Top 25 discussion

[Darryl Nester]

How They Fared (So Far)

Top 25

Rank	Pts	Team	W-L	Results
#1	621	Tufts	22-0	02/14 vs. Middlebury; 02/15 vs. Williams
#2	604	Hope	22-0	def. St. Mary's (Ind.), 69-43; 02/15 at Alma
#3	546	DePauw	21-1	02/15 vs. Ohio Wesleyan
#4	518	UW-Whitewater	20-2	won at UW-Platteville, 59-55; 02/15 at UW-Eau Claire
#5	510	Bowdoin	21-2	02/16 at Wesleyan
#6	471	Amherst	19-3	02/14 at Trinity (Conn.); 02/15 at Connecticut College
#7	458	Whitman	19-2	02/14 vs. #18 George Fox; 02/15 vs. Pacific
#8	439	Transylvania	21-1	def. Mount St. Joseph, 74-42; 02/15 at Manchester
#9	428	Wartburg	19-3	def. Buena Vista, 95-59; 02/15 vs. Simpson
#10	378	Loras	21-2	won at Dubuque, 86-54
#11	360	Bethel	21-1	won at #19 St. Thomas, 65-49; 02/15 at Gustavus Adolphus
#12	333	Baldwin Wallace	20-2	def. #21 John Carroll, 80-77; 02/15 at Capital
#13	320	Trinity (Texas)	18-3	02/14 at JWU-Denver; 02/15 at Colorado College
#14	297	Augsburg	19-3	def. Hamline, 78-66; 02/15 at Macalester
#15	286	Oglethorpe	23-1	02/15 at Berry
#16	251	Scranton	19-3	def. Moravian, 64-57; 02/15 at Juniata
#17	217	Mary Hardin-Baylor	17-4	02/13 at T#36 East Texas Baptist; 02/15 at LeTourneau
#18	190	George Fox	17-4	02/14 at #7 Whitman; 02/15 at Whitworth
#19	189	St. Thomas	17-5	LOST to #11 Bethel, 49-65; 02/15 at St. Benedict
#20	125	Texas-Dallas	17-4	02/13 at Belhaven; 02/15 at Louisiana College
#21	111	John Carroll	19-3	LOST at #12 Baldwin Wallace, 77-80; 02/15 vs. Ohio Northern
#22	92	Gettysburg	20-2	def. McDaniel, 71-57; 02/15 at Washington College
#23	81	Austin	18-3	02/14 vs. Southwestern; 02/15 vs. Texas Lutheran
#24	78	Chicago	15-5	02/14 vs. Carnegie Mellon; 02/16 vs. Case Western Reserve
#25	31	DeSales	18-4	def. Stevens, 70-50; 02/15 at T#32 Misericordia

Others receiving votes

Rank	Pts	Team	W-L	Results
T#26	30	Albright	19-3	LOST at Widener, 68-69; 02/15 vs. Lycoming
T#26	30	Trine	18-4	won at #34 Albion, 66-50; 02/15 vs. Adrian
#28	29	Messiah	19-4	won at Stevenson, 65-49
#29	19	UW-La Crosse	16-6	won at UW-Stout, 76-61; 02/15 vs. UW-Stevens Point
#30	18	Haverford	19-3	won at Muhlenberg, 66-51; 02/15 vs. McDaniel
#31	14	Emory	15-5	02/14 vs. T#38 New York University; 02/16 vs. Brandeis
T#32	9	Hardin-Simmons	17-4	02/13 at Howard Payne; 02/15 at Sul Ross State
T#32	9	Misericordia	20-2	won at Wilkes, 66-58; 02/15 vs. #25 DeSales
#34	8	Albion	18-5	LOST to T#26 Trine, 50-66; 02/15 vs. Calvin
#35	7	Catholic	18-4	def. Juniata, 78-66; 02/15 vs. Susquehanna
T#36	5	Benedictine	20-2	def. Illinois Tech, 75-31; 02/15 at Lakeland
T#36	5	East Texas Baptist	16-5	02/13 vs. #17 Mary Hardin-Baylor; 02/15 vs. Concordia (Texas)
T#38	4	Christopher Newport	19-4	def. St. Mary's (Md.), 89-49; 02/15 vs. Salisbury
T#38	4	New York University	16-4	02/14 at #31 Emory; 02/16 at Rochester

[Ron Boerger]

question.  does NCAA look at regional ranking as a criteria to determine host university in round of 64/32?  I know they balance "within 500 miles" for "pods" as much as possible due to travel costs incurred by NCAA.

