Top 25 discussion

[Ralph Turner]

West is probably overrated but there are teams listed in the west that are actually in IA and MN, which is actually more Central. I guess the west is benefiting from those locations..

Yes, MIAC and IIAC are West Region conferences.

[GuyFormerlyPSBBG]

I'd move most of the Landmark to the Mid-Atlantic from the Atlantic  (Scranton, Juniata, Moravian, Susquehanna, Drew). That should boost the Mid-Atlantic. I'd say the West is overrated; can't believe that Massey has the MIAC with 7 schools ranked higher than Juniata, Scranton, and Moravian.

IMHO, Juniata, Scranton and Moravian are the Big 3 among some real midgets in that part of the country.

The same can be said for the Pres AC and Thomas More. 

As for DePauw, there is a real drop-off in what used to be a strong SCAC.  The NCAC is getting a real "Mama Tiger" who will claw her way thru the conference with little resistance.

The same thing for the USA South.  I cannot put two teams above a whole conference.  I think that head-to-head that the ODAC #1-5/#7-11) beats the USASouth #1-10.

I am sorry in years past I would agree with that statement, but I think you are about 2 years behind on your logic.  Greensboro helped put USASouth on the map, plus the sucess of CNU has bolstered the conference.  I think the conferences are pretty equal top to bottom


#1 USASouth was 3-0 against #6, #8,#10 combined score 241-154
#2 USASouth was 2-0 agains #4, #7 combined score 149-112
#3 UsaSouth was 1-1 against #2, #3 combined Score 134-136
#4 USASouth was 1-1 against #8 and #10 combined score of 106-97
#5 UsaSouth was 1-2 against #1, #5, #6 combine score of 171-173
#6 USasouth was 2-0 against #5 and #8 combine score of 133-104
#7 USASouth was 2-1 against #6, #9, #11 combine score of 192-162
#8 USASouth was 1-3 against #1, #4, #5, #9 combine score of 210-284
#9 USASouth was 1-1 against #6 and #11 combine score of 122-109
#10 USASouth was 1-0 against #8 score of 52-47

The top of the USASouth dominated the bottom of the conference as did the ODAC to the USASouth.  Head to Head the teams within their own conference did compete well with those teams in the other conference in the same placements. 

Massey Ratings has the USASouth at #22 and the ODAC at #28

[GuyFormerlyPSBBG]

low scoring defensive battle at CNU.  #13 CNU up 26-23 on #10 Greensboro halftime.

[Ralph Turner]

I'd move most of the Landmark to the Mid-Atlantic from the Atlantic  (Scranton, Juniata, Moravian, Susquehanna, Drew). That should boost the Mid-Atlantic. I'd say the West is overrated; can't believe that Massey has the MIAC with 7 schools ranked higher than Juniata, Scranton, and Moravian.

IMHO, Juniata, Scranton and Moravian are the Big 3 among some real midgets in that part of the country.

The same can be said for the Pres AC and Thomas More. 

As for DePauw, there is a real drop-off in what used to be a strong SCAC.  The NCAC is getting a real "Mama Tiger" who will claw her way thru the conference with little resistance.

The same thing for the USA South.  I cannot put two teams above a whole conference.  I think that head-to-head that the ODAC #1-5/#7-11) beats the USASouth #1-10.

I am sorry in years past I would agree with that statement, but I think you are about 2 years behind on your logic.  Greensboro helped put USASouth on the map, plus the sucess of CNU has bolstered the conference.  I think the conferences are pretty equal top to bottom


#1 USASouth was 3-0 against #6, #8,#10 combined score 241-154
#2 USASouth was 2-0 agains #4, #7 combined score 149-112
#3 UsaSouth was 1-1 against #2, #3 combined Score 134-136
#4 USASouth was 1-1 against #8 and #10 combined score of 106-97
#5 UsaSouth was 1-2 against #1, #5, #6 combine score of 171-173
#6 USasouth was 2-0 against #5 and #8 combine score of 133-104
#7 USASouth was 2-1 against #6, #9, #11 combine score of 192-162
#8 USASouth was 1-3 against #1, #4, #5, #9 combine score of 210-284
#9 USASouth was 1-1 against #6 and #11 combine score of 122-109
#10 USASouth was 1-0 against #8 score of 52-47

The top of the USASouth dominated the bottom of the conference as did the ODAC to the USASouth.  Head to Head the teams within their own conference did compete well with those teams in the other conference in the same placements. 

