Bumblin' B's

[patcummings]

I am frustrated by the topic for this reason...I think both sides of the "Was Lincoln right?" vs. "Was Lincoln wrong?" are valid.  There are legitimate positions for both.

Did they embarrass an overmatched team?  Absolutely.

Did they play the game the way they play it and not change no matter who their opponent is?  Absolutely.

Did they play the opponent they drew?  Yes.

Did they approach the game in an intelligent, well-developed game plan unique to their opponent like most teams would?  No - at least it certainly doesn't seem that way.

A review of Lincoln's immediate basketball past would seem to indicate that the Lions can only play one type of basketball.  They don't seem to be very flexible (note the final scores in their losses).  I think it would have been harder for them to "slow up" and "ease-off" of OSU-M than playing the way they did.

I believe there is value in the quantification of the win.  Compare what UDC did the night before versus their season average...and Lincoln isn't that far out of line.  Something Pat Coleman has noted.

Anyone see this one?

The University of Tennessee women's team beat UT-Martin 85-29 one game after losing to UNC in a battle of real solid teams.  No one is talking about that, but proportionally, it's similar.  It was 43-13 at the half, and some of the starters played in the 2nd half.  The Lady Vols took 15 3-pointers in the 2nd half.  Two of their starters, who had 2nd half minutes, also had more points combined than the entire UT-Martin team.

No one is talking about the fact that Tenn. had 74% of the points in the game.

Lincoln had 72% of the points in their game.  A little perspective never hurt.

Should Wylie have played the last nine minutes of the game?  Would it have been different if he played the first nine minutes of the 2nd half?  The all-American played 24 minutes...does it really matter in which 24 minutes of the game he played.  Pat Summitt's sophomore all-American had 22 minutes with 17 points and 11 rebounds. 

I think we are experiencing a whole bunch of spin because of the 201 number.  We see something eye-popping and respond with extremity to a situation that was repeated a few nights later on a smaller scale but with the same lopsided, eye-popping result. 

All examples drawn to scale.

[Mr. Ypsi]

Pat,

Good post, but why did Wylie play ANY minutes in the second half (whether first or last)?  Is he really going to gain anything but a bit of exercise against these guys?  This is the chance for the coach to reward the guys who see nothing but 'garbage minutes'; they should have played the ENTIRE second half (and probably most of the first)!.

Two points about your UT-women's comparison (uh oh, two points is what got me in trouble last night! ):

1. This is a D3 MEN'S bball forum - I have no idea whether or not the d1 UT women's team is receiving grief elsewhere (and doubt you do either), though probably not because,

2. It's a great sign for women's hoops that you even noticed this.  15-20 years ago (perhaps even more recently) that was the NORM for mismatches (I recall one hs game in Michigan [unfortunately have NO idea where to go to check that memory! ] where the losing team scored ONE point)!  That you even noticed the UT score (and considered it to be so unusual) is a sign that more and more young women are becoming involved, and are becoming ATHLETES!  Those sort of beatdowns are still more common in women's hoops, but nothing compared to what they once were.

[AndOne]

Wilburt-----

Yes, I did use strong words for 2 reasons. First, the totally classless acts of the Lincoln coach and team called for a strong response. Secondly, strong words seemed like the only ones that had any possibility of getting through to someone like you who actually defended Lincoln's actions. Alas, I failed even when using strong words. 

Sorry if you don't like it, but gangsters (I specifically DID NOT use the word gangstas (as YOU did) because some people could possibly find this race based & offensive) is EXACTLY how the Lincoln team played---they not only got the other team down, but kicked and stomped them afterward. Grinnell never did anything like that as far as I'm aware.

Additionally, your attempt to characterize ANY of my comments as racial in any way, shape, or form is both pitiful and laughable. YOU are the one who interjected the racial question with the inclusion of your attachment of the article in your posts---suggesting the only reason so many people criticized Lincoln is because the team is African-American. Hogwash.

I questioned your use of words to criticize Lincoln as racist - you dumb@$$. (That seems to be the only type of language you understand).  NOT the fact that people criticized them because the team is African-American. (I may or may not agree with the criticism).  You must not have done very well in English comprehension because you failed to grasp the distinction I made.  Others seemed to have gotten it!

Given your tendency to use such strong language I hereby give you my Mike "Kramer" RICHARDS AWARD FOR OVEREACTING to hecklers or anyone else who may happen to disagree with you.

DHF - my apologizes!  I still AGREE WITH HER!

