Top 25 discussion

[GuyFormerlyPSBBG]

posted it on USASouth board, but it is quiet but it is quiet there.

#39 Greensboro fastest start in history at 6-0.

Made 14 3's on a 87-42 win over Mary Baldwin.

14 3's made according to the record book is tops in program history and 3pt% is #2 best in  program history at 43.8%

Good job ladies.

[troutman]

Fantastic job ladys

[Darryl Nester]

How They Fared

If you notice any problems below, let me know.  In some cases, team records might be wrong because some scores have not been reported to d3hoops.com.  If you notice that your team's schedule is not completely reported, drop a sternly-worded email to your school's SID.

Top 25

Rank	Pts	Team	W-L	Results
#1	622	Amherst	10-0	def. Emmanuel, 75-62; def. #28 Eastern Connecticut, 79-55; def. Lehman, 101-60
#2	592	Hope	7-0	def. Kalamazoo, 98-41
#3	570	Christopher Newport	6-0	def. Meredith, 84-68
#4	543	Kean	7-0	def. DeSales, 69-65
#5	494	Carthage	6-1	LOST at T#39 Calvin, 59-69
#6	469	Washington U.	7-1	def. Central, 81-47; def. Loras, 69-49
#7	452	Mount Union	6-1	LOST to John Carroll, 82-84; def. Capital, 65-44
#8	430	Babson	8-0	def. MIT, 70-40; def. WPI, 59-51
#9	422	Williams	8-0	def. Hamilton, 67-48
#10	417	DePauw	5-2	LOST at Millikin, 59-65
#11	358	Rochester	8-1	def. Oswego State, 69-36; def. William Smith, 74-51
#12	328	Thomas More	7-0	def. Westminster (Pa.), 71-49
#13	291	Illinois Wesleyan	5-2	def. St. Francis (Ill.), 76-59; def. #18 UW-Stevens Point, 76-72
#14	271	William Paterson	7-1	def. New Paltz State, 71-59; LOST at Richard Stockton, 52-61
#15	225	UW-Whitewater	6-2	LOST to #18 UW-Stevens Point, 69-83; def. UW-Superior, 87-76
#16	216	Muhlenberg	7-0	def. Bryn Mawr, 87-43
#17	209	George Fox	6-2	IDLE
#18	198	UW-Stevens Point	7-2	def. #15 UW-Whitewater, 83-69; LOST to #13 Illinois Wesleyan, 72-76
#19	174	St. Vincent	7-1	LOST at Juniata, 71-86; def. Chatham, 58-41
#20	167	UW-La Crosse	9-1	def. UW-Stout, 75-54; def. UW-Platteville, 63-56
#21	108	Lebanon Valley	8-1	def. Marywood, 60-49
#22	81	Medaille	6-1	def. Pitt-Bradford, 56-54; def. Franciscan, 63-49
#23	54	Puget Sound	6-1	def. Evergreen St., 58-44
#24	53	Bowdoin	7-1	def. Husson, 89-55; def. Colby-Sawyer, 72-55; def. Maine Maritime, 87-38
#25	51	UW-River Falls	6-3	def. UW-Eau Claire, 65-64; LOST at UW-Oshkosh, 52-61

Others receiving votes

Rank	Pts	Team	W-L	Results
T#26	46	Johns Hopkins	8-1	def. McDaniel, 67-47
T#26	46	Western Connecticut	7-1	def. Trinity (Conn.), 58-40; def. Mass-Dartmouth, 80-34
#28	37	Eastern Connecticut	8-1	def. Westfield State, 74-49; LOST at #1 Amherst, 55-79; def. Plymouth State, 107-60
#29	35	Louisiana College	7-0	def. Concordia (Texas), 92-68
#30	26	St. Norbert	6-1	def. Beloit, 74-53; def. Knox, 63-38
#31	25	Gallaudet	8-0	def. Penn State-Abington, 81-43; def. Penn State-Harrisburg, 76-66
T#32	22	Mississippi College	9-0	def. Concordia (Texas), 66-59
T#32	22	St. Benedict	5-1	def. Hamline, 73-71; def. Bethel, 63-55; def. Gustavus Adolphus, 64-61
#34	19	Wisconsin Lutheran	6-0	def. Lakeland, 58-48; def. Rockford, 52-43
#35	13	Gettysburg	4-3	LOST at Franklin and Marshall, 53-66
#36	12	Colby	6-1	def. University of New England, 58-53; def. Maine-Presque Isle, 71-37
#37	9	Mary Washington	4-3	LOST to Marymount, 52-53
#38	8	Baldwin-Wallace	6-1	def. Wilmington, 70-57
T#39	2	Calvin	7-2	def. #5 Carthage, 69-59; def. Kalamazoo, 76-35
T#39	2	Concordia-Moorhead	5-0	def. Carleton, 81-37; 12/11 at St. Thomas-POSTPONED; def. St. Mary's (Minn.), 55-34
T#39	2	Greensboro	7-0	def. Mary Baldwin, 87-42; def. Shenandoah, 67-48
T#39	2	Lewis and Clark	4-3	IDLE
T#43	1	Messiah	4-4	LOST at DeSales, 47-58
T#43	1	Whitman	6-2	def. Menlo, 76-52; def. Col. of Idaho, 60-59

