Bumblin' B's

[wilburt]

I certainly have a different perspective about race and D3 athletics than the vast majority of posters on the various d3hoops boards as an alum and former student-athlete at an historically Black College. 

Given the flack (some justified, some not justified) that Lincoln and Fisk have received in recent months (or years - given your perspective), it is no coincidence that Lincoln will be going to D2 and resuming their traditional rivalries in the CIAA.  The CIAA is probably the premier D2 basketball conference in the nation.  It has produced several recent D2 NCAA Basketball Championship teams.  Fisk will likely be going to D2 as well to resume their traditional rivalries in the SIAC.  The scheduling headaches and attitudes of a few are just not worth staying in Division III.   

With all that said, and despite the heated rhetoric at times of AndOne, I think this is a healthy discussion.  It is about time we openly talked about the "elephant in the room."     

[AndOne]

WELL MEN----------

   Since I'm the one everyone is referring to regarding supposedly recially charged
arguments concerning the Lincoln issue----LET ME SET THE RECORD STRAIGHT!

WILBERT---You mentioned how many Karma points you lost over this issue. You are
   not alone. I lost several too---and most of them compliments of none other than   
   you.  You know I didn't smite you as I can't even give/take Karma yet. So---I hope
   you'll just take this for informational purposes only and not as an extention of our
   past differences.

FIRST---Some reiteration is necessary, to wit: (from my post on page 54)

Wilbur----

* NOBODY---myself, Cold Case, wb1313, NEPAFAN, or anyone else EVER introduced
   race in any way, shape, or form into the discussion of Lincoln's abhorant behavior
   While I DID describe their play as "like gangsters," I made it a point
   to explain my meaning by indicating I meant that it didn't seen like enough to get
   OSUM down, but then they also had to beat & kick them after they were down by
   scoring 70 more than OSUM in the 2nd 1/2 after they already led by 53 at halftime

*  YOU in fact interjected race into the discussion by adding the attachment
    concerning the racial incident (http://www.blackathlete.net/artman/publish/
    article_02335.shtml) into one of your early posts.

* YOU further attempted to inflame the issue in one of your replies to me in which
   you stated that I used the word "gangsta" (rather than gangsters as above)
   You changed what I said to feebily attempt to support your race based argument

SECOND---I did NOT use the word "gangstER" as any type of "code" word for
     anything racially based. I am more direct than that and say exactly what I mean.
     If I thought Lincoln's actions we racially motivated or if I was trying to make any
     type of race based argument, I would have said "gangstA" To me--there IS a
     difference in the meaning of the words. I don't care if Lincoln is black, white, or
     green for God's sake!

     OXY BOB----Thank you for your above defense/support in how the word in
                        question was used.

THIRD---MR SAGER--One of the most knowledgable, intelligent, and articulate
     posters anywhere is all wet in his contention that:

"there was some racial tinge to a stray comment made here or there against Lincoln. The unfortunate use of the word "gangster" to describe the play of the Lions against OSUM, f'rinstance. No matter whether it's spelled with an '-er' or an '-a', it's a code word in our society for irresponsible and insensitive behavior by young black males, and like all racial code words it's used as a weapon that comes with plausible deniability (unlike more blatant racial words, such as the 'n'-word). The use of "gangster" in this conversation was ill-advised."

   See #2 above

FORTH---I completely agree with MR SAGER'S statement

   "However, what makes me angry about the use of the race card is its presumptuousness. People who impugn the motives of those who have spoken out against Lincoln's actions against OSUM are making assertions about what lies inside the heads and hearts of the people who are doing the speaking-out -- and unless you know that poster personally, or have observed the poster's mindset over a long period of time, you're simply not qualified to claim that sort of insight into his or her inner being.

Forgive me for tending to give people the benefit of the doubt, or for presuming them innocent until proven guilty, but I'm not going to go along with hanging the collar of "racist" on people who have clearly not earned that odious appellation -- nor am I going to go along with calling their comments racist when it takes a certain amount of reading between the lines, and a lot of presumptuousness, to do so."


FIFTH----

    WILBERT----You DON'T whats in my mind and heart .

    Maybe its just my age, background, culture, whatever, but to me use of the word
    "gangstER" implies just what I explained previously. A gangster is one who is
    simply not satisfied with "killing" the opponent. He has to make a point while
    doing it. It kinda goes back to the old movies---you can't just shoot him with a
    pistol---you have to make a dominating point by pounding 50 bullets into him
    with a sub-machine gun. The sports reference being its not enough to win--you
    have to pound the opponent into dust by continuing to pile up points at a
    record setting pace. 