BTW, I still support the Lincoln Basketball team and wish them well the rest of the season.  I also wish the Ohio State University-Marion basketball team Good Luck the rest of the season as well!

Re: MAC Freedom League
« Reply #1159 on: Yesterday at 07:31:55 pm »    Reply with quote Modify message Remove message
Quote from: wilburt on Yesterday at 01:11:09 pm
MinusOne 


Quote from: wb1313 on Yesterday at 02:59:49 pm
What are you talking about?  Racist overtones from me?  I'm not allowed to criticize a HBCU over what 99% of America felt was out of control and unsportsmanlike.  If that is the criteria for being a racist then fine...you got me...(sarcasm)

Wilburt, your lack of knowledge and understanding astounds me and the fact that you use childish antics such as copy the first four words of a sentence to attempt a lame joke is pathetic.

I'm beyond wanting to rip you apart through witty conversation.  The realization that i'd be going up against someone with a lower IQ than the coach at Lincoln makes me fully believe that you're not worth my time.  Goodbye!

Quote from: NEPAFAN on Yesterday at 03:47:48 pm
Please post the "racist overtones" used in any post on this board...

Wilbur----

I am going to summarize things and then I'm done with you. Its not worth any more space & time.

* That Lincoln U, & especially its coach, displayed a lack of judgement, leadership,
    sportsmanship, and even common decency is NOT open to question. If you don't
    want to believe me, review all the posts both here and in Bumblin' B's. The vast
    majority of them support this fact.

* That Lincoln's actions were/are indefensible is evidenced by, amomg other things,
   the fact that the Lincoln AD issued a public apology, and even your perhaps
   closest ally, njlincolnlion apoligized on behalf of Lincoln in his post of 11:20:45
   on 12/3/06.

* NOBODY---myself, Cold Case, wb1313, NEPAFAN, or anyone else EVER introduced
   race in any way, shape, or form into the discussion of Lincoln's abhorant behavior
   While I DID describe their play as "like gangsters," I made it a point
   to explain my meaning by indicating I meant that it didn't seen like enough to get
   OSUM down, but then they also had to beat & kick them after they were down by
   scoring 70 more than OSUM in the 2nd 1/2 after they already led by 53 at halftime

*  YOU in fact interjected race into the discussion by adding the attachment
    concerning the racial incident (http://www.blackathlete.net/artman/publish/
    article_02335.shtml) into one of your early posts.

* YOU further attempted to inflame the issue in one of your replies to me in which
   you stated that I used the word "gangsta" (rather than gangsters as above)
   You changed what I said to feebily attempt to support your race based argument

*  We learn as kids that when a group of people is gathered the one who shouts
    "Who farted" is usually the one who did it. I think most of us also know that in a
     discussion on any subject, the one who first plays the race card and attempts
     to label the opposition's arguments as racist is usually the one who has the
     biggest problem relating to members of the opposite race, and in fact, is
     probably the most racist of the group.

*  As you have done now a couple of times, I would expect you to give me another
    negative Karma point.

Goodbye Wil. Take care, and good luck in life. As I can't give Karma points yet, I'll just close by returning the     you gave me along with the minus Karma at the top
of this post. I hope its as good for you as it was for me.   
   

[Gregory Sager]

Since Pat Cummings is correct that we should be comparing the Lincoln/OSUM game to other blowouts in order to establish some statistical context, let's look at a D3 men's game that was played on Wednesday night. Wheaton (IL), for whatever reason (I'm hoping it was because of a late schedule cancellation) found itself hosting a hopelessly overmatched 0-4 Principia team that hasn't beaten a D3 opponent in close to a year and a half. Principia has been blown out by grotesque margins in all but one of their games (the exception being an eight-point loss to St. Louis College of Pharmacy, which ought to tell you just how far down the pyramid of small-school basketball you have to go to find a worthy opponent for Principia, as SLCOP is 2-10 and owns a victory over club team Logan Chiropractic as their only other win) in what is shaping up to be a season as dismal for the Panthers as was their 2-22 campaign last year.

Wheaton beat the Panthers, 112-52 (which means that Wheaton scored 68% of the points, FWIW). Ten minutes into the game it was 25-11, and at the half it was 52-21. But those scores could've been far more lopsided, as Wheaton head coach Bill Harris yanked his five starters very early in the game. None of the Wheaton starters played more than nine minutes of the entire ballgame. And the sixth man, forward Matt Ankeny, only saw nine minutes of action himself. All fifteen players who suited up played (four of them for the first time all season), and all but one of the non-rotation players at least doubled his total of minutes played this season.

