Top 25 discussion

[GuyFormerlyPSBBG]

Team	Record
Babson	16-0
Denison	18-0
Gallaudet	16-0
Thomas More	17-0
Greensboro	16-0

5 teams left unbeaten.  1 teams fell from the unbeaten ranks this past week.  Gallaudet the only unranked team in the bunch.


Interesting on the poll last week between Denison, Gallaudet, and Greensboro.  Who will remain unbeaten the longest?  Greensboro came in 3rd.  

If Gallaudet loses a game it will hurt them.  Looking at overall conference and combined records.  Gallaudet's opponents are 62-85 (.421).  Greensboro is 68-73 (.482) and Denison is 55-57 (.491.)  Gallaudet has the best chance of finishing undefeated.  

OPW% of the teams the rest of the way Gallaudet 53-79 (.401) Greensboro 75-66 (.531) and Denison 55-61 (.474)

I think Greensboro should be ahead of Denison especially considering the OPW% they will face the rest of the way.  That is just a fan's opinion.

I am glad to see Gallaudet doing well, but if I were to vote in the polls, I think the numbers speak for themselves there are probably a couple more 1 or 2 loss teams that are more deserving.

[sunny]

I have consistently had Gallaudet in my Top 25, despite their soft schedule. Why? 

Primarily, because I also have Lebanon Valley ranked. IMHO, though Lebanon Valley's schedule as a whole is more challenging than Gallaudet's, Lebanon Valley lost to Gallaudet head to head and doesn't have a win on its resume as good as Gallaudet's win over Lebanon Valley.   I have a hard time with the notion that a one-loss team should be ranked while the team who beat said one-loss team AND is undefeated, shouldn't be. That said, I'm aware of the weakness of the NEAC and if Gallaudet loses any of those games, I would likely drop them out of my poll. Until then, however, they stay in - albeit as the lowest of the unbeatens in my poll this week.

[kate]

Good morning, Sunny.  Your observations on Lebanon Valley are interesting, however i was wondering if you knew much about the MAC Commonwealth.  Anytime in one league where you have to face a Widener, a Messiah, and an Alvernia, you're facing some pretty stiff competition - not to mention an Elizabethtown.  All the previously mentioned teams have more than proven their power over the years.  Well coached, all, and can beat the best of em.  So, if the Lady Dutch can hold on in that league,  well, as they say, that's why the games are played.

[kate]

Just as an after thought, i remember years ago (before the departure of several of our MAC teams), when Del Val faced a Scranton, a King's, and a DeSales, that we certainly didn't have to look for trouble out-of-league  .

[sunny]

I think I made it clear than LVC's schedule is tougher than Gallaudet's, but was I wrong in claiming that Gallaudet's win over LVC is better than any single win on LVC's schedule?  I'm well aware of the traditional strength of the Commonwealth, but it's hard to deny that, this year, it's sort of LVC and then everyone else.  Good to very good teams, yes, (and clearly FAR superior than the NEAC) but no one else vying for Top 25.

Look, I have both Gallaudet and LVC ranked. I'm not trying to denigrate LVC. I just don't see the logic in ranking a one-loss team without a Top 25 win if you are not also going to rank an undefeated team who handed said one-loss team its only loss of the season. As I said before, because Gallaudet's conference is so weak, any loss at this point would really hurt them in my eyes, but, for now, they are both ranked.

[kate]

Sunny, thanks for the response.  I do see what you're talking about, as another one of my favorite teams is Kean, and truthfully, their only loss is to Illinois Wesleyan (the other being Rutgers).  They've played a painfully tough ool schedule, and handled themselves very well.  We will see how things play out - above ALL, i root for the MAC, both sides, women & men.  Again, thank you for your thoughtful response.

[GuyFormerlyPSBBG]

Ok, couple of thoughts on the poll:

#1 Thomas More, congrats.  It wasn't unanimous, so there is still alot of question marks in the pollster's eyes.

Good Luck to #19 Louisiana College, the # 19 team hasn't played well this year. (well as of late) 

I was quite shocked to see Greensboro jump up to #17.  My mental poll had them between #17-#21.  I would have only given them a 5% chance to be higher than 19.  Anybody willing to share rationale as to why. 

