Bumblin' B's

[AO]

While it's technically accurate to refer to Southwestern (AZ) as an NCCAA school, it's more accurate to refer to it as an NAIA-2 school.

The Massey Ratings list Southwestern as an NCCAA-II school. That's where I got it. I'm sure that Ken Massey would be very interested in your abstruse, hairsplitting analysis. You can forward it to him at kmassey@masseyratings.com.

It's got nothing to do with my analysis and everything to do with your endless and tiresome crusade to run down Chapman at every opportunity. I don't care enough to e-mail Ken Massey about it, but he's clearly wrong about Southwestern's affiliation; the Eagles should be listed as an NAIA-2 team, because they have declared for the NAIA-2 postseason tourney.

Having played in an NCCAA national tournament (d-1), maybe I can shed some light on the issue.  Though I know rather little about nccaa d-2 I believe there aren't any NAIA schools in d-2.  NCCAA d-1 teams are probably 2/3rds naia -2, with the rest being ncaa-2 and naia-1, with a couple d3 squads thrown in there (Northwestern, Greenville and Geneva).  Gardner-Webb of NCAA divison 1 played in the NCCAA up until maybe 5 years ago.  Non-scholarship nccaa teams can pick between the two divisions (Crown,  North Central  and some pennsylannia teams from d-3 play in nccaa-2).  

The Southwestern that Chapman played is playing in its first year in NAIA-2 and NCCAA-1, and they are definitely struggling, they're 44th out of 46 in the nccaa standings.   Interestingly enough, if Chapman had scheduled the southwestern (Oklahoma) that plays in nccaa d-2, they might have got a better game as that squad soundly beat ncaa-2 East Central University.  Or if they scheduled Grace Bible College in Grand Rapids which beat Calvin earlier in the year (when I first looked at that score I assumed it was Grace out of Indiana which plays naia and nccaa-1, but no it was calvin's cross town rival out of the nccaa2)

The NCCAA d-1 tournament does feel like a consolation tournament for many of the teams as they were hoping for naia or ncaa2 berths.  When I played at Northwestern we were a little more excited to be playing as this was the only post-season we were eligible for (this is the first year Northwestern can play in the ncaa playoffs-aq next year).  The d-1 tournament is a step up compared to the schedule that some naia schools play as it is the best of the schools that don't make it to the naia tournament.  You can't really say that the NAIA overall is a step up from the NCCAA as the NCCAA is made up of the NAIA.  For schools like mine who play in ncaa-3 and nccaa-1, the nccaa tournament is more challenging than regular season d-3 play, and most years the champion from the nccaa would beat the d-3 champion.  The NCCAA d-2 tournament is the highest goal for a majority of the squads that play in that division (though not the toughest games for schools like Grace of Grand Rapids who are scheduling anybody during the regular season).  

So to sum up, just because you play against a school that plays in the NCCAA doesn't mean it's going to be a cakewalk.  Chapman doesn't have many options here and shouldn't be criticized for scheduling Southwestern.

Thanks for the firsthand 411 and for bringing up examples such as Grace Bible and Gardner-Webb that illustrate that an NCCAA team can be a legit opponent if it faces a D3 team. I would not agree with your comment that I bolded, though, since the fact that Southwestern declared for the NAIA-2 tourney pretty clearly illlustrates where its priorities lie in terms of seeking postseason competition.

The NCCAA/NAIA doesn't require that you commit solely to its post-season.   All the d-1 schools essentially declare for the both tournaments with the understanding that they will play in the ncaa or naia tournament if they make it.  While NCCAA 2 can be thought of as its own division and ranked accordingly, it might make more sense to rank NCCAA 1 as a nationwide conference across multiple divisions.   The NCCAA 1 exists almost solely to put on the tournament, they don't really worry about the differences in regulation between ncaa3 and naia1, just get em on the court.

[Gregory Sager]

Southwestern College's web site lists them as NAIA and NCCAA.

Yes, as I said yesterday Southwestern is a dual affiliate.

They continue to play in the PCAC, which is made up of NCCAA schools. The NAIA web site lists them as  NAIA Division 2  as an independent.

Southwestern is actually a member of an NAIA-2 quasi-league called the Association of Independent Institutions. If you'll take a look at the bottom of the Southwestern schedule you'll see "AII PLAYOFFS" scheduled for February 25-26. The AII consists of twelve schools spread across the country that hold a tournament to qualify for an automatic bid into the NAIA-2 national tourney, just like a normal NAIA-2 league. That's in addition to Southwestern's PCAC membership, which does not play a factor in Southwestern's postseason plans.

