Bumblin' B's

[oldchap]

And by the way, I'm also siding with The Wiz on his argument. Last year, Pomona made the playoffs as an AQ, even though they had a dismal record (15-13, 8-6 conference), just because they managed to win the conference finals. That effectively "stole" a Pool C spot from some other worthy team, because Oxy made it as Pool C. (Oxy was clearly the better team, as proof of that, they handily beat Pomona in the first round).

Handily? Not to be didactic or pedantic, but Oxy beat Pomona 52-51 in the first round last season. Connor Whitman put the Tigers up by one with about 12 seconds left, and then Oxy blocked Adam Chiamowitz's baseline shot with under 4 seconds to go.

OxyBob

OK, fine, OB. I was not at the game, unlike you I'm sure. But that has little to do with the point I was trying to make. I drew from my limited experience of D3 basketball by picking last year's Pomona, in comparison to an Independent such as Chapman (take Buena Vista or St Mary this year instead if you want).

Essentially here are the fundamental questions at stake here:

What is the purpose of the D3 basketball playoffs? What are we trying to reward? Which teams "deserve" to be represented? And what are the selection criteria in order to make sure these "deserving" teams indeed are going to be part of it?

[Pat Coleman]

Prediction: the bumbling Bs will be in the championship game.

Of what?

[Pat Coleman]

OK, fine, OB. I was not at the game, unlike you I'm sure. But that has little to do with the point I was trying to make.

Trying to fake.

BTW, you don't have to fake your way through things. We have schedules and results back to 2003 on the site.

[ronk]

Prediction: the bumbling Bs will be in the championship game.

Of what?

D3 men's bball. 3/21/2009

[oldchap]

OK, fine, OB. I was not at the game, unlike you I'm sure. But that has little to do with the point I was trying to make.

Trying to fake.

BTW, you don't have to fake your way through things. We have schedules and results back to 2003 on the site.

I was NOT trying to fake. I just became excited and added the word "handily" to my post. Good grief!! You people can't quit! I'm trying to have a useful conversation by asking pertinent questions and you are nit picking over everything! And taking away my karma... Forget it, I'm out!!!

[Gregory Sager]

I knew what you meant. Everyone knew what you meant. You're new, so you haven't learned to ignore the didactic, supercilious pedants who abound around here.

We've got a club, and a treehouse, and a secret handshake, and everything!

[OxyBob]

And by the way, I'm also siding with The Wiz on his argument. Last year, Pomona made the playoffs as an AQ, even though they had a dismal record (15-13, 8-6 conference), just because they managed to win the conference finals. That effectively "stole" a Pool C spot from some other worthy team, because Oxy made it as Pool C. (Oxy was clearly the better team, as proof of that, they handily beat Pomona in the first round).

Handily? Not to be didactic or pedantic, but Oxy beat Pomona 52-51 in the first round last season. Connor Whitman put the Tigers up by one with about 12 seconds left, and then Oxy blocked Adam Chiamowitz's baseline shot with under 4 seconds to go.

OK, fine, OB. I was not at the game, unlike you I'm sure. But that has little to do with the point I was trying to make.

I get your point. You think Chapman should have made the playoffs. You refuse to accept that Chapman as a Pool B contender played a lousy schedule, had the 3rd worst strength of schedule in all of D-III, didn't win the games it had to win, and therefore didn't qualify as a Pool B team under the NCAA criteria. The remedy for Chapman is easy: Play and beat better teams, and don't complain when no one's impressed that you beat La Sierra 5 times.

I knew what you meant. Everyone knew what you meant. You're new, so you haven't learned to ignore the didactic, supercilious pedants who abound around here.

We've got a club, and a treehouse, and a secret handshake, and everything!

http://www.marx-brothers.org/whyaduck/sounds/ducksoup/club.wav

OxyBob

[Gregory Sager]

Bottom line: Conference teams can have one great night and make it to the Playoffs. Indies (especially on the West Coast) cannot even afford one bad game for the entire season against a so-so team.

This argument goes to the heart of which teams the process is trying to reward. Is it the best consistent record? Or is it how strong you finish your season? It looks to me that there is confusion of purpose between Pool A winners (how strong you finish) versus Pool B and C (how consistent you are).

