Top 25 discussion

Started by Pat Coleman, February 02, 2005, 12:01:07 AM

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Ralph Turner

Quote from: GuyFormerlyPSBBG on February 19, 2011, 05:53:17 AM

West is probably overrated but there are teams listed in the west that are actually in IA and MN, which is actually more Central. I guess the west is benefiting from those locations..

Yes, MIAC and IIAC are West Region conferences.

GuyFormerlyPSBBG

Quote from: Ralph Turner on February 19, 2011, 08:19:39 AM
Quote from: ronk on February 19, 2011, 01:42:28 AM
I'd move most of the Landmark to the Mid-Atlantic from the Atlantic  (Scranton, Juniata, Moravian, Susquehanna, Drew). That should boost the Mid-Atlantic. I'd say the West is overrated; can't believe that Massey has the MIAC with 7 schools ranked higher than Juniata, Scranton, and Moravian.
IMHO, Juniata, Scranton and Moravian are the Big 3 among some real midgets in that part of the country.

The same can be said for the Pres AC and Thomas More. 

As for DePauw, there is a real drop-off in what used to be a strong SCAC.  The NCAC is getting a real "Mama Tiger" who will claw her way thru the conference with little resistance.

The same thing for the USA South.  I cannot put two teams above a whole conference.  I think that head-to-head that the ODAC #1-5/#7-11) beats the USASouth #1-10.


I am sorry in years past I would agree with that statement, but I think you are about 2 years behind on your logic.  Greensboro helped put USASouth on the map, plus the sucess of CNU has bolstered the conference.  I think the conferences are pretty equal top to bottom


#1 USASouth was 3-0 against #6, #8,#10 combined score 241-154
#2 USASouth was 2-0 agains #4, #7 combined score 149-112
#3 UsaSouth was 1-1 against #2, #3 combined Score 134-136
#4 USASouth was 1-1 against #8 and #10 combined score of 106-97
#5 UsaSouth was 1-2 against #1, #5, #6 combine score of 171-173
#6 USasouth was 2-0 against #5 and #8 combine score of 133-104
#7 USASouth was 2-1 against #6, #9, #11 combine score of 192-162
#8 USASouth was 1-3 against #1, #4, #5, #9 combine score of 210-284
#9 USASouth was 1-1 against #6 and #11 combine score of 122-109
#10 USASouth was 1-0 against #8 score of 52-47

The top of the USASouth dominated the bottom of the conference as did the ODAC to the USASouth.  Head to Head the teams within their own conference did compete well with those teams in the other conference in the same placements. 

Massey Ratings has the USASouth at #22 and the ODAC at #28

GuyFormerlyPSBBG

low scoring defensive battle at CNU.  #13 CNU up 26-23 on #10 Greensboro halftime.

Ralph Turner

Quote from: GuyFormerlyPSBBG on February 19, 2011, 09:21:01 AM
Quote from: Ralph Turner on February 19, 2011, 08:19:39 AM
Quote from: ronk on February 19, 2011, 01:42:28 AM
I'd move most of the Landmark to the Mid-Atlantic from the Atlantic  (Scranton, Juniata, Moravian, Susquehanna, Drew). That should boost the Mid-Atlantic. I'd say the West is overrated; can't believe that Massey has the MIAC with 7 schools ranked higher than Juniata, Scranton, and Moravian.
IMHO, Juniata, Scranton and Moravian are the Big 3 among some real midgets in that part of the country.

The same can be said for the Pres AC and Thomas More. 

As for DePauw, there is a real drop-off in what used to be a strong SCAC.  The NCAC is getting a real "Mama Tiger" who will claw her way thru the conference with little resistance.

The same thing for the USA South.  I cannot put two teams above a whole conference.  I think that head-to-head that the ODAC #1-5/#7-11) beats the USASouth #1-10.