SIXTH---Two of my good budies are an African-American pre-season D3 All-American
             and an African-American D3 assistant basketball coach. Does anyone, for
             one minute, believe these guys would be my friends id they thought my
             thoughts/actions were in ANY way racially motivated? NOOOOOOOO!

LASTLY--Haven't we ALL had enough discussion on this subject? Some of us feel
             Lincoln's actions were deplorable and others have no problem with how
             they played. We will never agree if we haven't by now. So---lets just AGREE
             TO DISAGREE AND MOVE ON TO OTHER DISCUSSIONS ABOUT D3 SPORTS
             WHICH WE ALL OBVIOUSLY FEEL IS TIME WELL SPENT ON A WONDERFUL
             SUBJECT WE CERTAINLY CARE DEEPLY ABOUT! 

Over and out----AndOne
               

[wilburt]

WELL MEN----------

   Since I'm the one everyone is referring to regarding supposedly recially charged
arguments concerning the Lincoln issue----LET ME SET THE RECORD STRAIGHT!

***
FIFTH----

    WILBERT----You DON'T whats in my mind and heart .

    Maybe its just my age, background, culture, whatever, but to me use of the word
    "gangstER" implies just what I explained previously. A gangster is one who is
    simply not satisfied with "killing" the opponent. He has to make a point while
    doing it. It kinda goes back to the old movies---you can't just shoot him with a
    pistol---you have to make a dominating point by pounding 50 bullets into him
    with a sub-machine gun. The sports reference being its not enough to win--you
    have to pound the opponent into dust by continuing to pile up points at a
    record setting pace. 

SIXTH---Two of my good budies are an African-American pre-season D3 All-American
             and an African-American D3 assistant basketball coach. Does anyone, for
             one minute, believe these guys would be my friends id they thought my
             thoughts/actions were in ANY way racially motivated? NOOOOOOOO!

First, the only way I know what's in your mind AndOne and what is in your heart is by what you say or have written.  You can rationalize your use of the word gangster all you want - but it still has a racial overtone to it.  You certainly weren't talking about an Edward G. Robinson character when you used that term, but rather you were referring to some student-athletes from an historically Black College!

Second, AndOne I was waiting for you to use the "one of my best friends is African-American" line as another possible rationalization for your rhetoric and you have not disappointed me! Give me their names and let me ask them if they were (are) still your friends! Then I'll believe you...

To make up for the past negative karma I will +1 on your Karma total as a sign of peace!

[colincondi]

Wilburt,

You said that Fisk resigned due to pressure from Piedmont, Huntingdon, and Maryville... what about LaGrange?  On the women's side, what about Agnes Scott, Wesleyan, and Spelman?  I'm curious as to why you left them out...

[wilburt]

Wilburt,

You said that Fisk resigned due to pressure from Piedmont, Huntingdon, and Maryville... what about LaGrange?  On the women's side, what about Agnes Scott, Wesleyan, and Spelman?  I'm curious as to why you left them out...

They (LaGrange, Agnes Scott, Wesleyan and Spelman) were left out because (to my knowledge) they were NOT the schools driving the charge to push Fisk out of the GSAC.

[wilburt]

As an aside here's a link to an article on Fisk's lone NBA (LA Lakers) player Kindall Stephens '70.  Stephens is currently the Media Director for Tennessee State University.  For those of you interested in history you may find it interesting...

http://www.tsumeter.com/home/index.cfm?event=displayArticle&uStory_id=0bbbc3eb-9029-4ea7-a515-3cb2a7e1fda4

[Warren Thompson]

You can rationalize your use of the word gangster all you want - but it still has a racial overtone to it.  You certainly weren't talking about an Edward G. Robinson character when you used that term, but rather you were referring to some student-athletes from an historically Black College!

Wilburt:

First of all, I didn't have a dog in the pro-Lincoln/anti-Lincoln catfight [I know, I know ... I'm gratuitously mixing my metaphors] -- and I still don't. And I'm glad I don't: the discussion has moved to a level bordering on the surreal.

However, can you be absolutely certain that the use of the term "gangsters" by certain posters was, in fact, a not-so-thinly-veiled racial epithet? (It could have been, of course, but was it?)

I'll be blunt and likely unpolitic here: is it possible that you saw in these posts what you wanted to see, that you were taking offense when no offense was ever intended? Is it possible that, for whatever reasons, you were actually looking for a [racial] fight? And that no one else was?