While it is true that Wheaton was attempting treys throughout the second half, if you examine the PBP you'll notice that most of Wheaton's shot attempts came 20 seconds or more after a change of possession -- an indication that the hosts were trying to hold the ball and thus hold down the score. In that context a trey attempt is understandable, as it may be the only option left with the shot clock winding down to zero. Several of Wheaton's quicker second-half scores came immediately after steals -- and I think you can make the case that stopping and holding the ball after a steal when there's no defender between you and the basket is a bigger insult to the other team than is going in for the quick uncontested layup.

There is a right way and a wrong way for a coach to manage a blowout. Wheaton's Bill Harris did it the right way.

[hopefan]

good post Greg Sager

[wilburt]

I am frustrated by the topic for this reason...I think both sides of the "Was Lincoln right?" vs. "Was Lincoln wrong?" are valid.  There are legitimate positions for both.

Did they embarrass an overmatched team?  Absolutely.

Did they play the game the way they play it and not change no matter who their opponent is?  Absolutely.

Did they play the opponent they drew?  Yes.

Did they approach the game in an intelligent, well-developed game plan unique to their opponent like most teams would?  No - at least it certainly doesn't seem that way.

A review of Lincoln's immediate basketball past would seem to indicate that the Lions can only play one type of basketball.  They don't seem to be very flexible (note the final scores in their losses).  I think it would have been harder for them to "slow up" and "ease-off" of OSU-M than playing the way they did.

I believe there is value in the quantification of the win.  Compare what UDC did the night before versus their season average...and Lincoln isn't that far out of line.  Something Pat Coleman has noted.

Anyone see this one?

The University of Tennessee women's team beat UT-Martin 85-29 one game after losing to UNC in a battle of real solid teams.  No one is talking about that, but proportionally, it's similar.  It was 43-13 at the half, and some of the starters played in the 2nd half.  The Lady Vols took 15 3-pointers in the 2nd half.  Two of their starters, who had 2nd half minutes, also had more points combined than the entire UT-Martin team.

No one is talking about the fact that Tenn. had 74% of the points in the game.

Lincoln had 72% of the points in their game.  A little perspective never hurt.

Should Wylie have played the last nine minutes of the game?  Would it have been different if he played the first nine minutes of the 2nd half?  The all-American played 24 minutes...does it really matter in which 24 minutes of the game he played.  Pat Summitt's sophomore all-American had 22 minutes with 17 points and 11 rebounds. 

I think we are experiencing a whole bunch of spin because of the 201 number.  We see something eye-popping and respond with extremity to a situation that was repeated a few nights later on a smaller scale but with the same lopsided, eye-popping result. 

All examples drawn to scale.

Great Post Pat Cummings

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

I'd say that Tennessee game was a pretty poor showing too, espeecially for a squad entire bench is legitimately better than the Martin squad.

I like how Wheaton handled their game last night (although I'm more disturbed that Principia could be so bad as to lose by that much to the end of a bench, even one as good as Wheaton's), however I would have had no problem with them scoring even more.  I just want to see those guys at the end of the bench get the minutes.

Wheaton did that, Tennessee, Lincoln and plenty of other teams whose blowouts did not get the same press didn't.

Whatever, I'm well over this.  Do we have any other B news to report?  There are two other spots besides Lincoln's up for grabs in the tournament.

[Titan Q]

The University of Tennessee women's team beat UT-Martin 85-29 one game after losing to UNC in a battle of real solid teams.  No one is talking about that, but proportionally, it's similar.  It was 43-13 at the half, and some of the starters played in the 2nd half.  The Lady Vols took 15 3-pointers in the 2nd half.  Two of their starters, who had 2nd half minutes, also had more points combined than the entire UT-Martin team.

No one is talking about the fact that Tenn. had 74% of the points in the game.

I don't think this is great comparison.  I certainly didn't see the game, but in reading the game recap, it sure doesn't sound to me like Tennessee was running the score up. 

Parker scored 11 points in the first 12 minutes of the first half and then sat and watched until halftime. She added six points in the second half before going to the bench with most of the other starters with 10:15 remaining and the Lady Vols ahead by 41. (Candice Parker is Tennessee's All-American.)

When to pull starters out of a blowout is certainly up for debate, but to me, if you have your best player and your starters on the bench for the final 10 minutes or so, I think it is pretty clear you are not running the score up.  In the Lincoln game, Wylie took 10 shots in the final 10:00 and was in the game until the final horn.  It was so bad, Lincoln's A.D. had to issue a statement.