My experience (in multiple sports) is that the highest RRO-ranked team that can host while at the same time minimizing travel costs is the one that will host, assuming the school submitted the paperwork and meets the NCAA's requirements.   In an ideal world this would not be a consideration but if the AA can save money on a flight or two, they're going to do it.

[Ron Boerger]

Honest question for those more in the know than I; why is William Peace still getting zero respect from the d3hoops pollsters?  20-2 record against D3, .535 SOS, both in-division losses against respectable teams (if the second was poorly timed)?   Is it that their best win (after a very cursory look at the schedule) came against CNU?   They're third in the first south regional rankings and (again after a very cursory look at the schedule) have a 2-0 record vs. teams ranked this week (Mary Washington being the other), which again might answer my question.   

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

So Scrantons loss to Gf is a regional loss?Because I remember Scranton Playing Whitewater and beating them in vegas or beating Tufts in Puerto Rico never counting as a regional loss or win?When did this change and why or am I wrong!Just asking ?

If you play 70% of your games against regional opponents (including the NCAA administrative region), all d3 games count as in-region.   It's been that way for 5-6 years now, at least.

[Ithaca798891]

It isn't stated, for example, whether a loss to a #2 is better, equal, or worse than 2 wins over #6 or 7.

But the relative strengths of #2, or #6, or #7 aren't going to be static—from region to region or even from year to year within a region.

[ronk]

It isn't stated, for example, whether a loss to a #2 is better, equal, or worse than 2 wins over #6 or 7.

But the relative strengths of #2, or #6, or #7 aren't going to be static—from region to region or even from year to year within a region.

Agreed, it was merely a generic example to examine whether the vrro won-loss # was going to be qualified further, that is, beyond the raw #, no matter which region/teams/years.
  When vrro is listed next week in the regional rankings for the 1st time, it will be a w-l #, w/o qualification. I'm saying if they're going to qualify it, it ought to be stated in the primary criteria.

[Pat Coleman]

Dave go back to 2008 season it says it right there!

Things change in 12 years, sir. Indeed, once upon a time, it was termed "wins" but that is a long time ago.

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

I'm not arguing that it's a raw # vs results; a game played is a result; you 3 are saying it's more than a result or a game played; that it matters whether it is a win, loss, and who it was against. I'm saying the criteria ought to list it that way then and what the priority is among wins, losses, and opponent rank(in a manner similar to 2 wins = .03 in the SOS). It isn't stated, for example, whether a loss to a #2 is better, equal, or worse than 2 wins over #6 or 7.

That .03 to 2 wins isn't written anywhere either.  In fact, it's not something they use.  It was a statistical measurement of how committees, in the past, had valued those two things against each other (and it was only applicable to the men's committee anyway).  Yes, for a few years, the men's committee appeared to be using it and talked about it, but it was never in the criteria itself.  Once they realized it was a descriptive number and not a prescriptive one, they've moved away.  From the men's numbers yesterday, it's pretty clear there's no hard and fast rule anymore.

If it's all just going to be numbers, there's no need for a committee.  They have to have room for interpretation.  The criteria just tries to assure that criteria isn't "they looked pretty good to me."

[VT-Alum-NOVA]

Honest question for those more in the know than I; why is William Peace still getting zero respect from the d3hoops pollsters?  20-2 record against D3, .535 SOS, both in-division losses against respectable teams (if the second was poorly timed)?   Is it that their best win (after a very cursory look at the schedule) came against CNU?   They're third in the first south regional rankings and (again after a very cursory look at the schedule) have a 2-0 record vs. teams ranked this week (Mary Washington being the other), which again might answer my question.

that Averett loss was pretty bad and most likely removed any votes they may have gotten

[scottiedawg]

William Peace
NCAA SOS = 175
Massey = 89
Massey SOS = 183

so their Win% is good, but that's about it.

But not sure how different they are from Transylvania? One more loss for sure. But T's NCAA SOS is 244, yikes!

[gordonmann]

I'm glad you asked about William Peace because I have the same question.

As the poll administrator, I distribute a packet of info to the voters each Sunday that covers each of the teams that are receiving votes, whether they are already ranked or only getting a single vote as No. 25. I then add information for a few teams that aren't getting votes but I think are worth at least thinking about. That way we don't have "group think" or a stale batch of Top 25 teams entering and dropping out of the poll.

