Top 25 discussion

[Flying Dutch Fan]

HOPEfully thirs time is the charm, as for the third day in a row Hoep is scheduled to play Trine tonight in Angola (Indiana).  Postponed the last 2 days due to the weather, there should be no reason for the game not to happen tonight.

[Darryl Nester]

How They Fared -- Final report for December 13

As usual, scores in italics were those not posted to d3sports.  Let me know if you spot any mistakes.

Top 25

Rank	Pts	Team	W-L	Results
#1	611	Illinois Wesleyan	8-0	def. St. Francis (Ill.), 88-64
#2	590	Amherst	8-0	def. #17 Emmanuel, 85-38; def. Eastern Connecticut, 53-34
#3	588	Hope	7-0	def. Trine, 59-36; def. Olivet, 79-50
#4	544	Washington U.	6-1	def. Fontbonne, 96-53
#5	513	Bowdoin	7-0	def. Husson, 79-58; def. Colby-Sawyer, 60-40
#6	489	Howard Payne	7-0	def. Sul Ross State, 89-37
#7	475	Kean	6-1	def. T#38 DeSales, 71-59
#8	413	Trinity (Texas)	5-0	IDLE
#9	386	Marymount	7-0	def. St. Elizabeth, 51-23
#10	359	Thomas More	7-0	def. Westminster (Pa.), 78-55
#11	336	UW-Whitewater	7-1	def. #24 UW-Stevens Point, 76-71; def. UW-Superior, 86-65
#12	313	Moravian	6-2	LOST to #14 Muhlenberg, 71-84; def. Albright, 74-65
#13	279	Scranton	5-1	IDLE
#14	230	Muhlenberg	7-1	def. #12 Moravian, 84-71; def. Bryn Mawr, 74-48; def. Franklin and Marshall, 58-39
#15	221	Messiah	8-0	def. Johns Hopkins, 65-43; def. Lehman, 70-38; def. T#38 DeSales, 60-52
#16	190	William Paterson	9-0	def. Merchant Marine, 73-44; def. New Jersey, 62-56
#17	185	Emmanuel	6-1	LOST at #2 Amherst, 38-85
#18	171	George Fox	4-2	IDLE
#19	145	Tufts	8-1	def. Wheaton (Mass.), 80-71; def. Maine Maritime, 61-43; def. Regis (Mass.), 78-56
#20	124	Carthage	6-1	LOST at Robert Morris-Chi., 57-59
#21	102	Chicago	5-2	IDLE
#22	83	Brandeis	6-2	IDLE
#23	82	UW-River Falls	8-0	def. UW-Eau Claire, 70-59; def. UW-Oshkosh, 57-56
#24	75	UW-Stevens Point	6-3	LOST to #11 UW-Whitewater, 71-76; def. Luther, 79-51
#25	73	St. Norbert	5-1	IDLE

