Bumblin' B's

[oldchap]

To provide the competitive experience of a national tourney.  We had a recent discussion across all of D-III about this issue, believe it or not.  Some in D-III would be happy just to have the regular season and have no playoffs to interfere with academic work.  We have about 100 pages of message board discussion, news and analysis on the General Topics Board

Thank you!!

Links to these pages would be greatly appreciated. 

3)  Look at the team pages for Augie and North Central.   They lost in the conference tourney.  Buena Vista and  UW-Oshkosh did not win the conference tourney either.

4)  Medaille -- winner of the Allegheny Mountain Collegiate Conference.  SUNYIT -- winner of the North Eastern Athletic Conference. Brockport won the SUNYAC.  Husson won the North Atlantic Conference.  Just as sac said...access to post-season participation.

Augie and North Central came up a few "inches" short of that last bid!

My other point was to say that there seems to be a disconnect in the selection process between Pool A, which reward teams that finish strong regardless of whether they had a few "bad" losses during the season, versus Pool B and Pool C (and especially Pool B), which need to have a very consistent season and not lose to teams which they shouldn't lose to. What's your opinion about this?


...And my apologies for getting hot under the collar. Oxybob sure knows how to push my button...   

[Ralph Turner]

The best way to look at Pool B is to consider Pool B schools as one big conference that extends coast to coast.

You won't see every Pool B school, so the current arrangement has evolved to give a reasonable access to the tourney.  The Pool B bid number is determined by dividing the number of Pool B schools by the access ratio (the number of members of Pool A conferences divided by the number of Pool A conferences).  Please read back to find my discussions about the number of Pool B this year.

Because we are blessed with the number of Pool C bids, everyone else, who doesn't get a Pool A or Pool B bid, goes into Pool C to be reconsidered.

This is kinda like determining the 3018th finisher in the New York City Marathon.

Bingo, right there in the middle of a pack of 200 runners who are crossing the finish line in one big mass, after 26.2 miles, the judges determine that one person is the 3018th finisher and gets the last prize!


Future of D-III

As for how a conference wishes to reward its Pool A, that allows conferences to award the regular season champ with the bid as the UAA does or to hold the incentive open to teams to keep on getting better for the post-season.  I aveor conference autonomy.  I think that it is fair to hang a "regular season" championship banner and then hold the tourney for the national championship, another chance for a banner.

In fact the post-season tourney that Chapman attended last weekend is a creation of the Association of D-III Independents to give more chances at the post-season.

[The Wiz]

I am glad to see this conversation has evolved from everyone hating on Chapman to more reasonable questions pertaining to the NCAA D3 playoffs. 

[Pat Coleman]

What I think the current Pool B crew is losing sight of is that Pool B is a damn sight better than how independents would've gotten in the tournament before. The honest truth is, you had no guaranteed path to the tournament whatsoever. Now you have the SAME ratio of bids set aside for your group as the rest of Division III has set aside for its group. That's about as fair as you're going to get.

Now, Chapman didn't qualify under this system for one of the three bids set aside specifically for it to compete for. If Chapman had proven itself worthy on the floor, it could have gotten a bid to the tournament. Championship access is there, and the so-called "power conferences" willingly gave up some of their access to the tournament in order to give access to everyone else.

Division III has bent over backwards for this, and in many sports it is to the detriment of the overall quality of the tournament field. Clearly Chapman fans don't like the system, but it's as good as it's going to get. Now you have to have your administration FINALLY get with the program and schedule like you're interested in making the tournament.

I listened to Chapman types whine in 2001 about not getting in at 20-5. Chapman has only gotten marginally better in scheduling since then. At least San Jose Christian, LIFE Bible and Southwestern College (you know, Southwestern Bible in Arizona) are gone. But after now 10 years of the Pools system, Chapman men's basketball should have figured it out.

[The Wiz]

Serious question here, not trying to be a wise guy nor trying to start conflict. I just want to understand how a team 24-3 is not worthy enough in a field of 60. Yes I understand their strength of schedule is pathetic, but beating any team 5 times is not an easy thing to do. Should they have beaten Whitworth, maybe not, Whitman, should have, Dallas, absolutely. But winning 24 games is an impressive feat to accomplish. Yes La Sierra is not very good, but Chapman still beat them 5 times.

Another question, what SOS number is good to have? 250 below? 300 below? Like i said, not trying to whine or stir up conflict, just looking for the input of what others think.   

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

Serious question here, not trying to be a wise guy nor trying to start conflict. I just want to understand how a team 24-3 is not worthy enough in a field of 60.

It is schedule.  However, there is also an issue of wins.  I think Chapman would have had a case if they has been able to beat one of the top teams.  Their signature win was over CMS in the very first game of the year.