The NCCAA/NAIA doesn't require that you commit solely to its post-season.

Not true. The NAIA does require that you commit solely to its postseason tournament, as can be seen from this 2008 amendment to the NAIA bylaws.

[AO]

The NCCAA/NAIA doesn't require that you commit solely to its post-season.

Not true. The NAIA does require that you commit solely to its postseason tournament, as can be seen from this 2008 amendment to the NAIA bylaws.

I think you should read the amendment again.  There is nothing about a "sole" commitment.  NCCAA schools commit to both post-season's but the NCCAA commitment is understood that if the team makes the ncaa or naia post-season, they will not and cannot participate in the nccaa tournament.

[David Collinge]

It's times like these that I long for another appearance of Miss Shortskirt.

[Gregory Sager]

The NCCAA/NAIA doesn't require that you commit solely to its post-season.

Not true. The NAIA does require that you commit solely to its postseason tournament, as can be seen from this 2008 amendment to the NAIA bylaws.

I think you should read the amendment again.  There is nothing about a "sole" commitment.  NCCAA schools commit to both post-season's but the NCCAA commitment is understood that if the team makes the ncaa or naia post-season, they will not and cannot participate in the nccaa tournament.

Good catch. The purpose of the amendment was to make the NAIA the mandatory first choice of any member school with regard to postseason play.

[nwhoops1903]

It's times like these that I long for another appearance of Miss Shortskirt.

HILARIOUS!

[Pat Coleman]

New regional rankings:
http://d3blogs.com/d3hoops/2010/02/10/2010-regional-rankings-week-2/

[hopefan]

so.... are Chapman and Maryville Pool B locks?    Is anyone else able to be considered?

[KnightSlappy]

so.... are Chapman and Maryville Pool B locks?    Is anyone else able to be considered?

I think it's pretty safe to say that they're the two.

Champman's done, and they're ranked in the west... they'll be in.
Maryville has the GSAC tournamnet, but even a (unlikely) loss in the semis shouldn't keep them out.

Elms and Northwestern (Minn.) are probably the next two, but they seem to be well back from Chapman and Maryville.

[Just Bill]

It's times like these that I long for another appearance of Miss Shortskirt.

Gosh, I miss her.

Oh, to be young and have flexible scruples again. (Rather than old and have flexible scruples as I am now)

[Ralph Turner]

Pool B 2010:

at Chapman 58, Claremont-Mudd-Scripps  47
at Whitworth  77, Chapman  56

John Carroll  88, Maryville TN 67 (at Guilford)

[scottiedoug]

The B's performance underscores the dilemma of scheduling for teams not in AQ conferences.  If you schedule quite a few really good teams during the season, you run the risk of losing while you learn what it takes to compete with JCU or Guilford, but having played and lost a few, you cannot get a Bumblin' B's bid.   And many of the better conferences require so many in-conference games that teams do not want/cannot find time to play Maryville.

Playing D2 or good NAIA teams does not help with the NCAA D3 selection process even though it can be a learning experience.  Maryville played Guilford and got waxed and beat several other teams that were pretty good and played in good conferences (Centre, Transylvania, Wabash), but it still is a challenge!

Congratulations to Chapman for winning one.  JCU was a tough slot for the Scots!

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

The B's performance underscores the dilemma of scheduling for teams not in AQ conferences.  If you schedule quite a few really good teams during the season, you run the risk of losing while you learn what it takes to compete with JCU or Guilford, but having played and lost a few, you cannot get a Bumblin' B's bid.   

I don't think that's proven true in the past.  Pool B is shrinking dramatically every year, so perhaps it will be a little more competitive between the top teams.  However, we have seen in the past that a Pool B squad with a lesser record, but a strong SOS get the nod for tournament play.

Your comment may be more true for Chapman, who simply lacks available opponents and thus almost always has a lower SOS and must win most of their games.  But for a team like Maryville, they have the luxury of scheduling stronger opponents.  Obviously they still have to win some of those games, but they can also afford to lose a few.  Even a loss to Guilford helps their SOS number.

[Ralph Turner]

I recommend that Chapman and Maryville meet some place like UDallas and play on a neutral floor.

Then you could pick up another in-region game (UDallas) for both teams (South Region for Maryville and Admin Region #4 for Chapman).

[nwhoops1903]

All I am gonna say about Chapman is they were no slouch.  Good players, prepared and determined.  They hung with Whitworth as well as anyone did this year in Spokane.