I didn't see CNU drop out of the top-8, but after looking at the poll,  I think where they are is a good fit for them.

I think Babson might be a little bit on the high side.  I do think 6-10 could beat them on a neutral court, for sure. (Something I didn't say before.) 

I think DePauw is probably a little underrated.

I think it is time to take Greensboro out of the poll (only joking).   A target is on their back

[sunny]

Ok, couple of thoughts on the poll:

#1 Thomas More, congrats.  It wasn't unanimous, so there is still alot of question marks in the pollster's eyes.

Good Luck to #19 Louisiana College, the # 19 team hasn't played well this year. (well as of late)  

I was quite shocked to see Greensboro jump up to #17.  My mental poll had them between #17-#21.  I would have only given them a 5% chance to be higher than 19.  Anybody willing to share rationale as to why.  

I didn't see CNU drop out of the top-8, but after looking at the poll,  I think where they are is a good fit for them.

I think Babson might be a little bit on the high side.  I do think 6-10 could beat them on a neutral court, for sure. (Something I didn't say before.)  

I think DePauw is probably a little underrated.

I think it is time to take Greensboro out of the poll (only joking).   A target is on their back

Some thoughts on your points:

- Thomas More is sort of number 1 by default, which is weird to say about an undefeated team, but a lot of voters simply move teams up so long as a team in front of them loses and will rarely "leapfrog" teams other than in certain cases. (I am not one of them, I leapfrog and re-evaluate on regular basis, but I get that line of thinking, I guess.) Thomas More, since they were highly-ranked at the beginning of the season and are still undefeated is a beneficiary of this. That said, they definitely belong in the top 5, in my opinion, and I think they are one of four-to-six teams that you could make a case for for #1.

- I helped Greensboro. I sky-rocketed them all the way to #9 from #18 last week. From the get-go, I was "wait and see" on them, but now that they have played CNU and won, I look at it this way ... If CNU had played Greensboro's schedule so far and was unbeaten and had just beaten Greensboro at home, where would they be ranked? Top 10, right? So, I'm not too crazy, but if I had a "do over," I might have gone a couple spots lower. The two teams will play again, which will either validate the way I voted (if Greensboro wins on the road), show the two teams as even (if CNU wins a close one), or show that CNU simply lost a tough road game (if CNU wins by a wide margin). We will see.

- I have CNU way down at #16 (from #12 last week). Again, now that the two teams have played, I'm trying to ignore where they were ranked coming into the season. If Greensboro had CNU's resume this season, where would they be ranked? Mid-teens is my guess.  It's a hard game to play, but again, that will correct if CNU gets the split. Remember, with 400+ schools it's not like there is a huge difference between #9 and #16 any way.

- IMHO, I agree on Babson - I have them at #11. West Conn is their best win and I think they are benefitting from the same "started the season ranked highly and saw teams lose in front of them" factor that got Thomas More to #1. It is what it is. Can't fault them for winning, same way I can't fault Thomas More.

- DePauw's loss to Trinity hurt them this week. I have them at #14, while the poll as a whole has them at #16, so my thinking is pretty similar there. DePauw did beat Illinois Wesleyan in the first game of the year, and I think IWU is underrated at #6. Their non-conference schedule was absolutely amazing. Check it out - it includes wins over Wash U, UW-Stevens Point, Kean, Chicago, and Baruch. Losses to DePauw, UW-Whitewater (both within first three games of the season), and Olivet Nazarane,who  was #22 in NAIA Div I last week. Plus, beating Millikin, Carthage, and Wheaton in conference play isn't too shabby.

[troutman]

Well my daughter plays for Gallaudet and USA TODAY and ESPN have them ranked 24th in the nation. D3.COM has their reasons for their ranking just like USA TODAY and ESPN has their reasons.It is what it is.These kids are either completely deaf or mostly deaf.In a hearing game. They have shown exceptional strength and have overcame adversity this year.Out of 441 teams there are only 5 teams left unbeaten.Lebanon Valley came to our gym and played us and we won.Say what you want about Gallaudet.I tell you what, you bring any team to our gym,put ear plugs in their ears and lets see how they do against us.I think these kids are true champions this year,they may not win the D-3 championship but under the circumstances I think they deserve to be in D-3s top 25 easily!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!Thank you Sunny for your kind words about Gallaudet.

