Chapman's third game in a month against 4-16 La Sierra. Too bad the D-III Independents Postseason Tournament was canceled this year, or Chapman would have played La Sierra a fourth time.

OxyBob

It hurts, OxyBob, doesn't it?! I feel for you.... not!!!   

Well, this year Chapman convincingly beat everyone they were supposed to beat and lost only one D3 game that could have gone either way, against an opponent which is currently the favorite at winning an AQ. As icing on the cake, they even had a nice win on the road against a DII team that was ranked at the time. Irrelevant you might say, sure I'll give you this, but nevertheless I'd call that a "feather in Chapman's cap".   

[Mr. Ypsi]

OB,

I'm sure the Chapman posters can do just fine without my support, but I have to ask again - who the hell do you EXPECT Chapman to play when the SCIAC is in session?

[Gregory Sager]

Justin Riley, forward for No. 13 Chapman, has been blogging for D3hoops.com throughout the Panthers' season.  His latest post covers this very subject - scheduling difficulties.

Speaking of scheduling difficulties, last night Chapman got its second win in a week over 2-18 Southwestern College, a lousy NCCAA-II team.

While it's technically accurate to refer to Southwestern (AZ) as an NCCAA school, it's more accurate to refer to it as an NAIA-2 school. Southwestern is a dual affiliate, but the NAIA-2 affiliation takes precedence, as that's the organization for whose postseason tournament Southwestern has declared. NCCAA rules are written in such a way as to allow any dual-affiliate member that declares for the other organization's postseason tourney (be it NCAA, NAIA, or USCAA) but which doesn't qualify for it to participate in the NCCAA tourney. In a sense it's a consolation-prize tourney, a la the ECAC's, although the NCCAA folks certainly don't think of it that way.

The NAIA-2 is clearly a step above the NCCAA as well, although Southwestern definitely isn't impressing anyone on that level in 2009-10. The only NAIA team that the Eagles have beaten this year is Walla Walla (the other Eagles win came over D3 LaSierra). In the D3 vs. D1/D2/NAIA/NCCAA room, games played against the Eagles are logged as games played against an NAIA-2 squad.

[David Collinge]

I didn't even know that the NCCAA had multiple divisions.  Are those in NCCAA-II the Children of a Lesser God?

[Gregory Sager]

In both NCCAA tourneys the teams that get eliminated in the opening round get bigger trophies than the teams that win their respective tournaments. "For the last will be first, and the first will be last." (Matthew 20:16)

[OxyBob]

While it's technically accurate to refer to Southwestern (AZ) as an NCCAA school, it's more accurate to refer to it as an NAIA-2 school.

The Massey Ratings list Southwestern as an NCCAA-II school. That's where I got it. I'm sure that Ken Massey would be very interested in your abstruse, hairsplitting analysis. You can forward it to him at kmassey@masseyratings.com.

Speaking of scheduling difficulties, last night Chapman got its second win in a week over 2-18 Southwestern College, a lousy NCCAA-II team. Another feather in Chapman's cap!

As icing on the cake, they even had a nice win on the road against a DII team that was ranked at the time. Irrelevant you might say, sure I'll give you this, but nevertheless I'd call that a "feather in Chapman's cap".

I was actually a little stingy. Chapman beat 2-18 Southwestern twice within a week, so Chapman deserves two feathers for that.

Are those in NCCAA-II the Children of a Lesser God?

[inside joke]"Improving your life through better hearing is Columbia Hearing Centers mission and our personal commitment to you."[/inside joke]

OxyBob

[AO]

Justin Riley, forward for No. 13 Chapman, has been blogging for D3hoops.com throughout the Panthers' season.  His latest post covers this very subject - scheduling difficulties.

Speaking of scheduling difficulties, last night Chapman got its second win in a week over 2-18 Southwestern College, a lousy NCCAA-II team.