Other teams to watch (as suggested by posters on this board)

Rank	Pts	Team	W-L	Results
---	---	Bridgewater (Va.)	5-0	IDLE

(The last entry is there because of BH20Fan's post; no additional information at this point because Bridgewater has no games scheduled until Tuesday.)

...
Alright, time to start stumping for some top 25 votes for Bridgewater.
...

[GuyFormerlyPSBBG]

If there are CNU fans/players that read but don't post,  I really wouldn't expect much higher than #3 unless Amherst and Hope lose 2-3 games.  A 2-3 loss Hope and Amherst should still be considered "better" based on strength of schedule.  However best of luck in Hawaii, represent the south well.


If I find some time today, I will try to rationalize if CNU is ranked #3 Greensboro should be at least in the top 25

[Dark Knight]

If I find some time today, I will try to rationalize if CNU is ranked #3 Greensboro should be at least in the top 25

A perplexing question. I think the answer is yes.

Of course, CNU shouldn't be anywhere close to the top 25.

[sunny]

CNU started the season highly-ranked in the preseason poll and with good reason, based on what they returned and their performance last season. 30-1 with the loss coming to Rochester who went on to the Final Four.

If you remember, it took CNU a long time to climb high in the rankings last season. They are ranked highly this season because of the reasons mentioned above and, to a lesser extant, because of their thrashing of Messiah - who, it turns out, is sort of ordinary. Not much else jumps out and, because of that, I think the voters will be looking at their Thomas More game as a big, big test - at least this voter will be.  Greensboro fans should actually be rooting for CNU to stay ranked as highly as possible with as few losses as possible before the two teams play on 1/23.  A Greensboro win (or even a close loss) will mean more in that case.

[GuyFormerlyPSBBG]

If I find some time today, I will try to rationalize if CNU is ranked #3 Greensboro should be at least in the top 25

A perplexing question. I think the answer is yes.

Of course, CNU shouldn't be anywhere close to the top 25.

I do disagree, CNU should be in the Top 25.  They returned all 5 of their starters from a team that's only loss came in the sweet 16. I think a top-16 is more likely, even a top 8 is reasonable.  At this point in the season top 3 is a push.

Ok, to answer an earlier post, Greensboro can't compare in OWP and OOWP with CNU.  However Greensboro has a margin of victory in conference play of 26.3 to CNU's 25.3.  Ok I know its not much of an argument, but CNU's conference opponents (so far) are 0-8 in conference play.  Greensboro on the other hand not much better conference opponents (so far) are 2-7. GC hasn't allowed a conference opponent to break 50.

Ok FG% defense for CNU in conference play is 37.5% 31.5% and 47.2%. GC 30.4%, 26.5%, 34%

Ok so why is all this important?  I think its fair to assume that either CNU is really overrated or Greensboro is really underrated. Take your pick.

Look at asst/to ratios too. GC 1.02 CNU .85 (all conference play) (Remember conference CNU opponents are 0-8) 

CNU has a huge advantage in rebounding margin and shot% in conference play (something you might expect out of a #3 team)

The only like opponent has been SU GC@home CNU@SU
GC 67-48 (19 pt win)  CNU 74-62 (12 pt win)

Greensboro fans should actually be rooting for CNU to stay ranked as highly as possible with as few losses as possible before the two teams play on 1/23.  A Greensboro win (or even a close loss) will mean more in that case.

They play Ferrum first, don't count them out on that game.  If CNU wins you could expect the score to be something like 93-85. 

I don't expect them to go 2-0 in Hawaii, Thomas More yes, McMurry no. My early projections.  (Yes I know Thomas More is ranked.  Someone tell me when was the last time Thomas More's conference had a team in the final four?)

[sunny]

If I find some time today, I will try to rationalize if CNU is ranked #3 Greensboro should be at least in the top 25

A perplexing question. I think the answer is yes.

Of course, CNU shouldn't be anywhere close to the top 25.

I do disagree, CNU should be in the Top 25.  They returned all 5 of their starters from a team that's only loss came in the sweet 16. I think a top-16 is more likely, even a top 8 is reasonable.  At this point in the season top 3 is a push.