I am sorry in years past I would agree with that statement, but I think you are about 2 years behind on your logic.  Greensboro helped put USASouth on the map, plus the sucess of CNU has bolstered the conference.  I think the conferences are pretty equal top to bottom


#1 USASouth was 3-0 against #6, #8,#10 combined score 241-154
#2 USASouth was 2-0 agains #4, #7 combined score 149-112
#3 UsaSouth was 1-1 against #2, #3 combined Score 134-136
#4 USASouth was 1-1 against #8 and #10 combined score of 106-97
#5 UsaSouth was 1-2 against #1, #5, #6 combine score of 171-173
#6 USasouth was 2-0 against #5 and #8 combine score of 133-104
#7 USASouth was 2-1 against #6, #9, #11 combine score of 192-162
#8 USASouth was 1-3 against #1, #4, #5, #9 combine score of 210-284
#9 USASouth was 1-1 against #6 and #11 combine score of 122-109
#10 USASouth was 1-0 against #8 score of 52-47

The top of the USASouth dominated the bottom of the conference as did the ODAC to the USASouth.  Head to Head the teams within their own conference did compete well with those teams in the other conference in the same placements. 

Massey Ratings has the USASouth at #22 and the ODAC at #28
#1 Bridgewater 2-0 Beat #5 and #7
#2 RMC           0-1 lost to #3 Ferrum 70-63
#3 Roanoke     1-0 Beat #3 Ferrum 73-64
#4 W&L           1-1 Lost #2 CNU 81-76, Beat #8
#5 EMU           0-1  Lost to #5 Averett 74-66
#6 Guilford        4-1 Beat #4,5,7,9.  Lost to #1.
#7 VWC           0-1 Lost to #2 CNU
#8 Lynchburg    0-4 Lost to #1, #4, #6, #10
#9 Hollins         0-2 Lost to #7, #8
#10 E&H          1-2 Lost to #1, #3; Beat #4
#11 Randolph    0-2 Lost #7, #9

Mr. Ypsi

#1369
I have no idea where to post this question, but this thread seems apt to be seen by the most historians/stat-mongers.

The IWU seniors have already won 104 games, with probably at least 6 to go (and I'm hoping for 9 ;))  Anyone know what the record is for a 4-year stretch?  (A top ten would be even better! ;D)

ronk

  Played in or were on the team? I know the Mellody/Matt years(2004-7) Scranton won 114, but I don't know if they played in all the games.

BlueZoneBruin

Quote from: GuyFormerlyPSBBG on February 19, 2011, 05:53:17 AM

West is probably overrraterd but there are teams listed in the west that are actually in IA and MN, which is actually more Central. I guess the west is benefiting from those locations..


The true west may be overrated, but its really hard to know when the best teams are forced to play one another to get out of the second round. Those teams don't have the option of playing playoff teams from weaker conferences and regions. They just beat up on each other. George Fox has been to four Sweet 16s in the past six years, three Elite 8s, and won the championship with decisive victories over teams from the South (Oglethorpe - Final Four year prior), Great Lakes (Hope - Elite Eight year prior), Central (Wash U - the clear favorite of everyone involved), and East (New Jersey - with all-american Hillary Klimowicz who was thoroughly dominated). Had Fox not had to play Puget Sound for a fourth time in the second round that year, UPS was good enough to reach at least the Elite 8, which they and PLU have done before. The think the UPS game was the closest the Bruins played in the tournament.

Further, they never have the opportunity to host a sectional, due to the NCAA 500 mile requirement. If WashU hadn't hosted last year's Elite 8 game against Fox, it's hard to say that it would have been a similar outcome. But since geography is allowed to impact the outcome, the West will always be at a disadvantage.

True, the West is down this year. But without the ability for the country to see that multiple teams from the West are that good, they will always be in a situation as they are this season, where none of these schools are even in the top 25. Both Lewis and Clark and George Fox should be ranked in the lower half of the top 25, and UPS should have votes, at least up until this weekend when they lost to both L&C and GFU.

Mr. Ypsi

Quote from: ronk on February 20, 2011, 03:29:13 PM
  Played in or were on the team? I know the Mellody/Matt years(2004-7) Scranton won 114, but I don't know if they played in all the games.

While 2 or 3 of the IWU seniors were starters/in the rotation from game one freshman year, I don't know whether any actually played EVERY game.  So school four-year totals would be enough.

Since even winning the national title, IWU could only reach 113, Scranton definitely has them beat.  The current leader I've found is Hope: they won 115 from 2005-06 - 2008-09, and from 2007-08 thru today they are at 114 and counting.