They had a tough game against Whitworth, but there were no challenges at the end of the year at all.  Eight games against LaSierra and Santa Cruz reflects poorly on the schedule.

I think if Chapman had scheduled some more regional opponents with a better cross reference (like UDallas) it would have helped (especially because a solid team would win a few of them.

[ronk]

  Here's a Pool B question from a different angle:
     Why's the Landmark placed in Pool B in the 1st place? Al least half of the schools have been in D3 from the beginning of D3? What's the NCAA trying to achieve/avoid with this policy?

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

  Here's a Pool B question from a different angle:
     Why's the Landmark placed in Pool B in the 1st place? Al least half of the schools have been in D3 from the beginning of D3? What's the NCAA trying to achieve/avoid with this policy?

The NCAA wants to make sure the conference is solid before giving them an AQ.  You wouldn't want schools hopping from conference to conference simply for a better chance at the post-season.

Not that those scenarios are that likely, but you know someone would push the envelope if it was available.

[Ralph Turner]

Serious question here, not trying to be a wise guy nor trying to start conflict. I just want to understand how a team 24-3 is not worthy enough in a field of 60.
...

Another question, what SOS number is good to have? 250 below? 300 below? Like i said, not trying to whine or stir up conflict, just looking for the input of what others think.   

I look at it this way.  In the "3-bid conference" that is Pool B, Chapman lost two games (Whitman 9-16 overall / 5-11 in the NWC and UDallas 9-18 overall) that disqualified itself.  Chapman did not beat weak teams like Whitman and UDallas.

Look carefully at the Pool C teams that are sitting home.

My alma mater, McMurry was South Region #4 in the February 11th regional rankings (15-6/ 14-4 south region).  That week we traveled 350 miles to Alpine TX (elevation 4450 feet above sea level) and lost 56-59 at Sul Ross (8-17, all wins were at home).  IMHO, that loss alone may have cost us the Pool C.  That is fair. We did not win a game that a Pool C team should have won.  We lost in the tourney to another team that was regionally that week.  We did not do what we needed to do.

Chapman would have had an almost irrefutable case, if they had lost only one game, Whitworth.

Pat runs into this year after year.  I wish we had the message board from 2002 2003.  Chapman fans were saying the same thing then. 

Baseball has figured it out.  Let that be your guide.

[Pat Coleman]

Another question, what SOS number is good to have? 250 below? 300 below? Like i said, not trying to whine or stir up conflict, just looking for the input of what others think.   

Among the final Pool C teams we looked at, ones that got in had an opponents winning percentage around .500 or above. Buena Vista's was .464, Randolph-Macon's was .481, St. Mary's was .475 and Calvin's was .496.

Franklin and Marshall was .535, Trinity (Texas) was .496, Farmingdale was .502, Amherst was .535.

Where that falls in the ranking itself may vary from year to year.

And remember that OWP is calculated while omitting the games you played against the team. So the 17 losses that Chapman inflicted on its opponents (and three wins) are removed from the equation.

[The Wiz]

Fair enough. I hope Chapman figures the system out so their players have a chance to play on the big stage. Thanks for the input!

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

  Here's a Pool B question from a different angle:
     Why's the Landmark placed in Pool B in the 1st place? Al least half of the schools have been in D3 from the beginning of D3? What's the NCAA trying to achieve/avoid with this policy?

New conferences are not given a Pool A bid for two years. NECC is in that situation this year and next (Elms) and the Landmark will get a Pool A bid next season (along with the UMAC???). The idea is to keep things stable. If the Landmark had formed and after a year several schools left and others entered, the NCAA would have foolishly given a conference an automatic bid when that conference probably didn't deserve it.

[susiddad]

Pat,

How far was SU behind Maryville?  Did SU pass Chapman? Last Pool B team on the outside looking in was? 

Thanks.

[ronk]

  Here's a Pool B question from a different angle:
     Why's the Landmark placed in Pool B in the 1st place? Al least half of the schools have been in D3 from the beginning of D3? What's the NCAA trying to achieve/avoid with this policy?

New conferences are not given a Pool A bid for two years. NECC is in that situation this year and next (Elms) and the Landmark will get a Pool A bid next season (along with the UMAC???). The idea is to keep things stable. If the Landmark had formed and after a year several schools left and others entered, the NCAA would have foolishly given a conference an automatic bid when that conference probably didn't deserve it.

Dmac,
  Deserving is in the eye of the beholder. I argue that with all their D3 history, these schools are at least as worthy as any others that have an AQ. They have a lot more stability than the MAC Freedom and Commonwealth over the same years.

[Pat Coleman]

Pat,

How far was SU behind Maryville?  Did SU pass Chapman? Last Pool B team on the outside looking in was? 

Thanks.

In my opinion ... and it's just my opinion ... Susquehanna was fourth, not very far behind Maryville but far enough so that it was a clear fourth.