Also, UT-Martin is Pat Summitt's alma mater -- the basketball court is named after Summitt.  Summitt scheduled the game as a way to thank the university.

"Obviously if it weren't for the folks at UT-Martin I wouldn't have this job nor would I have been prepared for it," Summitt said. "I think just having the opportunity to have the folks from that area back here is very special for me."

She spoke to the UT-Martin team before the game.

Again, I wasn't there, but I really doubt Pat Summitt did anything unsportsmanlike in that game.  I just think it is an unfair and, to some degree, misleading comparison.


http://utladyvols.cstv.com/sports/w-baskbl/recaps/120506aaa.html

[patcummings]

I don't think this is great comparison.  I certainly didn't see the game, but in reading the game recap, it sure doesn't sound to me like Tennessee was running the score up. 

Parker scored 11 points in the first 12 minutes of the first half and then sat and watched until halftime. She added six points in the second half before going to the bench with most of the other starters with 10:15 remaining and the Lady Vols ahead by 41. (Candice Parker is Tennessee's All-American.)

When to pull starters out of a blowout is certainly up for debate, but to me, if you have your best player and your starters on the bench for the final 10 minutes or so, I think it is pretty clear you are not running the score up.  In the Lincoln game, Wylie took 10 shots in the final 10:00 and was in the game until the final horn.  It was so bad, Lincoln's A.D. had to issue a statement.

Also, UT-Martin is Pat Summitt's alma mater -- the basketball court is named after Summitt.  Summitt scheduled the game as a way to thank the university.

"Obviously if it weren't for the folks at UT-Martin I wouldn't have this job nor would I have been prepared for it," Summitt said. "I think just having the opportunity to have the folks from that area back here is very special for me."

She spoke to the UT-Martin team before the game.

Again, I wasn't there, but I really doubt Pat Summitt did anything unsportsmanlike in that game.  I just think it is an unfair and, to some degree, misleading comparison.


http://utladyvols.cstv.com/sports/w-baskbl/recaps/120506aaa.html

I think you've helped me make part of my point, Bob. 

The final score doesn't seem to indicate that it was as egregious as Lincoln's example...but that's just it.  201 points sticks out to everyone.  But given the proportionality, it's right in line with what UT did.

Wylie being in the game in the last nine and change - yeah, I don't think it's the smartest thing to do.  Imagine if he got injured...now that would be a story. 

Is it more outrageous that Summitt scheduled UT-Martin on her own and then wholeheartedly embarrassed them?  I think that might stand out more than Lincoln's drubbing of OSU-Marion.  At least UT-Martin probably got a nice payout...I have a hard time judging which example is more outlandish.  Really, truly, I'm kinda tossed here. 

Candace Parker (UT all-American) still played in the second half, after UT was up by 30.  Same thoughts here.  What if she got injured, when the Lady Vols were up by 35, 41, or more?  That would be a huge story. 

As I said before, I have feelings on both sides of the argument with Lincoln.  But there is a legitimate statistical comparison to the UT women's example. 

For those who disagree, consider that OSU-Marion STILL scored 78 points.  I mean, that could be a record for the most points scored by a team with 6 players dressed.  UT-Martin scores 29 all game.  Because the numbers don't appear as gaudy, it doesn't "feel" as bad, but on proportion, I find that it is appropriate to compare the two.

[wilburt]

Goodbye Wil. Take care, and good luck in life. As I can't give Karma points yet, I'll just close by returning the     you gave me along with the minus Karma at the top
of this post. I hope its as good for you as it was for me.   

Goodbye my friend. It seems that you are angry with me because I don't agree with you and as a result you were trying to brow beat me into doing so.  Well that hasn't happened, but it has been nice getting the best of you and your friends yesterday on the MAC Freedom board.  It's amazing how one person can easily frustrate, mock and humiliate an ENTIRE BOARD for a few hours! I hope you return to your remedial classes and get help with your reading comprehension sometime soon because A MIND IS TERRIBLE THING TO WASTE  BYE, BYE....

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

UM that last post seems perilously close to a TOS violation.  You might want to watch that.

[Gregory Sager]

I'm wary of any game-to-game comparison between men's basketball and women's basketball. For several different reasons I think that the two sports are apples and oranges -- and I say that as a fan of both men's and women's basketball. I'm also wary of any game-to-game comparison that crosses divisional lines. Those are the two reasons why I felt Principia @ Wheaton (IL) would be a better basis for comparison with Lincoln vs. OSUM than would the D1 women's game between Tennessee and UT-Martin.