William Peace was on my list of "Also think about..." teams for a couple weeks in a row, and no one voted for them, myself included. I personally had William Peace just outside the Top 25 a couple times but didn't pull the trigger because the USA South hasn't produced a Top 25 caliber team in a long time and it's hard to evaluate those teams when they primarily play each other or ODAC teams, which have the same problem (big conference and no recent national profile).

After a couple weeks of Peace not drawing a vote, I removed them from the "also think about" list because I didn't want voters to get the impression I was pushing for them. When a couple teams took losses last week, I added a bunch of "also think about" teams -- Christopher Newport, Haverford, Marymount, Eastern Connecticut and maybe one more.

I was looking forward to giving Peace a chance (especially since CNU was getting one) and adding them to the list. Then I noticed they lost to Averett. Bummer.

Now the Pacers probably have to win the USA South to get consideration.

[Baldini]

From glancing at their non-conference schedule I would not of guessed that Transylvania's SOS would be that low. Because they play 18 conferences games they only had 7 non-conference and I thought it was a good group for them.

Spalding 12-10, tied for 3rd in the SLIAC
Berea 21-3, 1st in the USAC
Wittenberg 17-6, 3rd in the NCAC
Maryville (Tenn.) 16-7, 4th in the USAC
Redlands 16-6, 1st in the SCIAC
Monmouth 17-5, 2nd in the MWC
UC-Santa Cruz 12-11, 2nd in the ACAA

It is not murderers row, but not any tomato cans either.   

[scottiedawg]

I think their OOWP is dragging them down. It's ~300th.

[VT-Alum-NOVA]

I'm glad you asked about William Peace because I have the same question.

As the poll administrator, I distribute a packet of info to the voters each Sunday that covers each of the teams that are receiving votes, whether they are already ranked or only getting a single vote as No. 25. I then add information for a few teams that aren't getting votes but I think are worth at least thinking about. That way we don't have "group think" or a stale batch of Top 25 teams entering and dropping out of the poll.

William Peace was on my list of "Also think about..." teams for a couple weeks in a row, and no one voted for them, myself included. I personally had William Peace just outside the Top 25 a couple times but didn't pull the trigger because the USA South hasn't produced a Top 25 caliber team in a long time and it's hard to evaluate those teams when they primarily play each other or ODAC teams, which have the same problem (big conference and no recent national profile).

After a couple weeks of Peace not drawing a vote, I removed them from the "also think about" list because I didn't want voters to get the impression I was pushing for them. When a couple teams took losses last week, I added a bunch of "also think about" teams -- Christopher Newport, Haverford, Marymount, Eastern Connecticut and maybe one more.

I was looking forward to giving Peace a chance (especially since CNU was getting one) and adding them to the list. Then I noticed they lost to Averett. Bummer.

Now the Pacers probably have to win the USA South to get consideration.

THANK YOU for the insight!  Peace added an infusion of transfer players that helped a lot.  this year, 2 of 3 top scorers were not on roster in '18-'19 and they average 23+ minutes per game.  Entire roster also grew tremendously from last year 17 to 27 players.  so before Averett loss, they were worth mentioning due to changes.

[lefty2]

I'm glad you asked about William Peace because I have the same question.

As the poll administrator, I distribute a packet of info to the voters each Sunday that covers each of the teams that are receiving votes, whether they are already ranked or only getting a single vote as No. 25. I then add information for a few teams that aren't getting votes but I think are worth at least thinking about. That way we don't have "group think" or a stale batch of Top 25 teams entering and dropping out of the poll.

William Peace was on my list of "Also think about..." teams for a couple weeks in a row, and no one voted for them, myself included. I personally had William Peace just outside the Top 25 a couple times but didn't pull the trigger because the USA South hasn't produced a Top 25 caliber team in a long time and it's hard to evaluate those teams when they primarily play each other or ODAC teams, which have the same problem (big conference and no recent national profile).

After a couple weeks of Peace not drawing a vote, I removed them from the "also think about" list because I didn't want voters to get the impression I was pushing for them. When a couple teams took losses last week, I added a bunch of "also think about" teams -- Christopher Newport, Haverford, Marymount, Eastern Connecticut and maybe one more.

I was looking forward to giving Peace a chance (especially since CNU was getting one) and adding them to the list. Then I noticed they lost to Averett. Bummer.

Now the Pacers probably have to win the USA South to get consideration.

giving Peace a chance...  nice.