Top 25 discussion

[andrewf]

the polls out..

[eaglemaniac]

Interesting that only 54 votes separate #'s 4-11 while the 3rd ranked team is some 77 votes higher than the 4th ranked team.  Mary Washington is the only team other than S. Maine to receive multiple 1st place votes.

[bbald eagle]

Maybe you should get 3 new voters

You'd be surprised how hard it is to find good voters who never play road games on Mondays.

I'm willing to cut people some slack.

I hear ya....... Tough to find good people these days .

Check out the USA TODAY ESPN DIVISION III TOP 25 COACHES' POLL, the WBCA's Week Seven Poll: January 17, 2006

http://www.wbca.org/DIIICoachesPoll.asp

That poll uses only 8 voters.  Check the numbers: only 5 first place votes, and the total number of points matches to 5 not 8 voters.  3 out of 8 didn't vote!  When 37.5% of the voters don't participate, it ought to be pretty hard to sell the poll as definitive! 

Kudos to D3hoops!

[Ralph Turner]

Great pick-up, bbald eagle!

One karma point!

[feces monkey]

Only three voters and WBCA has a more accurate poll...

Perhaps if they co-opted a couple more SIDs they could get real ranking...

[Pat Coleman]

If they're more accurate, why did it take them so long to get back to Southern Maine being No. 1?

[feces monkey]

The d3hoops pollster's love affair with Southern Maine is a long and established one.

To note:

2004, Southern Maine starts at No. 2, moves to No. 17 after losing their only games against legit competition, and then slowly move back up by lording over the pitiful LEC, getting a first place vote (!) four weeks later. Climb all the way back in the top 5, with the understanding (from Pat Coleman) that one of the better players was injured in the key losses and this fact should be reflected in the poll.

2005, Bates starts at No. 6, loses several tough games with TWO key players injured and drop completely out of the poll. Clearly they are coming back with the two best players returning, and beating a Top 5 Bowdoin team. Result: receiving votes. Where is the reflection of the injuries? Why not the same treatment. This is clearly a Top 25 team.

2005, USM loses to a lightly regarded Salem State team and still manages to maintain the top spot in the poll despite the presence of several undefeated teams. Reasons? Too cold? Balls not pumped up enough?

If USM was 17-0 and loses one, sure, keep them No. 1. But that early in the season? Polls come out weekly to reflect current results, it should be fluid. D3hoops polls appear to be more based on what the pollsters think will eventually pan out at the end of the season. Either that, or it is based on past performance. Both marginalize a poll in my view.

Perhaps d3hoops needs to come out with two polls -- one in the preseason and then again heading into the tournament. That will allow the voters to do what they do: vote what they feel will eventually happen and not what is actually taking place from week-to-week.

[Pat Coleman]

I think the Bates thing is only beginning to run its course. You are remarkably impatient. We only this past week got any evidence whatsoever that Bates was back to form, right? And if I'm not mistaken, Bates' missing players did indeed play against Simpson and Bates still lost.

There's a big difference between the two games that Southern Maine lost last season and the FIVE games that Bates lost this year. Odd how you managed to try to gloss over that.

It's a shame that this love affair with Southern Maine was so misplaced. Imagine, they only made the final four. We were so, SO wrong. It is amazing that a team that was so horrible managed to get all the way to Virginia Beach. How did that happen?

I agree whole-heartedly that Bates is a Top 25 team. They did get the 28th-most points in the poll. They're pretty close. We will continue to educate the voters on this point, the point we mentioned in the blog last weekend. And we have votes for Bates, unlike your "more accurate" WBCA poll. We know what's going on.

Your analysis is dangerously close to reflecting your name. Drop the bias and look at it objectively for a second.

[sunny]

Monkey,

You are overreaching by putting all of the voters into the same bunch.  In the three weeks following Southern Maine's loss and before the loss by Brandeis, Southern Maine was #1 in the poll with 6, 6, and 11 of 25 first-place votes, respectively.  That means that in all three of those weeks, more voters had them not ranked #1 than did.

If you look at the point totals in weeks four, five, and six, there was no clear-cut #1.  Southern Maine just barely took the top spot in all three weeks and actually received fewer #1 votes than Wash U. in two of those weeks.  It's not as if the voters, as a group, were overwhelmingly convinced that Southern Maine was #1 right after they lost.

Even now, after their main competitors for #1 votes the past few weeks (Wash U, George Fox, and Brandeis) have all lost, there are four voters not voting Southern Maine #1.

There is no pollster conspiracy in favor of Southern Maine.

[feces monkey]

First, Sunny,

Point taken. Perhaps I painted with too broad a brush to impugn all of the voters. However, as there is no transparency with any of the polls, it's difficult to not assess the the pollsters as a single entity.