[irapthor]

2. It's a great sign for women's hoops that you even noticed this.  15-20 years ago (perhaps even more recently) that was the NORM for mismatches (I recall one hs game in Michigan [unfortunately have NO idea where to go to check that memory! ] where the losing team scored ONE point)! 

Here is a link to the high school game you referenced...I remember seeing it mentioned in Sports Illustrated, remembered the name of the losing school, and found this link.

http://espn.go.com/moresports/news/2002/1121/1464158.html

For those who like high school sports, the article makes an interesting reference to the National Federation of State High School Associations.

[sac]

Before we go dragging the good people of Michigan through the mud, I should point out this game from boy's high school basketball on January 16, 1996

Jackson Northwest 7 Haslett 6...........5 Overtimes

In the ultimate in sportmanship both teams simply refused to shoot.  All 13 points were accidents. j/k

Really the deal was Haslett was known as a run and gun kind of team routinely hitting 80-90 points...........Jackson Northwest being completely overmatched simply held on to the ball for minutes at a time..........no shot clock in Michigan HS basketball. 

  They had to wake the scorekeeper everytime someone did score.

[Lefty]

Here is an article on the Lincoln game that was in the Baltimore Sun.  I find some of the players comments very interesting.



By Kent Baker
Sun reporter
Originally published December 9, 2006
Lincoln (Pa.) University men's basketball coach Garfield Yuille and his players saw beforehand a recipe for a rout, but no one envisioned that the team would set a Division III scoring record against Ohio State-Marion last Saturday. The Lions won, 201-78.

"They were a backup team that wasn't really supposed to play," said Lions forward Dwight Dean (Cardinal Gibbons), referring to Ohio State-Marion. "They only had six players, and the biggest was about 6-2, maybe 6-3. We press every game no matter who we play. It just came together and we executed at will. Everybody [all 16 Lincoln players who dressed] got significant minutes."

Added senior guard Vincent Carter-Bey (Randallstown): "We executed off their mistakes, and just took it as a normal game. Our style is up and down, and we score a lot of points. Unfortunately, we scored so many."

Yuille, whose roster includes eight Baltimore-area products, said Ohio State-Marion was a late replacement for Wayne State, which had pulled out of the 25th annual Joe Manchin Classic at Salem International in Salem, W.Va.

After seeing the shortage of players and size on the opposing team, Yuille said he asked tournament officials whether the Lions could play the University of the District of Columbia - the fourth entrant in the event - instead but was denied. Ohio State-Marion, which was receiving a guarantee as a replacement, agreed to play.

Yuille has received a lot of negative feedback for running up the score in a game he said "seemed like a scrimmage. The score didn't mean anything. They were throwing the ball into our hands. I wish we had never played."

"We were just in a flow," Dean said. "Nobody really realized it was up to 200 points until the end of the game. And there wasn't like a big celebration afterward."

Ironically, the coach's emphasis entering the game was on defense, a facet of the Lions' game that had displeased him in a loss to Salem the previous night. And, only two of the regulars started. One starter, Thomas Hickson (Woodlawn), did not make the trip.

Sami Wylie made an NCAA-record 21 three-point shots and scored 69 points for the Lions (5-1), who are 10th in the Division III national poll. The 123-point margin was another NCAA record, and Lincoln also set division records for points in a half (104 in the second half), field goals attempted (141) and field goals made (79).

Carter-Bey, who played on a Randallstown state championship team in 2001, said Wylie "was just on and he came up with a crazy number. He didn't even know he had that much."

Afterward, Ohio State-Marion players went through the normal post-game handshakes.

"They just said, 'Nice game.' There wasn't no hard feelings," said Carter-Bey, a defensive specialist and one of the key components of Lincoln's "Chaos Crew," akin to Nolan Richardson's "40 Minutes of Hell" at Arkansas.

The Lions are averaging 115.3 points, and have topped 90 points in five of their first six games.

"They knew our style. There wasn't any disrespect," added Dean, who scored a career-high 33 points and grabbed 13 rebounds in 24 minutes, the most anyone from Lincoln played in the game. A transfer from South Carolina State, Dean is the team's second-leading scorer (23.2 ppg) and leading rebounder (7.8 rpg).

Yuille, whose assistant Brian Winfield is from Baltimore, coached Amateur Athletic Union ball in the city, hence his connection to the talent here. Lincoln is in southern Chester County, about 60 miles northeast of Baltimore. Yuille has a 51-13 record at Lincoln - the alma mater of Thurgood Marshall - in two-plus years.

The Lions return to action today at Ramapo (N.J.) after a week off for exams.