Others receiving votes

Rank	Pts	Team	W-L	Results
#26	62	Cal Lutheran	5-0	IDLE
T#27	56	Randolph-Macon	4-1	IDLE
T#27	56	Texas-Dallas	5-2	IDLE
#29	53	Capital	5-1	def. Ohio Northern, 62-55; def. Baldwin-Wallace, 74-70 OT
#30	50	Simpson	6-1	def. Grand View, 74-64
#31	48	Mount Union	8-0	def. John Carroll, 83-72; def. Ohio Northern, 78-76 OT
#32	44	Roanoke	6-0	IDLE
T#33	30	Calvin	9-1	def. St. Mary's (Ind.), 64-58; def. Kalamazoo, 78-35
T#33	30	Washington and Jefferson	7-1	def. Ohio Wesleyan, 65-54; def. Thiel, 67-42
#35	29	Puget Sound	5-1	def. St. Martin's, 70-60
#36	27	St. Benedict	6-1	def. St. Catherine's, 88-63; def. Macalester, 75-65
#37	13	UW-Stout	6-4	def. UW-La Crosse, 68-65; def. UW-Eau Claire, 67-66
T#38	11	DeSales	4-5	LOST to #7 Kean, 59-71; def. Gwynedd-Mercy, 90-89 OT; LOST at #15 Messiah, 52-60
T#38	11	Mary Washington	5-1	IDLE
#40	6	Lewis and Clark	6-2	IDLE
#41	5	DePauw	5-3	def. Robert Morris-S'fiel, 90-44
T#42	4	Keene State	5-2	LOST at T#44 Southern Maine, 46-61
T#42	4	Nazareth	5-1	IDLE
T#44	2	Case Western Reserve	6-1	def. Oberlin, 71-60
T#44	2	Christopher Newport	6-0	def. Meredith, 88-62
T#44	2	Southern Maine	6-3	def. Salem State, 58-53; def. T#42 Keene State, 61-46
T#47	1	Babson	7-2	LOST to Salem State, 69-79; def. MIT, 75-30; def. Worcester Polytech, 68-58
T#47	1	New Paltz State	5-1	IDLE
T#47	1	Rochester	6-2	def. William Smith, 69-61; def. Union, 63-57

[Pat Coleman]

Just one game in itals. We're getting somewhere.

[Ralph Turner]

Just one game in itals. We're getting somewhere.

Simpson vs Grand View.  Those schools are less than 20 miles apart.

IMHO, not a bad game to schedule around this time of the semester.

[Pat Coleman]

Now just working on the other 17 regional games from this past week that aren't in the system. And after that maybe the 10 or so non-regional games.

[Ralph Turner]

Now just working on the other 17 regional games from this past week that aren't in the system. And after that maybe the 10 or so non-regional games.

Thanks for all that you do.

(I am sure that you miss Patrick Abegg in these matters.  Please let me/us know how we can help.)

[d3 new england fan]

Brandeis is the top 25 after Emmanuel beat them easily? I understand Emmanuel then got waxed by Amherst but Amherst is THAT GOOD and Emmanuel played aweful for a game.

Even Tufts is suspect....other than #12 and her outside shooting, they didn't look too good recently....Emmanuel with their guard play and pure athletes will likely run them off the court.

Amherst has a strong chance to make a deep tournament run. Good luck to them this season.

[d3 new england fan]

Just saw 2 voting points for southern maine....after they got smoked by western conn and Univ. of New England?

Who's voting for the good old days and not the new reality?

[Laserty]

I didn't quite agree either. Amherst played the game of their season against Emmanuel. I didn't foresee that large of a dip. What about Hope. They have been untested for the most part thus far. Not trying to say they don't deserve to be #3, with 6 first place votes. Can't wait to see them play Chicago.

Brandeis is the top 25 after Emmanuel beat them easily? I understand Emmanuel then got waxed by Amherst but Amherst is THAT GOOD and Emmanuel played aweful for a game.

Even Tufts is suspect....other than #12 and her outside shooting, they didn't look too good recently....Emmanuel with their guard play and pure athletes will likely run them off the court.

Amherst has a strong chance to make a deep tournament run. Good luck to them this season.

[Darryl Nester]

How They Fared -- Midweek End-Of-The-Week report

There having been no discussion here since the midweek report, I'll simply replace it with the final report (although I realize that means this won't show up as a a new post).  Unposted scores in italics, as usual.