While it's technically accurate to refer to Southwestern (AZ) as an NCCAA school, it's more accurate to refer to it as an NAIA-2 school. Southwestern is a dual affiliate, but the NAIA-2 affiliation takes precedence, as that's the organization for whose postseason tournament Southwestern has declared. NCCAA rules are written in such a way as to allow any dual-affiliate member that declares for the other organization's postseason tourney (be it NCAA, NAIA, or USCAA) but which doesn't qualify for it to participate in the NCCAA tourney. In a sense it's a consolation-prize tourney, a la the ECAC's, although the NCCAA folks certainly don't think of it that way.

The NAIA-2 is clearly a step above the NCCAA as well, although Southwestern definitely isn't impressing anyone on that level in 2009-10. The only NAIA team that the Eagles have beaten this year is Walla Walla (the other Eagles win came over D3 LaSierra). In the D3 vs. D1/D2/NAIA/NCCAA room, games played against the Eagles are logged as games played against an NAIA-2 squad.

Having played in an NCCAA national tournament (d-1), maybe I can shed some light on the issue.  Though I know rather little about nccaa d-2 I believe there aren't any NAIA schools in d-2.  NCCAA d-1 teams are probably 2/3rds naia -2, with the rest being ncaa-2 and naia-1, with a couple d3 squads thrown in there (Northwestern, Greenville and Geneva).  Gardner-Webb of NCAA divison 1 played in the NCCAA up until maybe 5 years ago.  Non-scholarship nccaa teams can pick between the two divisions (Crown,  North Central  and some pennsylannia teams from d-3 play in nccaa-2).   

The Southwestern that Chapman played is playing in its first year in NAIA-2 and NCCAA-1, and they are definitely struggling, they're 44th out of 46 in the nccaa standings.   Interestingly enough, if Chapman had scheduled the southwestern (Oklahoma) that plays in nccaa d-2, they might have got a better game as that squad soundly beat ncaa-2 East Central University.  Or if they scheduled Grace Bible College in Grand Rapids which beat Calvin earlier in the year (when I first looked at that score I assumed it was Grace out of Indiana which plays naia and nccaa-1, but no it was calvin's cross town rival out of the nccaa2)

The NCCAA d-1 tournament does feel like a consolation tournament for many of the teams as they were hoping for naia or ncaa2 berths.  When I played at Northwestern we were a little more excited to be playing as this was the only post-season we were eligible for (this is the first year Northwestern can play in the ncaa playoffs-aq next year).  The d-1 tournament is a step up compared to the schedule that some naia schools play as it is the best of the schools that don't make it to the naia tournament.  You can't really say that the NAIA overall is a step up from the NCCAA as the NCCAA is made up of the NAIA.  For schools like mine who play in ncaa-3 and nccaa-1, the nccaa tournament is more challenging than regular season d-3 play, and most years the champion from the nccaa would beat the d-3 champion.  The NCCAA d-2 tournament is the highest goal for a majority of the squads that play in that division (though not the toughest games for schools like Grace of Grand Rapids who are scheduling anybody during the regular season). 

So to sum up, just because you play against a school that plays in the NCCAA doesn't mean it's going to be a cakewalk.  Chapman doesn't have many options here and shouldn't be criticized for scheduling Southwestern.

[Pat Coleman]

They shouldn't, but OB has a bug up his you-know-where about it and has taken this issue to the ax-grinding level.

This is an official warning to OB -- enough. Move on.

[sac]

Grace Bible is the defending National Champion in NCCAA-II and are currently ranked #1.  Over the past two seasons they own victories over 2 NCAA D3 programs and D2 Ferris State.  Their only losses this year are to ranked NAIA II programs, D3 or D2 programs.

They can play.

[oldchap]

They shouldn't, but OB has a bug up his you-know-where about it and has taken this issue to the ax-grinding level.

This is an official warning to OB -- enough. Move on.

Geez! These forums can be strict... OxyBob and I were just getting warmed up...     

[sac]

Forgot to add about NCCAA............NCCAA I is mostly the schools who have dual membership in either NAIA or NCAA (far more NAIA).........NCCAAII is almost entirely Bible colleges.