There's a big difference between the two games that Southern Maine lost last season and the FIVE games that Bates lost this year. Odd how you managed to try to gloss over that.

As is the strength of schedule. But I don't want to put too much on your plate at one time.

It's a shame that this love affair with Southern Maine was so misplaced. Imagine, they only made the final four. We were so, SO wrong. It is amazing that a team that was so horrible managed to get all the way to Virginia Beach. How did that happen?

This would fall under the guise of past achievements, which, as I pointed out in my last post, is a poor way for a poll to conduct itself midseason when results are established. Let me know if I'm going to fast.

We know what's going on.

(Giggling)

Your analysis is dangerously close to reflecting your name. Drop the bias and look at it objectively for a second.

Your need to resort to veiled insults lets me know I've hit a nerve, and that is satisfaction enough. I have a bias, perhaps, against one team. D3hoops, apparently, has a bias against all the rest.

[Ralph Turner]

Top 25 teams who have lost this week, thru Jan 20th:

Monday

#21 Richard Stockton 62-71 to DeSales

Tuesday

#6 Wheaton IL 60-63 to IWU

Wednesday

#9 Capital 65-68 to Wilmington
#16 Moravian 76-80 (1OT) to Widener

Friday

#2 Wash StL 61-63 to #18 NYU
#4 George Fox 84-85 (1OT) to #25 Pac Luth
#20 Chicago 85-93 (OT) to #7 Brandeis

[Pat Coleman]

That's true about the lack of transaprency, but that is my choice and it stems from experiences I have had voting on other polls. I don't want the voters subjected to lobbying from coaches and fans, so I am the front man for the poll and I take the heat.

[Mr. Ypsi]

Top 25 teams who have lost this week, thru Jan 20th:

Monday

#21 Richard Stockton 62-71 to DeSales

Tuesday

#6 Wheaton IL 60-63 to IWU

Wednesday

#9 Capital 65-68 to Wilmington
#16 Moravian 76-80 (1OT) to Widener

Friday

#2 Wash StL 61-63 to #18 NYU
#4 George Fox 84-85 (1OT) to #25 Pac Luth
#20 Chicago 85-93 (OT) to #7 Brandeis

In the 'glass half-full vs. half-empty' category, you could also note that:

Friday:

#18 NYU beat #2 WashU
#25 Pac Lu beat #4 George Fox
#  7 Brandeis beat #20 Chicago

and on earlier days:

(#31) Wilmington beat #9 Capital
11-5 IWU beat #6 Wheaton
11-5 Widener beat #16 Moravian
9-6 DeSales beat #21 Richard Stockton

Teams drop out of polls, but they have to be replaced by SOMEONE!  With the possible exception of DeSales (where both teams are likely to disappear from the poll), the winners may well be in NEXT weeks poll (or at least receiving votes).

[Ralph Turner]

Top 25 teams who have lost this week, thru Jan 20th:

Monday

#21 Richard Stockton 62-71 to DeSales

Tuesday

#6 Wheaton IL 60-63 to IWU

Wednesday

#9 Capital 65-68 to Wilmington
#16 Moravian 76-80 (1OT) to Widener

Friday

#2 Wash StL 61-63 to #18 NYU
#4 George Fox 84-85 (1OT) to #25 Pac Luth
#20 Chicago 85-93 (OT) to #7 Brandeis

In the 'glass half-full vs. half-empty' category, you could also note that:

Friday:

#18 NYU beat #2 WashU
#25 Pac Lu beat #4 George Fox
#  7 Brandeis beat #20 Chicago

and on earlier days:

(#31) Wilmington beat #9 Capital
11-5 IWU beat #6 Wheaton
11-5 Widener beat #16 Moravian
9-6 DeSales beat #21 Richard Stockton

Teams drop out of polls, but they have to be replaced by SOMEONE!  With the possible exception of DeSales (where both teams are likely to disappear from the poll), the winners may well be in NEXT weeks poll (or at least receiving votes).

Great response!

[Ralph Turner]

Top 25 teams who have lost this week, thru Jan 21st  :

Monday

#21 Richard Stockton 62-71 to DeSales

Tuesday

#6 Wheaton IL 60-63 to IWU

Wednesday

#9 Capital 65-68 to Wilmington
#16 Moravian 76-80 (1OT) to Widener

Friday

#2 Wash StL 61-63 to #18 NYU
#4 George Fox 84-85 (1OT) to #25 Pac Luth
#20 Chicago 85-93 (OT) to #7 Brandeis

Saturday

#16 Moravian 49, E'town 69