(I thought Washington U would probably be right up there, but at least since 2000-01 (as far back as their site goes) their best four-year run is 'only' 101 wins.

Mr. Ypsi

We have a new leader: U of Southern Maine won 119 (!!) games from 2003-04 - 2006-07.  Another team that might make the top five is Bowdoin, who won 112 games during that same four-year stretch - what battles those must have been!!

Mr. Ypsi

#1374
I checked a few others that I suspected might be up there.

DePauw, from 2004-05 thru 2007-08, won 111 games.

Kean, for the four years thru last season, won 106.  If they can win over 27 games this years, their total rises by any excess.

Thomas More seems a likely candidate (they are 25-0 this year and have won their conference 6 or 7 years in a row), but I could not find past records anywhere on their website.

Amherst, as of today, at at 112 and counting for the past four years.

I decided to hold it to this millennium, since several sites didn't have records going back any further (and for those that did, women's teams seemed to play far fewer games than today), but if anyone knows of a record earlier, speak up.  And for recent years, any teams who seem likely candidates that I've forgotten to check?

Darryl Nester

#1375
How They Fared (Complete)

SOS scores taken from the most recent NCAA report (dated 2/16).  For the stat geeks out there, here is information about the distribution of the SOS scores in this list (not ALL SOS scores):

  • Mean = 0.535, SD = 0.0418
  • min = 0.471, Q1 = 0.500, Med = 0.526, Q3 = 0.566, max = 0.620

Top 25

Rank   Pts   TeamW-L   SOS     Results
#1609Thomas More25-00.511def. Thiel, 74-49; def. #15 St. Vincent, 73-48
#2600Amherst24-10.617def. Trinity (Conn.), 57-32
#3582Hope24-10.505def. Olivet, 82-43; def. Albion, 66-48
#4538UW-Stevens Point23-20.579def. UW-Platteville, 75-54; def. #36 UW-La Crosse, 63-49
#5505Babson25-00.490def. Clark, 79-48; def. Mount Holyoke, 95-51
#6495Kean22-30.602def. Richard Stockton, 80-64
#7421Illinois Wesleyan20-40.620def. North Central (Ill.), 78-50; def. North Park, 90-58
#8420Chicago21-30.535def. Brandeis, 70-54; def. New York University, 77-49
#9405Washington U.20-40.535def. New York University, 68-50; def. Brandeis, 79-47
#10387Greensboro24-10.503def. Shenandoah, 64-55; LOST at #13 Christopher Newport, 48-61
#11374Denison25-00.476def. Wittenberg, 62-60; def. Oberlin, 86-62
#12355DePauw22-30.497def. Birmingham-Southern, 75-65; def. Rhodes, 75-46
#13287Christopher Newport22-30.524def. Methodist, 75-28; def. #10 Greensboro, 61-48
#14263Louisiana College22-10.498def. University of the Ozarks, 81-56; def. East Texas Baptist, 73-57
#15232St. Vincent22-30.511def. Grove City, 58-46; LOST at #1 Thomas More, 48-73
#16226Rochester19-50.575def. Carnegie Mellon, 63-39; def. Case Western Reserve, 73-68
#17220Lebanon Valley23-20.550def. Elizabethtown, 62-53; def. Alvernia, 87-34
#18219St. Norbert21-20.497def. Lawrence, 94-43
#19195Mount Union22-30.517def. Baldwin-Wallace, 67-60; def. Heidelberg, 86-57
#20153Medaille21-30.471def. D'Youville, 64-55; LOST at La Roche, 58-61
#21119William Paterson22-30.573def. Ramapo, 60-55; def. Ramapo, 52-43
#22105UW-Whitewater20-50.590def. UW-Oshkosh, 65-58; def. UW-Superior, 87-64
#2383Calvin21-40.502def. Alma, 74-48; def. Trine, 64-35
#2469Mount St. Mary23-20.554def. SUNY-Purchase, 73-28; def. St. Joseph's (L.I.), 91-33
#2557Coe22-30.530def. Luther, 60-55; def. Dubuque, 76-53