Top 25

Rank	Pts	Team	W-L	Results
#1	611	Illinois Wesleyan	8-0	IDLE
#2	591	Amherst	9-0	def. Springfield, 69-29
#3	588	Hope	10-0	def. Finlandia, 102-44; def. #19 Chicago, 70-51
#4	545	Washington U.	8-1	def. North Park, 59-45; def. Hanover, 69-55
#5	514	Bowdoin	7-0	IDLE
#6	487	Howard Payne	7-1	LOST at Louisiana College, 54-69
#7	479	Kean	8-1	def. #12 Scranton, 70-45; def. #38 Mary Washington, 78-63
#8	419	Trinity (Texas)	6-1	def. Beloit, 57-42; LOST to (n) #12 Scranton, 49-65
#9	398	Marymount	9-0	def. Adrian, 66-58; def. North Central (Ill.), 61-42
#10	367	Thomas More	8-0	def. Wittenberg, 70-55
#11	349	UW-Whitewater	8-2	LOST to (n) #12 Scranton, 61-69; def. Southwestern, 73-51
#12	319	Scranton	7-2	LOST to #7 Kean, 45-70; def. #11 UW-Whitewater, 69-61; def. #8 Trinity (Texas), 65-49
#13	276	Muhlenberg	7-1	IDLE
#14	274	Messiah	8-0	IDLE
#15	227	William Paterson	10-0	def. Lehman, 74-54
#16	184	Tufts	8-1	IDLE
#17	149	Moravian	6-2	IDLE
#18	147	George Fox	6-2	def. William Carey @ Honolulu, Hawai'i, 61-41; def. Chaminade @ Honolulu, HI, 57-39
#19	146	Chicago	7-3	def. North Central (Ill.), 71-48; def. Lake Forest, 71-54; LOST to (n) #3 Hope, 51-70
#20	145	UW-River Falls	9-0	def. Northwestern (Minn.), 49-37
#21	99	St. Norbert	5-1	IDLE
#22	93	Brandeis	6-2	IDLE
#23	88	Cal Lutheran	6-1	def. UC Santa Cruz, 63-49; LOST to #33 Puget Sound, 48-56
#24	80	Carthage	7-1	def. Concordia (Wis.), 74-62
#25	71	Mount Union	9-0	def. Heidelberg, 74-49

Others receiving votes

Rank	Pts	Team	W-L	Results
#26	65	Capital	6-1	def. Muskingum, 74-56
T#27	54	Calvin	10-1	def. Olivet, 78-54
T#27	54	Simpson	7-1	def. Bethel, 69-37
#29	52	Emmanuel	6-1	IDLE
#30	49	Randolph-Macon	4-1	IDLE
#31	45	Roanoke	6-1	LOST to Ferrum, 55-70
#32	35	Texas-Dallas	6-2	def. McMurry, 80-71
#33	34	Puget Sound	7-1	def. Chapman, 64-59; def. #23 Cal Lutheran, 56-48
#34	25	St. Benedict	6-1	IDLE
#35	22	UW-Stevens Point	6-3	IDLE
#36	20	Washington and Jefferson	7-1	IDLE
#37	7	Lewis and Clark	6-2	IDLE
#38	6	Mary Washington	5-2	LOST at #7 Kean, 63-78
#39	5	Gettysburg	8-0	IDLE
T#40	2	Case Western Reserve	7-1	def. Hiram, 85-56
T#40	2	Southern Maine	6-3	IDLE
T#42	1	Christopher Newport	8-0	def. Virginia Wesleyan, 74-61; def. Wesley, 77-66
T#42	1	New Paltz State	5-1	IDLE

[Darryl Nester]