Massey Ratings has the USASouth at #22 and the ODAC at #28

#1 Bridgewater 2-0 Beat #5 and #7
#2 RMC           0-1 lost to #3 Ferrum 70-63
#3 Roanoke     1-0 Beat #3 Ferrum 73-64
#4 W&L           1-1 Lost #2 CNU 81-76, Beat #8
#5 EMU           0-1  Lost to #5 Averett 74-66
#6 Guilford        4-1 Beat #4,5,7,9.  Lost to #1.
#7 VWC           0-1 Lost to #2 CNU
#8 Lynchburg    0-4 Lost to #1, #4, #6, #10
#9 Hollins         0-2 Lost to #7, #8
#10 E&H          1-2 Lost to #1, #3; Beat #4
#11 Randolph    0-2 Lost #7, #9

[Mr. Ypsi]

I have no idea where to post this question, but this thread seems apt to be seen by the most historians/stat-mongers.

The IWU seniors have already won 104 games, with probably at least 6 to go (and I'm hoping for 9 )  Anyone know what the record is for a 4-year stretch?  (A top ten would be even better! )

[ronk]

  Played in or were on the team? I know the Mellody/Matt years(2004-7) Scranton won 114, but I don't know if they played in all the games.

[BlueZoneBruin]

West is probably overrraterd but there are teams listed in the west that are actually in IA and MN, which is actually more Central. I guess the west is benefiting from those locations..

The true west may be overrated, but its really hard to know when the best teams are forced to play one another to get out of the second round. Those teams don't have the option of playing playoff teams from weaker conferences and regions. They just beat up on each other. George Fox has been to four Sweet 16s in the past six years, three Elite 8s, and won the championship with decisive victories over teams from the South (Oglethorpe - Final Four year prior), Great Lakes (Hope - Elite Eight year prior), Central (Wash U - the clear favorite of everyone involved), and East (New Jersey - with all-american Hillary Klimowicz who was thoroughly dominated). Had Fox not had to play Puget Sound for a fourth time in the second round that year, UPS was good enough to reach at least the Elite 8, which they and PLU have done before. The think the UPS game was the closest the Bruins played in the tournament.

Further, they never have the opportunity to host a sectional, due to the NCAA 500 mile requirement. If WashU hadn't hosted last year's Elite 8 game against Fox, it's hard to say that it would have been a similar outcome. But since geography is allowed to impact the outcome, the West will always be at a disadvantage.

True, the West is down this year. But without the ability for the country to see that multiple teams from the West are that good, they will always be in a situation as they are this season, where none of these schools are even in the top 25. Both Lewis and Clark and George Fox should be ranked in the lower half of the top 25, and UPS should have votes, at least up until this weekend when they lost to both L&C and GFU.

[Mr. Ypsi]

  Played in or were on the team? I know the Mellody/Matt years(2004-7) Scranton won 114, but I don't know if they played in all the games.

While 2 or 3 of the IWU seniors were starters/in the rotation from game one freshman year, I don't know whether any actually played EVERY game.  So school four-year totals would be enough.

Since even winning the national title, IWU could only reach 113, Scranton definitely has them beat.  The current leader I've found is Hope: they won 115 from 2005-06 - 2008-09, and from 2007-08 thru today they are at 114 and counting.

(I thought Washington U would probably be right up there, but at least since 2000-01 (as far back as their site goes) their best four-year run is 'only' 101 wins.

[Mr. Ypsi]

We have a new leader: U of Southern Maine won 119 (!!) games from 2003-04 - 2006-07.  Another team that might make the top five is Bowdoin, who won 112 games during that same four-year stretch - what battles those must have been!!