Ok, to answer an earlier post, Greensboro can't compare in OWP and OOWP with CNU.  However Greensboro has a margin of victory in conference play of 26.3 to CNU's 25.3.  Ok I know its not much of an argument, but CNU's conference opponents (so far) are 0-8 in conference play.  Greensboro on the other hand not much better conference opponents (so far) are 2-7. GC hasn't allowed a conference opponent to break 50.

Ok FG% defense for CNU in conference play is 37.5% 31.5% and 47.2%. GC 30.4%, 26.5%, 34%

Ok so why is all this important?  I think its fair to assume that either CNU is really overrated or Greensboro is really underrated. Take your pick.

Look at asst/to ratios too. GC 1.02 CNU .85 (all conference play) (Remember conference CNU opponents are 0-8) 

CNU has a huge advantage in rebounding margin and shot% in conference play (something you might expect out of a #3 team)

The only like opponent has been SU GC@home CNU@SU
GC 67-48 (19 pt win)  CNU 74-62 (12 pt win)

Greensboro fans should actually be rooting for CNU to stay ranked as highly as possible with as few losses as possible before the two teams play on 1/23.  A Greensboro win (or even a close loss) will mean more in that case.

They play Ferrum first, don't count them out on that game.  If CNU wins you could expect the score to be something like 93-85. 

I don't expect them to go 2-0 in Hawaii, Thomas More yes, McMurry no. My early projections.  (Yes I know Thomas More is ranked.  Someone tell me when was the last time Thomas More's conference had a team in the final four?)

In a one-season vacuum, Newport is probably overrated. As both you and I have observed, however, they are getting bonus points from bringing back all five starters from a team with one loss, in the final 16 of the tournament.  They started highly-ranked and haven't lost, so chances are they weren't going to drop in that scenario. That said - and I can only speak for myself - any loss is going to hurt them substantially more than it would other top teams, because they get so few cracks at top 25-considered opponents.  Look at the schedules teams like IWU, DePauw, and UWSP, have.  They can get "passes" (not a complete pass, but more of one that other teams get( on losses to each other and even losses to "above average teams" because they've got (and will get more) "quality wins." So, if Newport takes a couple (or more) losses this season, they will likely drop far.  Personally, based on their body of work and schedule thus far (Messiah being not very Messiah like is not doing CNU any favors), a loss to either Thomas More or (unranked) McMurry is going to drop them quite a bit in my poll. 

I feel for the USAC and ODAC schools, because a lot of this is beyond their control.  Both conferences have a good share of mediocre (or worse) teams and geography is a real impediment to them playing other top schools without stepping out of region (and/or going to Hawaii!) That said, it's impossible to take sympathy for those circumstances into account in the poll.

FYI - Thomas More is a similar case to CNU, albeit on a smaller scale. Took a while for anyone in the PAC to get respect. W&J opened the door and Thomas More followed them through. Nice season last year for Thomas More and no losses yet this year. Greensboro has the opportunity to become the Thomas More to CNU's W&J.

[GuyFormerlyPSBBG]

FYI - Thomas More is a similar case to CNU, albeit on a smaller scale. Took a while for anyone in the PAC to get respect. W&J opened the door and Thomas More followed them through. Nice season last year for Thomas More and no losses yet this year. Greensboro has the opportunity to become the Thomas More to CNU's W&J.

Although I can agree with that, but Greensboro has made 4 NCAA appearances in the last 6 years.  CNU has gotten further in the last 2 years.  There will be a ton of people that will probably disagree with me but, I think CNU will be grouped in a easier region more times than what Greensboro would see.

This is off the top of my head.

2004-2005- GC played Trinity defending national champ (2nd round first playoff game)
2005-2006-GC won first round game Moravian 2nd round played RMC (2004-2005 final 4 team)
2007-2008-GC played #3 Thomas More first round lost
2008-2009 GC won first round against Mississippi College lost 2nd round to Oglethorpe (2007-2008 Oglethorpe Final Four team)

I personally think SCAC, ASC and PAC (Greensboro more likely to play) is stronger than teams in ODAC, CC, CAC (CNU more likely to play)

Although ODAC, and CAC could go either way, depends on whether USASouth team has a better season than ODAC or CAC.

[Ralph Turner]

The McMurry women of 2010-11 are not nearly as strong as the years with Josten-winner Tarra Richardson, 2004-2008.

A McMurry win puts the CNU issue in doubt.  A CNU win might not mean anything.

[GuyFormerlyPSBBG]

If CNU wins both games, it will start to show legitimacy for the ranking.

Looks like Thomas More has some size.  I've seen CNU fans post that CNU will have trouble guarding Duncan of Greensboro.  A loss might still be possible.  I am willing to bet though CNU could actually be too quick for Thomas More, time will tell I guess.

BTW Greensboro used a 24-9 run (31-10 to the end) to spark a win against Maryville today an NCAA team last season.  Another team they held below 40% shooting.