How They Fared

Top 25

Rank	Pts	Team	W-L	Results
#1	617	Illinois Wesleyan	11-0	def. La Verne, 54-40; def. Redlands, 79-71; def. #14 UW-Whitewater, 87-58
#2	597	Amherst	10-0	def. Lehman, 80-37
#3	570	Washington U.	9-1	def. Ripon, 80-56
#4	533	Bowdoin	9-0	def. Skidmore, 78-47; def. Salve Regina, 73-46
#5	526	Kean	13-1	def. Delaware Valley, 85-41; def. Misericordia, 72-53; def. Lycoming, 76-52
#6	467	Hope	10-1	def. Piedmont, 87-57
#7	442	Marymount	12-0	def. New Jersey, 58-37; def. Elmira, 69-59; def. Montclair State, 65-58
#8	407	Thomas More	10-1	LOST to (n) Trinity (Conn.), 53-60; def. Geneva, 70-57
#9	370	Scranton	7-2	IDLE
#10	357	Messiah	9-1	def. UC Santa Cruz, 68-48; LOST to (n) #29 Emmanuel, 56-60
#11	339	Muhlenberg	7-1	IDLE
#12	275	Trinity (Texas)	8-3	LOST to UW-Stout, 67-82; LOST to Austin, 49-74; def. Colorado College, 92-82
#13	273	William Paterson	13-0	def. Union, 69-50; def. Susquehanna, 69-44
#14	261	UW-Whitewater	9-3	def. Edgewood, 67-64; LOST to #1 Illinois Wesleyan, 58-87
#15	244	Carthage	10-1	def. Oglethorpe, 88-66
#16	218	George Fox	8-2	def. Western Ore., 59-53; def. #28 Puget Sound, 65-62 OT
#17	208	Tufts	10-1	def. Concordia (Wis.), 70-53
#18	204	UW-River Falls	12-0	def. #35 Washington and Jefferson, 63-59; def. St. Scholastica, 70-31
#19	184	Moravian	9-2	def. Neumann, 88-80; def. Cedar Crest, 92-43; def. Gwynedd-Mercy, 80-73
#20	119	Mount Union	12-0	def. Alfred, 65-58; def. Nazareth, 72-50; def. #41 Case Western Reserve, 77-57
#21	107	Calvin	11-1	IDLE
#22	99	Chicago	8-3	def. Milwaukee Engineering, 61-42
#23	98	St. Norbert	6-2	def. UW-Platteville, 61-58; LOST at Wartburg, 50-53
#24	91	Randolph-Macon	5-2	LOST at #40 Christopher Newport, 67-78; def. Washington and Lee, 70-50
#25	71	Louisiana College	8-1	def. Wiley, 69-53

Others receiving votes

Rank	Pts	Team	W-L	Results
#26	67	Howard Payne	9-2	def. #37 Cal Lutheran, 70-59; def. UC Santa Cruz, 75-51
#27	55	Brandeis	7-2	def. Regis (Mass.), 66-55
#28	44	Puget Sound	9-2	def. UW-Eau Claire, 49-36; LOST at #16 George Fox, 62-65 OT; def. Linfield, 62-61
#29	43	Emmanuel	8-1	def. North Park, 80-67; def. #10 Messiah, 60-56
#30	40	UW-Stevens Point	8-3	def. Mary Washington, 54-52
#31	34	Simpson	9-2	def. #36 Capital, 81-53; def. Bridgewater State, 84-46
#32	31	St. Benedict	7-1	def. St. Mary's (Minn.), 64-41
#33	24	Gettysburg	10-0	def. Neumann, 59-55; def. Alvernia, 79-72
#34	22	Texas-Dallas	7-3	def. Occidental, 71-63; LOST at Chapman, 52-69
#35	20	Washington and Jefferson	8-2	LOST to (n) #18 UW-River Falls, 59-63; def. SUNY-Purchase, 59-51
#36	15	Capital	7-4	LOST to (n) #31 Simpson, 53-81; LOST at Defiance, 61-75
#37	14	Cal Lutheran	7-2	LOST to #26 Howard Payne, 59-70; def. North Park, 60-49
#38	11	Mississippi College	10-1	def. Hendrix, 72-62; def. Millsaps, 70-47
#39	10	Lewis and Clark	8-3	def. Whitman, 53-38; def. Whitworth, 67-63
#40	8	Christopher Newport	10-0	def. #24 Randolph-Macon, 78-67; def. Salisbury, 87-62
#41	5	Case Western Reserve	9-2	def. Wilmington, 68-66; def. Wittenberg, 60-58; LOST at #20 Mount Union, 57-77
#42	3	Southern Maine	7-3	def. Maine-Presque Isle, 72-40
T#43	1	New Paltz State	5-3	LOST to (n) Susquehanna, 55-73; LOST to (n) Union, 56-64
T#43	1	Roanoke	7-1	def. Meredith, 70-47

[d3 new england fan]

Messiah ahead of Emmanuel when Emmanuel beat them head to head on a neutral floor?