[sunny]

I did want to add that, in all these cases, we are talking about the best of the best teams in Division III. Whether I, or anyone else, considers one of these teams #1 or #5 or #10 or #20 or #25 or #35, these are all really, really good teams having great years. That's the best thing about voting in the poll - a reason to keep up with the very best teams!

My analysis isn't in any way an attempt to definitively separate these teams - just providing insight into one voter's rationale!

[Pat Coleman]

Well my daughter plays for Gallaudet and USA TODAY and ESPN have them ranked 24th in the nation. D3.COM has their reasons for their ranking just like USA TODAY and ESPN has their reasons.It is what it is.These kids are either completely deaf or mostly deaf.In a hearing game. They have shown exceptional strength and have overcame adversity this year.Out of 441 teams there are only 5 teams left unbeaten.Lebanon Valley came to our gym and played us and we won.Say what you want about Gallaudet.I tell you what, you bring any team to our gym,put ear plugs in their ears and lets see how they do against us.I think these kids are true champions this year,they may not win the D-3 championship but under the circumstances I think they deserve to be in D-3s top 25 easily!

No doubt, and nobody around here knows this more than I do -- when this site started, I was the sports information director at Gallaudet and this site was hosted on the Gallaudet webserver.

Indeed, the coaches (not ESPN, let's be honest, nobody at ESPN votes on that poll -- and the D3hoops.com Top 25 has more connection to USA Today than that poll does since I worked there for 12 years!) have Gallaudet 24. We have them "26" -- it's not a big difference of opinion.

Don't downgrade your players by saying that about them, the part I bolded. When I was at Gallaudet there wasn't a single person I knew who would have wanted a supporter to say that.

[kate]

Good morning, All.  Sunny, first, i am totally naive many times, but i did not realize that you were a pollster.  We've only been attending D3 games for 13 years, now  , but hey, sometimes i can be dense.  Next, Pat, absolutely did not know that you started at Gallaudet.  I thought because you attended Catholic that your b'ball career began there.  We were so lucky to see Gallaudet play in a tourney at E'town with DVC as a participant.  We actually saw Rhonda Jo Miller play!  Please know that we LIVE for this time of year.  Del Val is very dear to our hearts, but we appreciate all that has evolved with D3 ball.  The quality of play, announcers, live stats, video, audio - the only thing that has slacked off a bit is newspaper coverage, but D3 hoops picks up that end nicely.  Thank you

[Pat Coleman]

Thanks.

Ronda Jo Miller was a special player in Division III women's basketball history. Touria Ouahid got her due from us as a one-time All-American selection from that team and Ronda Johnson was really good, too.

[GuyFormerlyPSBBG]

I was really looking forward to watching Thomas More tonight.  Anyone know if you have to pay to watch the video? I do some light volunteer coaching side work with a local high school team here in FL.  (I tend to go and scout the teams for the school, mostly. My job prevents me from doing much more than that.)  Tonight they have a game, so I will be there instead. (By the way, SWFL not a strong area for basketball.)

As for Gallaudet, I've seen them play when they were a "bad" team.  (Couple of times the past few years)  I didn't think they were awful.  Some of those players could have been starters on many CAC teams.  I think the drawback for them is not their disabilities, its the conference they are in, as it is considered a "weak"conference.  

troutman:  Don't let the poll discourage you.  There were times in my less wise days,  I was all over the place arguing that Greensboro should be in the polls with a 21-7 record.  Flew under the radar, and beat Moravian in the first round.  Being in the poll puts a target on your back, something at times better not to be ranked.

[troutman]

Pat all I was saying is my daughter said one time if you think its easy playing and not being able to hear you need to try it sometimes.You have to use alot of your other sences.They are adjusting their body, head all the time just to be equal with a hearing person on the floor.Also thank you for your supportive 24th,who knows how they will finnish but its been a great ride for them so far.I think you of all people should know just how difficult it is to have a (very good)deaf player come along to get you where Gallaudet is now.All of the other teams can recrute a hearing kid for their team Gallaudet is in a diffrent situation.