[Gregory Sager]

While it's technically accurate to refer to Southwestern (AZ) as an NCCAA school, it's more accurate to refer to it as an NAIA-2 school.

The Massey Ratings list Southwestern as an NCCAA-II school. That's where I got it. I'm sure that Ken Massey would be very interested in your abstruse, hairsplitting analysis. You can forward it to him at kmassey@masseyratings.com.

It's got nothing to do with my analysis and everything to do with your endless and tiresome crusade to run down Chapman at every opportunity. I don't care enough to e-mail Ken Massey about it, but he's clearly wrong about Southwestern's affiliation; the Eagles should be listed as an NAIA-2 team, because they have declared for the NAIA-2 postseason tourney.

Having played in an NCCAA national tournament (d-1), maybe I can shed some light on the issue.  Though I know rather little about nccaa d-2 I believe there aren't any NAIA schools in d-2.  NCCAA d-1 teams are probably 2/3rds naia -2, with the rest being ncaa-2 and naia-1, with a couple d3 squads thrown in there (Northwestern, Greenville and Geneva).  Gardner-Webb of NCAA divison 1 played in the NCCAA up until maybe 5 years ago.  Non-scholarship nccaa teams can pick between the two divisions (Crown,  North Central  and some pennsylannia teams from d-3 play in nccaa-2).  

The Southwestern that Chapman played is playing in its first year in NAIA-2 and NCCAA-1, and they are definitely struggling, they're 44th out of 46 in the nccaa standings.   Interestingly enough, if Chapman had scheduled the southwestern (Oklahoma) that plays in nccaa d-2, they might have got a better game as that squad soundly beat ncaa-2 East Central University.  Or if they scheduled Grace Bible College in Grand Rapids which beat Calvin earlier in the year (when I first looked at that score I assumed it was Grace out of Indiana which plays naia and nccaa-1, but no it was calvin's cross town rival out of the nccaa2)

The NCCAA d-1 tournament does feel like a consolation tournament for many of the teams as they were hoping for naia or ncaa2 berths.  When I played at Northwestern we were a little more excited to be playing as this was the only post-season we were eligible for (this is the first year Northwestern can play in the ncaa playoffs-aq next year).  The d-1 tournament is a step up compared to the schedule that some naia schools play as it is the best of the schools that don't make it to the naia tournament.  You can't really say that the NAIA overall is a step up from the NCCAA as the NCCAA is made up of the NAIA.  For schools like mine who play in ncaa-3 and nccaa-1, the nccaa tournament is more challenging than regular season d-3 play, and most years the champion from the nccaa would beat the d-3 champion.  The NCCAA d-2 tournament is the highest goal for a majority of the squads that play in that division (though not the toughest games for schools like Grace of Grand Rapids who are scheduling anybody during the regular season).  

So to sum up, just because you play against a school that plays in the NCCAA doesn't mean it's going to be a cakewalk.  Chapman doesn't have many options here and shouldn't be criticized for scheduling Southwestern.

Thanks for the firsthand 411 and for bringing up examples such as Grace Bible and Gardner-Webb that illustrate that an NCCAA team can be a legit opponent if it faces a D3 team. I would not agree with your comment that I bolded, though, since the fact that Southwestern declared for the NAIA-2 tourney pretty clearly illlustrates where its priorities lie in terms of seeking postseason competition.

[dahlby]

Southwestern College's web site lists them as NAIA and NCCAA. They continue to play in the PCAC, which is made up of NCCAA schools. The NAIA web site lists them as  NAIA Division 2  as an independent. Southwestern's web site is swcaz.edu  .

[OxyBob]

They shouldn't, but OB has a bug up his you-know-where about it and has taken this issue to the ax-grinding level.

This is an official warning to OB -- enough. Move on.

Geez! These forums can be strict... OxyBob and I were just getting warmed up... 

Message received. PC's the boss.

OxyBob