Bumblin' B's

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

Well of course not for Hope, but for most everyone else it's a great improvement.  Weren't you aware that the whole NCAA structure exists to drive the Hope faithful to depression and insanity?


It's those reserved seats... we're all just so jealous.

[Mr. Ypsi]

Considering that Carthage won, would you really WANT it in-region?!

[Pat Coleman]

For Hope.......

A game vs Mississippi College over 1,000 miles away is in-region for Hope.

A game vs Carthage 220 miles away is NOT.


This is NOT an improvement.

like I said don't bring it up.........

Every map has arbitrary boundaries somewhere. You're asking for perfection, which won't exist in our lifetime.

[zonescantstopme]

Bumblin B's is that for Pool B

[Titan Q]

For Hope.......

A game vs Mississippi College over 1,000 miles away is in-region for Hope.

A game vs Carthage 220 miles away is NOT.


This is NOT an improvement.

like I said don't bring it up.........

Every map has arbitrary boundaries somewhere. You're asking for perfection, which won't exist in our lifetime.

Yes, but why do we need boundaries and "in-region" and "out-of-region" games?  If Wheaton (Wheaton, Illinois) vs Whitworth (Spokane, Washington) is now in-region and Hope (Holland, Michigan) vs Mississippi College (Clinton, Mississippi) is too, why not just make all Division III vs Division III games count? 

I kind of understood the logic before in emphasizing regional play, which was basically to minimize travel.  But now that teams can travel 1000+ miles and play an in-region game, it seems that explanation doesn't hold water any longer.  Illinois Wesleyan is traveling to Los Angeles in December 2007 to play Occidental in an in-region game.

Don't get me wrong -- I am glad for the rule change and expansion of in-region definition.  But for Wheaton vs Calvin (202 miles) to not count, yet Wheaton vs Whitworth does makes the whole process seem sillier than it did before.

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

That's true; it doesn't make much sense in the East either, as states are closer to one another, but are also arbitrarily excluded from in-region status by their geographical region.

[AndOne]

IMHO it would NEVER make sense to say a game where teams are 200 miles apart is not in-region, but one where the contestants are separated by 1000 miles is.   

Also----couldn't in-region vs non-region have a negative impact on tournaments across the country. Part of the attraction is to have teams from different parts of the country that your team would never otherwise see.

Possibe solutions:

1. As Titan Q suggests---If its D3 vs D3---count it!

2. If a mile limit is absolutely necessary----make it something like 500 miles to avoid situations where a game just 200 miles away isn't "regional"

3. If you go with option 2, add an exclusion for holiday season tournaments

It would be interesting to hear any other thoughts too!

[Pat Coleman]

For Hope.......

A game vs Mississippi College over 1,000 miles away is in-region for Hope.

A game vs Carthage 220 miles away is NOT.


This is NOT an improvement.

like I said don't bring it up.........

Every map has arbitrary boundaries somewhere. You're asking for perfection, which won't exist in our lifetime.

Yes, but why do we need boundaries and "in-region" and "out-of-region" games?  If Wheaton (Wheaton, Illinois) vs Whitworth (Spokane, Washington) is now in-region and Hope (Holland, Michigan) vs Mississippi College (Clinton, Mississippi) is too, why not just make all Division III vs Division III games count? 

I kind of understood the logic before in emphasizing regional play, which was basically to minimize travel.  But now that teams can travel 1000+ miles and play an in-region game, it seems that explanation doesn't hold water any longer.  Illinois Wesleyan is traveling to Los Angeles in December 2007 to play Occidental in an in-region game.

Don't get me wrong -- I am glad for the rule change and expansion of in-region definition.  But for Wheaton vs Calvin (202 miles) to not count, yet Wheaton vs Whitworth does makes the whole process seem sillier than it did before.

Why is it so wrong for Illinois Wesleyan/Occidental to be a regional game under the new definition but it was apparently OK for UW-Oshkosh/Occidental (longer trip) to be a regional game under the old definition?

I agree on the All-of-DIII-vs-All-of-DIII argument but I am willing to accept this interim step, which DOES make things better.

[Ralph Turner]

I will even propose the use of non-region games to let your team see where it is early in the season and not risk seeding consequences.

If an OAC to see how strong his team was, he could schedule a tourney vs some WIAC schools.

The game would fall into the secondary criteria, if the committee wanted to use it.  I can see the value to this use of non-region games inside D3 as opposed to scheudling a D2 or an NAIA.

Hope had a good game that did not imapct its in-region record.

[Ralph Turner]

As the weaker teams that comprised Pool B in the first few years of its existence have moved into Pool A conferences, Pool B has gotten stronger.


In 2006 the Pool B teams compiled these results.

Maryville TN defeated Trinity TX 83-64, then lost to MissCollege 69-51.

Bethany WV* lost to Transylvania 75-56.

Villa Julie** defeated Baruch 86-71 and lost to WPU 72-48.

Lincoln defeated CNU 102-96, Messiah 100-80 and lost to National Champion VWC 72-71.

*Bethany and Pres AC move to Pool A in 2007-08.