[Darryl Nester]

How They Fared--Midweek Report


Not much happening this week, as final exams and Christmas break cut into the basketball schedule.  Twelve games so far, with only 28 more pending through Sunday. (That's still more than on the men's side, where there are only 27 games in total.)

Top 25

Rank	Pts	Team	W-L	Results
#1	622	Amherst	11-0	def. Springfield, 69-49
#2	596	Hope	7-0	12/17 vs. Concordia (Ill.); 12/18 vs. Wittenberg
#3	570	Christopher Newport	6-0	12/19 vs. #10 Thomas More
#4	549	Kean	7-1	LOST at Rutgers, 56-90; 12/18 at Messiah
#5	502	Washington U.	7-1	12/18 at Webster
#6	486	Babson	8-0	12/19 at Roanoke
#7	464	Williams	8-0	IDLE
#8	414	Rochester	8-1	IDLE
#9	400	UW-Stevens Point	7-2	12/19 vs. Milwaukee Engineering
#10	381	Thomas More	7-0	12/19 at #3 Christopher Newport
#11	347	Illinois Wesleyan	5-3	LOST at Olivet Nazarene, 106-110; 12/18 vs. Loras
#12	295	Carthage	6-2	LOST to Chicago, 46-49; 12/19 at Clarke
#13	272	Mount Union	6-1	12/18 at Wilmington
#14	268	Muhlenberg	7-0	12/18 at Montclair State
#15	248	George Fox	6-2	IDLE
#16	246	DePauw	5-2	12/18 vs. Elmhurst
#17	221	UW-La Crosse	9-2	LOST at Coe, 48-62
#18	163	UW-Whitewater	7-2	def. Dubuque, 91-68
#19	162	William Paterson	7-1	12/18 vs. Mount St. Mary
#20	133	Lebanon Valley	8-1	IDLE
#21	91	Puget Sound	6-1	12/19 vs. Occidental
#22	90	Medaille	7-1	def. Clarkson, 93-82
#23	86	Bowdoin	7-1	IDLE
#24	69	Louisiana College	7-0	12/16 vs. Mary Hardin-Baylor; 12/18 at William Carey
#25	68	Johns Hopkins	8-1	IDLE

Others receiving votes

Rank	Pts	Team	W-L	Results
#26	62	Western Connecticut	7-1	IDLE
#27	59	Mississippi College	10-0	def. Mary Hardin-Baylor, 57-52
#28	42	St. Norbert	6-1	IDLE
#29	38	Calvin	7-2	12/18 vs. Albion
#30	34	Wisconsin Lutheran	6-0	12/17 at T#41 Millikin; 12/18 at Blackburn
#31	31	St. Vincent	7-1	12/19 vs. Wentworth
T#32	26	Eastern Connecticut	8-1	IDLE
T#32	26	Gallaudet	8-0	12/19 at Penn State-Berks
T#34	18	Baldwin-Wallace	7-1	def. Marietta, 73-48; 12/18 at Centre; 12/19 at Transylvania
T#34	18	St. Benedict	6-1	IDLE
#36	16	Colby	6-1	IDLE
#37	7	Greensboro	8-0	def. Maryville (Tenn.), 72-61
#38	3	Concordia-Moorhead	5-0	IDLE
T#39	2	UW-River Falls	6-2	def. Hamline, 67-52; 12/18 vs. Concordia (Wis.)
T#39	2	Whitman	6-2	IDLE
T#41	1	Millikin	5-3	12/17 vs. #30 Wisconsin Lutheran; 12/19 vs. Blackburn
T#41	1	Widener	9-1	12/18 vs. Rowan

Other teams to watch (as suggested by posters on this board)

Rank	Pts	Team	W-L	Results
---	---	Bridgewater (Va.)	6-0	def. Averett, 63-56; 12/18 at Ottawa University; 12/19 at Manchester

[troutman]

Thank you Darryl Nester, You go to alot of effort posting all the teams weekly.Your time and love and knowledge for this game is greatly appreciated by me

[GuyFormerlyPSBBG]

Team	Record
Texas-Dallas	9-0
Mississippi College	10-0
Louisana College	8-0
Muhlenberg	7-0
LaGrange	7-0
Hanover	6-0
Wartburg	8-0
Bridgewater St	8-0
Hope	7-0
Concordia-Morhead	5-0
Babson	8-0
Denison	10-0
Gallaudet	8-0
Wisconsin Lutheran	6-0
Thomas More	7-0
Cortland St	6-0
Oneonta St	7-0
Christopher Newport	6-0
Greensboro	8-0
Bridgewater	6-0
Ameherst	11-0
Williams	8-0
Middlebury	6-0

And now there are 23 unbeaten teams,  7 of which are ranked.

7 teams fell from the unbeaten ranks this past week.

[WLCALUM83]

Wisconsin Lutheran lost to Millikin by 13, beat Blackburn