I don't have answers to these questions. You alone can answer them. (Nor do you have to answer them to me. Remember, I'm not in this catfight, dog or no dog.  )

BTW you've otherwise made some very good points in your exchanges. Finally, please know that I'm not looking to initiate a "flame war," racial or otherwise, and that I look forward to a thoughtful response.

[njlincolnlion]

At the risk of continuing the Lincoln/OSU-Marion fiasco, calling the Lincoln Coach an Ass, without really knowing him is a bit harsh.  Get to know someone for more than one incidence before labelling him for the rest of his life.  I'm certainly glad my friends forgive me when I've made mistakes, especially since I only know of one perfect person who has ever walked this earth.

[wilburt]

Warren Thompson:

As I noted in a previous post, AndOne went over the top IMHO with his choice of words in his criticism of Lincoln (in addition to calling me a neanderthal).  Now am I not supposed to take offense at being called a neanderthal?   Moreover, no one else used the term "gangster ball" but AndOne.  He ineptly tried to explain why.  AndOne even admitted at one point that if he had used the word "gangsta" then that would be racist (if memory serves me correct).  So what's the difference between the use of  "gangsta" and "gangster" other than spelling Warren?

[Warren Thompson]

Warren Thompson:
So what's the difference between the use of  "gangsta" and "gangster" other than spelling Warren?

Thanks for responding.

As I said, "gangster" certainly could be racist. However, is it necessarily so?

[wilburt]

Warren:

So if you concede that it could be and I took it to be then what's the point of this discussion?  Merely academic?

[Warren Thompson]

Warren:

So if you concede that it could be and I took it to be then what's the point of this discussion?  Merely academic?

You just might be correct. The whole damn thing has become off-the-wall. Perhaps we ought merely to end it.

Meanwhile, I'll go pet my dog, imaginary as he is, and remind him again to stay out of catfights. 

[wilburt]

Thanks for the discussion Warren.  I don't have any pets (imaginary or real).  So I have to tell the neighbor's dog (who is VERY real) and remind him (or is it a her?) to stay out of catfights as well.

[AndOne]

At the risk of continuing the Lincoln/OSU-Marion fiasco, calling the Lincoln Coach an Ass, without really knowing him is a bit harsh.  Get to know someone for more than one incidence before labelling him for the rest of his life.  I'm certainly glad my friends forgive me when I've made mistakes, especially since I only know of one perfect person who has ever walked this earth.

NJ---

The Lincoln coach might not be an ass, but he certainly acted like one when he didn't play his worst 5 players the entire 2nd half and didn't tell the players that played to use the whole 35 second clock and not to shoot any threes. This was, at minimum a blatant display of unsportsmanlike conduct, and disrespecting an opponent. However, his strongest demonstration of acting like a behind may have come when he attempted to rationalize his team's behavior by making a statement something to the effect that nobody should take exception to how Linciln played because, after all, the guys had just had to endure a 5 hour bus ride and needed a release after the long ride.

Also---don't forget Lincoln's play was so unsportsmanlike and disrespectful that the Lincoln AD issused a public apology by means of a press release. Do you think the AD would go to such great length to distance the school from the coach's/team's actions if the coach hadn't acted EXACTLY like an ass?

Lastly---As far a labeling someone-----maybe you ought to tell your friend Wilbert that labeling someone as a racist is one of the most terrible and lowest things you can call a person. I'd rather be an ass any day! Yet Wilbert, did exactly that. He stated I must be racist because HE took my use of the word gangstERs to be racist.

This was despite my going to great lengths to explain exactly what I meant by the use of the word.

Call me stupid but at the time I said Lincoln played like gangsters, I didn't even know the school is a predominately or maybe entirely black university. Why would I know this?---I'm in the Midwest and Lincoln is in NJ. Given this, there couldn't be any racial intent or implication in saying they played like gangsters. I was strictly referring to Lincoln's behavior in the OSUM game. I couldn't care if they were black, white, or green! 

At the least, Wilbert called me a liar when he said my explanation of how I meant the word was just an attempt to rationalize my use of it, and especially when he said he didn't believe I have black friends by saying "I was waiting for you to say that." So---in your buddy Wilbert's humble (and absolutely wrong) opinion I am at best a liar, and at worst a racist. Talk about labeling. Talk to Wilbert about that!











   

[colincondi]

Wilburt is very good at labeling and jumping to conclusions without knowing someone or without knowing all the facts of a situation...  feel free to check out the GSAC discussion of late May/early June...  He has some really great posts, loves his university deeply, and is obviously an intelligent man, but he does tend to jump to conclusions rather freely when race is the issue... I wish he were a little less cynical about people in general...