**Villa Julie is from the North Eastern Athletic Conference which is moving to Pool A in the 2006-07.  Villa Julie is moving to the Capital AC next year.

Pool B was 4-4 last year.

[sac]

Nice to see a sarcastic smart mouthed remark can spark a little conversation.

I only have two problems with the current setup.

1) In-region and non-region games.  This is just silly, I used Hope as an example because its what I'm familiar with.  First the NCAA is trying to dictate who you can and can't play which I think is wrong in and of itself, another debate for another day.

Second the fact that a game vs a team 1000 miles away or more counts more than a game vs a team 220 miles away is just ridiculous.


2)  QOWI makes an assumption that a win vs an 8-4 team in Region A is the same as a win vs an 8-4 team in Region B.  Thats simply not the case.  Whats more absurb is you could beat both of those teams and only one would count.



I'm with Q on this, all D3 games should count if they're going to use a point system to compare teams.

[Ralph Turner]

Nice to see a sarcastic smart mouthed remark can spark a little conversation.

I only have two problems with the current setup.

1) In-region and non-region games.  This is just silly, I used Hope as an example because its what I'm familiar with.  First the NCAA is trying to dictate who you can and can't play which I think is wrong in and of itself, another debate for another day.

Second the fact that a game vs a team 1000 miles away or more counts more than a game vs a team 220 miles away is just ridiculous.


2)  QOWI makes an assumption that a win vs an 8-4 team in Region A is the same as a win vs an 8-4 team in Region B.  Thats simply not the case.  Whats more absurb is you could beat both of those teams and only one would count.



I'm with Q on this, all D3 games should count if they're going to use a point system to compare teams.

It is like that across all regions and all sports.  To change that would be a huge change in philosophy of athletics at D3.

I would like one additional (minor) rule change that would be in keeping with the "keep it local" philosophy, i.e., amend the 200 mile radius rule to allow any game played in a venue that within 200 miles of the campus.

Calvin plays in a tourney at North Park, 188 miles.  Any opponent that is in-region for that venue can play vs Calvin, even UW-SP or Pomona-Pitzer.

Calvin to NPU

North Park is an eligible Adminstative Region #4 venue, but is in the 200-mile radius for Calvin in Grand Rapids, MI.  Thus one can administer that case in the database and the Boolean programming should not be to hard.

[Ralph Turner]

Austin College 70 UDallas 68.  UDallas falls to 5-3 in-region and plays DePauw (another South Region team) after Christmas.

[Gregory Sager]

Well of course not for Hope, but for most everyone else it's a great improvement.  Weren't you aware that the whole NCAA structure exists to drive the Hope faithful to depression and insanity?


It's those reserved seats... we're all just so jealous.

No, I think it's the condiments.

Actually, the explanation is probably simpler than that. There's a rampant case of peninsulaphobia in the hallways of the NCAA. Or mittenphobia.

Nice to see a sarcastic smart mouthed remark can spark a little conversation.

I only have two problems with the current setup.

1) In-region and non-region games.  This is just silly, I used Hope as an example because its what I'm familiar with.  First the NCAA is trying to dictate who you can and can't play which I think is wrong in and of itself, another debate for another day.

Second the fact that a game vs a team 1000 miles away or more counts more than a game vs a team 220 miles away is just ridiculous.


2)  QOWI makes an assumption that a win vs an 8-4 team in Region A is the same as a win vs an 8-4 team in Region B.  Thats simply not the case.  Whats more absurb is you could beat both of those teams and only one would count.



I'm with Q on this, all D3 games should count if they're going to use a point system to compare teams.

It is like that across all regions and all sports.  To change that would be a huge change in philosophy of athletics at D3.

I would like one additional (minor) rule change that would be in keeping with the "keep it local" philosophy, i.e., amend the 200 mile radius rule to allow any game played in a venue that within 200 miles of the campus.

Calvin plays in a tourney at North Park, 188 miles.  Any opponent that is in-region for that venue can play vs Calvin, even UW-SP or Pomona-Pitzer.

Calvin to NPU

North Park is an eligible Adminstative Region #4 venue, but is in the 200-mile radius for Calvin in Grand Rapids, MI.  Thus one can administer that case in the database and the Boolean programming should not be to hard.

Excellent idea, Ralph. But, as usual, your visionary thinking will only serve to make us angrier towards D3's well-meaning but bungled attempts to work out its regionalist philosophy.

[Ralph Turner]

Greg, then we have boiled this done to a "permissive regionalist" philosophy versus a "national" philosophy.

This may be easier to find examples in football.

We had UMHB play UWW in the 9th week of the season.  That game was probably scheduled before the "Adminsitrative  region" rule change.  The same might be said for Linfield versus HSU.  I don't know if those games occur in 3 years, when the coaches have had a chance to figure out the rules implications and applications by the championship committee.  I would rather see a Rowan UMHB that does not count in the primary criteria, than a Rowan-Iona/UMHB-(NAIA) Belhaven pairing on the same weekend.

In those parts of the country where there are ample D3 opponents, this rule seems weird.  In the more isolated sections or in cases of very dominant teams that need to fill a schedule with games, I can see its utility.