I'm not placing judgment here, only a question.

I think that you're confusing process with results a bit here. The NCAA doesn't declare by fiat that conference tournament winners from qualifying conferences have to be awarded the automatic bids from those conferences. That decision is left up to each individual conference. In other words, each league that has an automatic bid can apportion it to whomever it sees fit: Regular-season champion, conference tournament champion, team with the highest cumulative g.p.a., team with the most original mascot, whatever.

Sure, all but one of the qualifying conferences award their automatic bids to their conference tourney champ, but they don't have to. They choose to. And that's where things such as reward, purpose, and process come into play. It's the leagues themselves that are responsible for the "how strong you finish" emphasis in Pool A, not the NCAA or its representatives that administer the D3 tourney.

[batteredbard]

<Golf clap>
Amen. Conferences make the call.

But then Im still thinking mathematically DIII should be a 128 team field to proportionally match D1 with the percentage of teams in the division that get to dance.

[Ralph Turner]

<Golf clap>
Amen. Conferences make the call.

But then Im still thinking mathematically DIII should be a 128 team field to proportionally match D1 with the percentage of teams in the division that get to dance.

After the regular season, we determined that the "second season" began for about 250 teams.   

[hickory_cornhusker]

<Golf clap>
Amen. Conferences make the call.

But then Im still thinking mathematically DIII should be a 128 team field to proportionally match D1 with the percentage of teams in the division that get to dance.

Actually in proportion to D1's 65 teams D3 should have about 80 teams.

[oldchap]

I get your point. You think Chapman should have made the playoffs. You refuse to accept that Chapman as a Pool B contender played a lousy schedule, had the 3rd worst strength of schedule in all of D-III, didn't win the games it had to win, and therefore didn't qualify as a Pool B team under the NCAA criteria. The remedy for Chapman is easy: Play and beat better teams, and don't complain when no one's impressed that you beat La Sierra 5 times.

Look, OB. You and all the others have beat the dead horse so much with this, that I'm way past that. You just don't believe that I can actually have a conversation that doesn't involve Chapman.

My questions were simple. What is the purpose of the D3 playoffs? What kind of teams should make the playoffs? and in which way does the process help in making sure that the playoffs field the teams that are supposed to be part of it according the answers to the previous questions?

When I look at the Massey Ratings, it's interesting to note that teams ranked 1 through 9 actually made the playoffs. This seems logical right? But then, I see that some teams such as Augustana (#10), Buena Vista (#11), Oshkosh (#13), North Central IL (#15), etc. are not in the playoffs, while teams like Medaille (#177), SUNYIT (#238), Brockport (#200) or Husson (#310) made it. That's when I wonder and ask the questions above.

And, please, please, don't lecture me about Massey not being used by D3, or whatever else you're going to come up with. I know all that. I use Massey as a measure of how good the teams are, more or less. At least I would think that Augustana is a much better team than Husson, or am I wrong here too?!

And please stop taking away my k. I'm being a good citizen here and you guys are playing God. 

[sac]

Remember the goals of D3 post-season play is much more about providing participation opportunities, not the best tournament possible.

In the past some conference champions didn't even make the NCAA tournament.  The auto-matic bids make sure there is an avenue for certain conferences to participate in the D3 tournament in all sports.  Its up to the conferences to determine how that AQ is handed out.

Pool C allows a number of teams to participate who have earned it with their play throughout the season, but didn't earn an AQ.  Sometimes its going to be a team that stumbled in the AQ tournament, sometimes its going to be a team that might be right behind another conference foe that just as good or better.

Pool B allows schools who don't have a conference or who's conference doesn't have an auto-bid an avenue into the tournament before Pool C.

[TeeDub]

When I look at the Massey Ratings, it's interesting to note that teams ranked 1 through 9 actually made the playoffs. This seems logical right? But then, I see that some teams such as Augustana (#10), Buena Vista (#11), Oshkosh (#13), North Central IL (#15), etc. are not in the playoffs, while teams like Medaille (#177), SUNYIT (#238), Brockport (#200) or Husson (#310) made it. That's when I wonder and ask the questions above.