[Mr. Ypsi]

I checked a few others that I suspected might be up there.

DePauw, from 2004-05 thru 2007-08, won 111 games.

Kean, for the four years thru last season, won 106.  If they can win over 27 games this years, their total rises by any excess.

Thomas More seems a likely candidate (they are 25-0 this year and have won their conference 6 or 7 years in a row), but I could not find past records anywhere on their website.

Amherst, as of today, at at 112 and counting for the past four years.

I decided to hold it to this millennium, since several sites didn't have records going back any further (and for those that did, women's teams seemed to play far fewer games than today), but if anyone knows of a record earlier, speak up.  And for recent years, any teams who seem likely candidates that I've forgotten to check?

[Darryl Nester]

How They Fared (Complete)

SOS scores taken from the most recent NCAA report (dated 2/16).  For the stat geeks out there, here is information about the distribution of the SOS scores in this list (not ALL SOS scores):

• Mean = 0.535, SD = 0.0418
• min = 0.471, Q₁ = 0.500, Med = 0.526, Q₃ = 0.566, max = 0.620

Top 25

Rank	Pts	Team	W-L	SOS	Results
#1	609	Thomas More	25-0	0.511	def. Thiel, 74-49; def. #15 St. Vincent, 73-48
#2	600	Amherst	24-1	0.617	def. Trinity (Conn.), 57-32
#3	582	Hope	24-1	0.505	def. Olivet, 82-43; def. Albion, 66-48
#4	538	UW-Stevens Point	23-2	0.579	def. UW-Platteville, 75-54; def. #36 UW-La Crosse, 63-49
#5	505	Babson	25-0	0.490	def. Clark, 79-48; def. Mount Holyoke, 95-51
#6	495	Kean	22-3	0.602	def. Richard Stockton, 80-64
#7	421	Illinois Wesleyan	20-4	0.620	def. North Central (Ill.), 78-50; def. North Park, 90-58
#8	420	Chicago	21-3	0.535	def. Brandeis, 70-54; def. New York University, 77-49
#9	405	Washington U.	20-4	0.535	def. New York University, 68-50; def. Brandeis, 79-47
#10	387	Greensboro	24-1	0.503	def. Shenandoah, 64-55; LOST at #13 Christopher Newport, 48-61
#11	374	Denison	25-0	0.476	def. Wittenberg, 62-60; def. Oberlin, 86-62
#12	355	DePauw	22-3	0.497	def. Birmingham-Southern, 75-65; def. Rhodes, 75-46
#13	287	Christopher Newport	22-3	0.524	def. Methodist, 75-28; def. #10 Greensboro, 61-48
#14	263	Louisiana College	22-1	0.498	def. University of the Ozarks, 81-56; def. East Texas Baptist, 73-57
#15	232	St. Vincent	22-3	0.511	def. Grove City, 58-46; LOST at #1 Thomas More, 48-73
#16	226	Rochester	19-5	0.575	def. Carnegie Mellon, 63-39; def. Case Western Reserve, 73-68
#17	220	Lebanon Valley	23-2	0.550	def. Elizabethtown, 62-53; def. Alvernia, 87-34
#18	219	St. Norbert	21-2	0.497	def. Lawrence, 94-43
#19	195	Mount Union	22-3	0.517	def. Baldwin-Wallace, 67-60; def. Heidelberg, 86-57
#20	153	Medaille	21-3	0.471	def. D'Youville, 64-55; LOST at La Roche, 58-61
#21	119	William Paterson	22-3	0.573	def. Ramapo, 60-55; def. Ramapo, 52-43
#22	105	UW-Whitewater	20-5	0.590	def. UW-Oshkosh, 65-58; def. UW-Superior, 87-64
#23	83	Calvin	21-4	0.502	def. Alma, 74-48; def. Trine, 64-35
#24	69	Mount St. Mary	23-2	0.554	def. SUNY-Purchase, 73-28; def. St. Joseph's (L.I.), 91-33
#25	57	Coe	22-3	0.530	def. Luther, 60-55; def. Dubuque, 76-53

