Bumblin' B's

[Mr. Ypsi]

What your failing to get is the fact that teams in a league can get a chance to redeem a loss in league play. As an independent, they don't have the same luxury. Therefore the word "pre-season" applies to "pre-league play". Is that better for you to understand since the word pre-season is throwing you for a loop?

Even 'pre-league' is inaccurate, since many, many conference teams play at least one non-con game after conference play has started.  'Non-conference' would be far better.

Only scrimmages and exhibitions are 'pre-season'.  Otherwise, everything counts as 'season' (check out a stats page sometime - pre-season stats are never included, everything else is (though members of conferences will have both 'full season' and 'conference-only' stats).

You are clearly a minority of one in this argument.

[Gregory Sager]

What your failing to get is the fact that teams in a league can get a chance to redeem a loss in league play. As an independent, they don't have the same luxury. Therefore the word "pre-season" applies to "pre-league play". Is that better for you to understand since the word pre-season is throwing you for a loop?

According to the rules of NCAA Division III, the men's basketball season begins on November 15. Games played on or after that date are counted both towards a team's record and towards its 25-game allotment. As D-Mac said, you can't play a "pre-season" game once the season has already started. The term "pre-season", as Mr. Ypsi said, applies only to scrimmages and exhibitions that take place before November 15.

Chapman vs. CMS was not a pre-season game. It was a regular-season game for both Chapman and CMS, and a non-conference game for CMS. It was played after November 15, under NCAA D3's regular-season rules. In other words, that game counted towards the 25-game allotment of both CMS and Chapman, unlike a pre-season exhibition game. And, unlike a pre-season scrimmage, the CMS vs. Chapman contest included full uniforms; options for publicity and paid attendance; a full forty-minute scoreboard rather than the 20-minute-maximum scoreboard reset mandated for pre-season scrimmages; etc. The game counted towards the overall records of both CMS and Chapman, and it also counted towards the regional records of both CMS and Chapman.

Ergo, it was a regular-season game, not a pre-season game.

[The Wiz]

Regardless of all the technical data, words, facts, rules, etc. you want to throw my way, the fact remains Independents do not have the benefit of participating in league where they can receive an automatic bid. I don't understand why this is such a complex point to understand.

[Mr. Ypsi]

Regardless of all the technical data, words, facts, rules, etc. you want to throw my way, the fact remains Independents do not have the benefit of participating in league where they can receive an automatic bid. I don't understand why this is such a complex point to understand.

It isn't.  Is the concept of 'season' and 'preseason' too complex for you?

You are conflating (for those in conferences) 'conference' and 'non-conference' with 'season' and 'preseason'.  They are totally different categories.

[The Wiz]

I was using the word "pre-season" loosely to define the games before conference play. I didn't know everyone would be so upset with my terminology.

[Ralph Turner]

I was using the word "pre-season" loosely to define the games before conference play. I didn't know everyone would be so upset with my terminology.

Good morning!   

The way that Pool B works is that the NCAA has figured out how to use the Pools to the advantage of the teams like Chapman, e.g., in baseball.

We have plenty of Pool B's in baseball, even some Pool B's that earn playoff bids after the Pool B allocation is distributed.  Chapman's conference season begins on Nov 15th for football.  For Chapman baseball, the season started with Whittier and then went to McMurry.  Pre-season for Chapman baseball was the alumni game. 

[Just Bill]

I was using the word "pre-season" loosely to define the games before conference play. I didn't know everyone would be so upset with my terminology.

It wasn't your misue of the term, it was your ridiculously defensive posture after someone tried to correct you.

Move along folks.  Nothing to see here.

[The Wiz]

I was using the word "pre-season" loosely to define the games before conference play. I didn't know everyone would be so upset with my terminology.

It wasn't your misue of the term, it was your ridiculously defensive posture after someone tried to correct you.

Move along folks.  Nothing to see here.

It clearly was my misuse of the term because that is what everyone corrected me on. I was just trying to emphasize independent team seasons vs. teams in a league. 

[OxyBob]

It clearly was my misuse of the term because that is what everyone corrected me on. I was just trying to emphasize independent team seasons vs. teams in a league. 

I knew what you meant. Everyone knew what you meant. You're new, so you haven't learned to ignore the didactic, supercilious pedants who abound around here.

OxyBob

[oldchap]

It clearly was my misuse of the term because that is what everyone corrected me on. I was just trying to emphasize independent team seasons vs. teams in a league. 

I knew what you meant. Everyone knew what you meant. You're new, so you haven't learned to ignore the didactic, supercilious pedants who abound around here.

OxyBob

I'll side with you on this one, OB!! Maybe we should have an FAQ on the subject, so when some newbie is confused about the term "pre-season" vs. "non conference", we don't have to waste two pages of garbage.

Even I was corrected a few months ago (as a newbie myself), when I made the same mistake.

And by the way, I'm also siding with The Wiz on his argument. Last year, Pomona made the playoffs as an AQ, even though they had a dismal record (15-13, 8-6 conference), just because they managed to win the conference finals. That effectively "stole" a Pool C spot from some other worthy team, because Oxy made it as Pool C. (Oxy was clearly the better team, as proof of that, they handily beat Pomona in the first round).

Bottom line: Conference teams can have one great night and make it to the Playoffs. Indies (especially on the West Coast) cannot even afford one bad game for the entire season against a so-so team.

This argument goes to the heart of which teams the process is trying to reward. Is it the best consistent record? Or is it how strong you finish your season? It looks to me that there is confusion of purpose between Pool A winners (how strong you finish) versus Pool B and C (how consistent you are).

I'm not placing judgment here, only a question.

[ronk]

Prediction: the bumbling Bs will be in the championship game.

[scottiedoug]

oldchap raises an interesting question.  In the case of Maryville, an independent in a region where it is hard to build a good and competitive schedule, the team before January was 4 - 6 and wound up 20 -6.  They finished hot but because of early losses (3 to tournament teams) barely got in.  Virginia Wesleyan, whom Maryville beat before January, wound up hot and won the ODAC tournament but does not have a great overall or regional record.  It does seem that the different pools are rewarding different kinds of good work.

[OxyBob]

And by the way, I'm also siding with The Wiz on his argument. Last year, Pomona made the playoffs as an AQ, even though they had a dismal record (15-13, 8-6 conference), just because they managed to win the conference finals. That effectively "stole" a Pool C spot from some other worthy team, because Oxy made it as Pool C. (Oxy was clearly the better team, as proof of that, they handily beat Pomona in the first round).

Handily? Not to be didactic or pedantic, but Oxy beat Pomona 52-51 in the first round last season. Connor Whitman put the Tigers up by one with about 12 seconds left, and then Oxy blocked Adam Chiamowitz's baseline shot with under 4 seconds to go.

OxyBob

[NEPAFAN]

Prediction: the bumbling Bs will be in the championship game.

All three of them?

[TeeDub]

And by the way, I'm also siding with The Wiz on his argument. Last year, Pomona made the playoffs as an AQ, even though they had a dismal record (15-13, 8-6 conference), just because they managed to win the conference finals. That effectively "stole" a Pool C spot from some other worthy team, because Oxy made it as Pool C. (Oxy was clearly the better team, as proof of that, they handily beat Pomona in the first round).

Handily? Not to be didactic or pedantic, but Oxy beat Pomona 52-51 in the first round last season. Connor Whitman put the Tigers up by one with about 12 seconds left, and then Oxy blocked Adam Chiamowitz's baseline shot with under 4 seconds to go.

OxyBob

Wow...that was amazing...