---------------------------------

And please stop taking away my k.

I appreciate your questions as someone new to the discussion.  The reality is that these arguments have been hashed over many times in the halls of d3hoops.com, so that may add to the tone of some of the responses.  Nonetheless, just taking the point above about who gets in and who doesn't as you allude to above, the same questions can be asked in Division I as well.  There are quite often 'better' teams that get left out and conference 'champions' that get let in...that is just the way it is.  And in my opinion, it is the right way to do it.  That is actually what makes this time of year so great.

As for the karma, whining about it will usually only result in it going away.  Make your points, be flexible to what you get back in return and don't pay attention to the karma.

[Ralph Turner]

I get your point. You think Chapman should have made the playoffs. You refuse to accept that Chapman as a Pool B contender played a lousy schedule, had the 3rd worst strength of schedule in all of D-III, didn't win the games it had to win, and therefore didn't qualify as a Pool B team under the NCAA criteria. The remedy for Chapman is easy: Play and beat better teams, and don't complain when no one's impressed that you beat La Sierra 5 times.

Look, OB. You and all the others have beat the dead horse so much with this, that I'm way past that. You just don't believe that I can actually have a conversation that doesn't involve Chapman.

My questions were simple. What is the purpose of the D3 playoffs?

To provide the competitive experience of a national tourney.  We had a recent discussion across all of D-III about this issue, believe it or not.  Some in D-III would be happy just to have the regular season and have no playoffs to interfere with academic work.  We have about 100 pages of message board discussion, news and analysis on the General Topics Board

What kind of teams should make the playoffs?

Teams in conferences as the system had evolved.

and in which way does the process help in making sure that the playoffs field the teams that are supposed to be part of it according the answers to the previous questions?

The Championships Committee tries to refine the process to all the greatest access to all teams in this process.  Chapman does a great job in some sports in Pool B.  They seem to fall short in men's basketball.

When I look at the Massey Ratings, it's interesting to note that teams ranked 1 through 9 actually made the playoffs. This seems logical right? But then, I see that some teams such as Augustana (#10), Buena Vista (#11), Oshkosh (#13), North Central IL (#15), etc. are not in the playoffs, while teams like Medaille (#177), SUNYIT (#238), Brockport (#200) or Husson (#310) made it. That's when I wonder and ask the questions above.

And, please, please, don't lecture me about Massey not being used by D3, or whatever else you're going to come up with. I know all that. I use Massey as a measure of how good the teams are, more or less. At least I would think that Augustana is a much better team than Husson, or am I wrong here too?!

You are right about Augie and Husson.  Augie has chosen to be a part of the CCIW and to consider those schools as peer institutions.  If they wanted to join the North Atlantic Conference ( or the unlikely possibility that the NAC would extend an invitation to a school in Illinois) then they could earn the Pool A bid from the NAC.

And please stop taking away my k. I'm being a good citizen here and you guys are playing God. 

Okay, let's look at this.

1)  Forget any notions brought over from D-1.  D3 is about student-athletes taking time off from class work to compete in amateur athletics, not about making the school millions of dollars.

2) There is an automatic qualifier bid for every conference to be used as the conference wishes.   The good news is that the NCAA has a really lucrative contract for March Madness and D-III is able to fund some at-large bids.  When the money dries up, then the NCAA will consider something else.  The NAIA schools pay their way to their national tourney.   Some NAIA schools didn't have the money some years, so they haven't gone!

As for the at-large bids, especially the Pool C bids, the recent NCAA March Madness contract allowed the NCAA to increase dramatically the number of at-large bids given.

3)  Look at the team pages for Augie and North Central.   They lost in the conference tourney.  Buena Vista and  UW-Oshkosh did not win the conference tourney either.

4)  Medaille -- winner of the Allegheny Mountain Collegiate Conference.  SUNYIT -- winner of the North Eastern Athletic Conference. Brockport won the SUNYAC.  Husson won the North Atlantic Conference.  Just as sac said...access to post-season participation.

Augie and North Central came up a few "inches" short of that last bid!