Others receiving votes

Rank	Pts	Team	W-L	SOS	Results
#26	52	Bowdoin	21-4	0.597	def. Bates, 69-51
#27	51	Williams	21-4	0.611	def. Tufts, 69-64
#28	28	Hanover	23-1	0.475	def. Rose-Hulman, 66-43; def. Anderson, 69-58
#29	21	Western Connecticut	21-3	0.559	def. Eastern Connecticut, 74-55; def. Mass-Boston, 63-48
#30	12	George Fox	20-5	0.522	def. Linfield, 60-54; def. Puget Sound, 83-55
T#31	9	Johns Hopkins	20-4	0.533	def. Franklin and Marshall, 63-57
T#31	9	Lewis and Clark	20-5	0.526	def. Puget Sound, 75-44; def. Willamette, 80-50
#33	8	Gallaudet	23-2	0.485	def. St. Elizabeth, 76-59; LOST at Penn State-Abington, 51-55; def. Keuka, 69-54; def. Wells, 73-54
#34	7	St. Benedict	18-6	0.490	def. St. Mary's (Minn.), 83-56; LOST at St. Thomas, 47-80
#35	5	Wheaton (Ill.)	18-6	0.538	def. Millikin, 87-51; def. Elmhurst, 72-59
#36	3	UW-La Crosse	19-6	0.558	def. UW-River Falls, 64-58; LOST to #4 UW-Stevens Point, 49-63
#37	1	Chapman	20-5	0.524	LOST at Biola, 46-60

[ronk]

We have a new leader: U of Southern Maine won 119 (!!) games from 2003-04 - 2006-07.  Another team that might make the top five is Bowdoin, who won 112 games during that same four-year stretch - what battles those must have been!!

  In this period, Scranton split with Bowdoin in consecutive Elite 8 games and lost by 2 to S. Maine in the National 3rd place game. There were some quality matchups in these streaks.
  Separately, Randolph-Macon won 106 2005-8.

[Ralph Turner]

I'd move most of the Landmark to the Mid-Atlantic from the Atlantic(Scranton,Juniata,Moravian,Susquehanna,Drew). That should boost the Mid-Atlantic. I'd say the West is overrated; can't believe that Massey has the MIAC with 7 schools ranked higher than Juniata, Scranton, and Moravian.

West is probably overrraterd but there are teams listed in the west that are actually in IA and MN, which is actually more Central. I guess the west is benefiting from those locations..

I see the strengths by regions as follows.
South     (ASC, ODAC, "Greensboro/CNU")

I have given some thought to the NWC being overrated have to disagree.  McMurry and Howard Payne played the NWC teams in the 2007 and were summarily eliminated by fundamentally better teams.

The NWC women were taller than ASC players.  They could hit the outside 3 better than ASC players of that year.  Their defense was superb; in fact, GFU held HPU's Meia Daniels (2008 National POTY) to one breakaway basket in the 2007 sectionals in Decorah IA.  That same year, McMurry had 2 All-Americans, PG Symbri Tuttle and 2008 Jostens winner F/C Tarra Richardson.

I doubt that the NWC has changed much as a conference.  I have seen the quality of players that we from the ASC (HSU, McMurry, HPU and then Louisiana College in 2010.) have played.

I think that the survivor from the NWC will make it at least to the Elite 8 this year when they are flown 1600 miles and 2 time zones east to play the Sectionals.

[ronk]

  Nothing was said about the NWC in particular; the overrated was for the West as a region.

[ichouse]

not much for surprises this week

1. #20   153   Medaille   21-3   0.471   def. D'Youville, 64-55; LOST at La Roche, 58-61
more of a tough loss for a team with the lowest SOS in the top 25

2. #33   8   Gallaudet   23-2   0.485   def. St. Elizabeth, 76-59; LOST at Penn State-Abington, 51-55
have to go to others receiving votes, same as above tough loss for a team with a low SOS

3. #34   7   St. Benedict   18-6   0.490   def. St. Mary's (Minn.), 83-56; LOST at St. Thomas, 47-80
just a bad loss and SOS under .500