Others receiving votes
Rank   Pts   TeamW-L   SOS     Results
#2652Bowdoin21-40.597def. Bates, 69-51
#2751Williams21-40.611def. Tufts, 69-64
#2828Hanover23-10.475def. Rose-Hulman, 66-43; def. Anderson, 69-58
#2921Western Connecticut21-30.559def. Eastern Connecticut, 74-55; def. Mass-Boston, 63-48
#3012George Fox20-50.522def. Linfield, 60-54; def. Puget Sound, 83-55
T#319Johns Hopkins20-40.533def. Franklin and Marshall, 63-57
T#319Lewis and Clark20-50.526def. Puget Sound, 75-44; def. Willamette, 80-50
#338Gallaudet23-20.485def. St. Elizabeth, 76-59; LOST at Penn State-Abington, 51-55;
def. Keuka, 69-54; def. Wells, 73-54
#347St. Benedict18-60.490def. St. Mary's (Minn.), 83-56; LOST at St. Thomas, 47-80
#355Wheaton (Ill.)18-60.538def. Millikin, 87-51; def. Elmhurst, 72-59
#363UW-La Crosse19-60.558def. UW-River Falls, 64-58; LOST to #4 UW-Stevens Point, 49-63
#371Chapman20-50.524LOST at Biola, 46-60

ronk

Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on February 20, 2011, 04:29:41 PM
We have a new leader: U of Southern Maine won 119 (!!) games from 2003-04 - 2006-07.  Another team that might make the top five is Bowdoin, who won 112 games during that same four-year stretch - what battles those must have been!!

  In this period, Scranton split with Bowdoin in consecutive Elite 8 games and lost by 2 to S. Maine in the National 3rd place game. There were some quality matchups in these streaks.
  Separately, Randolph-Macon won 106 2005-8.

Ralph Turner

Quote from: GuyFormerlyPSBBG on February 19, 2011, 05:53:17 AM
Quote from: ronk on February 19, 2011, 01:42:28 AM
I'd move most of the Landmark to the Mid-Atlantic from the Atlantic(Scranton,Juniata,Moravian,Susquehanna,Drew). That should boost the Mid-Atlantic. I'd say the West is overrated; can't believe that Massey has the MIAC with 7 schools ranked higher than Juniata, Scranton, and Moravian.

West is probably overrraterd but there are teams listed in the west that are actually in IA and MN, which is actually more Central. I guess the west is benefiting from those locations..

Quote from: Ralph Turner on February 19, 2011, 01:11:23 AM
I see the strengths by regions as follows.
South     (ASC, ODAC, "Greensboro/CNU")

I have given some thought to the NWC being overrated have to disagree.  McMurry and Howard Payne played the NWC teams in the 2007 and were summarily eliminated by fundamentally better teams.

The NWC women were taller than ASC players.  They could hit the outside 3 better than ASC players of that year.  Their defense was superb; in fact, GFU held HPU's Meia Daniels (2008 National POTY) to one breakaway basket in the 2007 sectionals in Decorah IA.  That same year, McMurry had 2 All-Americans, PG Symbri Tuttle and 2008 Jostens winner F/C Tarra Richardson.

I doubt that the NWC has changed much as a conference.  I have seen the quality of players that we from the ASC (HSU, McMurry, HPU and then Louisiana College in 2010.) have played.

I think that the survivor from the NWC will make it at least to the Elite 8 this year when they are flown 1600 miles and 2 time zones east to play the Sectionals.

ronk

  Nothing was said about the NWC in particular; the overrated was for the West as a region.

ichouse

not much for surprises this week

1. #20   153   Medaille   21-3   0.471   def. D'Youville, 64-55; LOST at La Roche, 58-61
more of a tough loss for a team with the lowest SOS in the top 25

2. #33   8   Gallaudet   23-2   0.485   def. St. Elizabeth, 76-59; LOST at Penn State-Abington, 51-55
have to go to others receiving votes, same as above tough loss for a team with a low SOS

3. #34   7   St. Benedict   18-6   0.490   def. St. Mary's (Minn.), 83-56; LOST at St. Thomas, 47-80 >:(
just a bad loss and SOS under .500