Emmanuel has played all comers this year and took a tough loss against Amherst who could be a strong Final Four entry.

Some of the rankings this year have looked so out of place.

[Erm Schmigget]

Messiah ahead of Emmanuel when Emmanuel beat them head to head on a neutral floor?

Emmanuel has played all comers this year and took a tough loss against Amherst who could be a strong Final Four entry.

Some of the rankings this year have looked so out of place.

The rankings are from last week, before the Messiah/Emmanuel game.  You will probably see Emmanuel rise some and Messiah fall a bit in the next poll.  The same thing happened when Carthage beat Hope--also on a neutral floor.  Hope fell 3 spots in the poll and Carthage rose 9, but Hope is still ranked higher.  Keep in mind, too, that with every team's unique characteristics, and with other ranked teams' results, lots of considerations come into play besides just win/loss, even when it's head-to-head.  So don't expect the same amount of movement for Messiah and Emmanuel, but they likely will move in the rankings.

[sunny]

Messiah ahead of Emmanuel when Emmanuel beat them head to head on a neutral floor?

Emmanuel has played all comers this year and took a tough loss against Amherst who could be a strong Final Four entry.

Some of the rankings this year have looked so out of place.

As a voter, I had Emmanuel #14 this week and Messiah #16.  I think the rather sizable margin of defeat Emmanuel had against Amherst really hurt them with a lot of other voters who are now hesitant to vault them past several other teams based on the Messiah win.  It's a matter of philosophy - I have no problem moving Team A ahead of Team B even if Team B does not lose that week (other than dropping my No. 1 without them losing ... though I did that once VERY early this season for the first time ever).  However, other voters may not see that the same way - they may have dropped Messiah, but not far enough for Emmanuel to pass them without leapfrogging some other teams.

Another underrated team is Carthage, who I think is five spots too low.  I think their case is symptomatic with the pitfalls of a preseason poll - because they weren't on the radar at the beginning of the season, they've had to slowly work their way up in the minds of a lot of voters.  Their one loss was a two-point road loss to a respectable NAIA Div I team.  They are the only team to beat Hope, the only team to beat Calvin, and one of the three excellent teams to beat Chicago (the other two? IWU and Hope).  By my quick count, there are three teams currently in the top 25 who have at least two wins against other teams currently in the Top 25: Illinois Wesleyan (4-0), Carthage (3-0), and Scranton (2-2).  (Special mention to Emmanuel, who is 1-1 against current Top 25ers and also has a win over Brandeis who missed the Top 25 by three points this week.)

The most "overrated" - based on resume anyway - team right now might be Marymount, though the caveat there is that they were highly regarded coming into the season and have done nothing but win.  As such, I have them ranked at #8, my highest-rated unbeaten team not named Illinois Wesleyan, Amherst, or Bowdoin.  Nonetheless, they have played only ONE game on an opponents' floor in 12 games and barely escaped that one with a three-point win at Wesley and haven't played a single team that is even getting votes in this week's poll.  Again, I do believe they are an excellent team - thus the high ranking - but because of that kind of schedule they will take a big hit from me if/when they suffer their first loss (provided it comes prior to the NCAA Tournament!). 

ETA - To the poster above: the current rankings (week 5) DO include the Emmanuel win over Messiah.

[Erm Schmigget]

sunny-

My assupmtion was that d3nef was basing the comment on the rankings listed just above the post lamenting Emmanuel's lesser ranking, which are from Week 4.  I had not yet seen the Week 5 rankings, as when I went to the Top 25 page, Week 4 was still showing.  (Perhaps I found my way there via the wrong path.)  This brings up a question: at what time are the newest rankings released?  Is it before 08:07:20 am on Tuesday?