Top 25 discussion

[VT-Alum-NOVA]

I wonder with 1st Regional Rankings out; if on next round of voting on d3hoops top 25, will there be some movement to align more to regional rankings?
for example, in Mid-Atlantic Region, will Scranton (#16 but #3 in Region) drop a bit or Messiah rise a little (#28 but #1 in region) in top 25 so there is not 16 teams between (one being Gettysburg).  having #1 team in region not even in top 25; is that strange?

[Pat Coleman]

In the past, the voters haven't generally done some big alignment shift to match the regional rankings. They are two different rankings which have no ties to one another.

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

The first Regional Rankings of the season are out and there are plenty of reactions ... and questions.

On Thursday's Hoopsville, we chat with a few programs who are in those rankings and others who know the best way into the NCAA tournaments is to win their conference. Plus, we find out how a fast break is a solid investment in giving back. And do you really understand the Strength of Schedule math and what is does, and does not, tell the ranking committees?

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[VT-Alum-NOVA]

In the past, the voters haven't generally done some big alignment shift to match the regional rankings. They are two different rankings which have no ties to one another.

but you have to think voters at least "look/peek" at regional rankings as another data point before submitting their votes on Sunday

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

In the past, the voters haven't generally done some big alignment shift to match the regional rankings. They are two different rankings which have no ties to one another.

but you have to think voters at least "look/peek" at regional rankings as another data point before submitting their votes on Sunday

I am sure voters will look at it ... but that is set criteria.

Voters in the Top 25 tend to use a lot of other data other than just the NCAA stuff to come up with their ballots. I don't tend to see any DIII Top 25s that swing towards the regional rankings.

[biggforce34]

I'm glad you asked about William Peace because I have the same question.

As the poll administrator, I distribute a packet of info to the voters each Sunday that covers each of the teams that are receiving votes, whether they are already ranked or only getting a single vote as No. 25. I then add information for a few teams that aren't getting votes but I think are worth at least thinking about. That way we don't have "group think" or a stale batch of Top 25 teams entering and dropping out of the poll.

William Peace was on my list of "Also think about..." teams for a couple weeks in a row, and no one voted for them, myself included. I personally had William Peace just outside the Top 25 a couple times but didn't pull the trigger because the USA South hasn't produced a Top 25 caliber team in a long time and it's hard to evaluate those teams when they primarily play each other or ODAC teams, which have the same problem (big conference and no recent national profile).

After a couple weeks of Peace not drawing a vote, I removed them from the "also think about" list because I didn't want voters to get the impression I was pushing for them. When a couple teams took losses last week, I added a bunch of "also think about" teams -- Christopher Newport, Haverford, Marymount, Eastern Connecticut and maybe one more.

I was looking forward to giving Peace a chance (especially since CNU was getting one) and adding them to the list. Then I noticed they lost to Averett. Bummer.

Now the Pacers probably have to win the USA South to get consideration.

William Peace has been receiving at least 1 vote or more for the past four weeks in the WBCA NCAA Division III Top 25 Coaches Poll. In the most recent poll they received 7 votes with CNU right behind them with 4 votes. Interesting you mention CNU - took a loss to Meredith College who is also in the USA South Athletic Conference and is 8-16.

WPU has two losses in NCAA Division III both to teams who have winning records at 16-8 each - Piedmont who won the USA South Athletic Conference tournament championship 3 years in a row and also to Averett who is currently 3rd in USA South East standings and won the USA South East Division last year and made it all the way to the semi-finals of the conference tournament.

Before the loss to Averett they had won 15 games in a row, with wins against CNU, Mary Washington and undefeated vs. ODAC teams with wins over 3 teams that sit in the top 7 of the standings - (Bridgewater, Randolph Macon, and Guilford - also to mention that Guilford was at one point ranked 25th at 6-0 with 3 of those wins vs. USA South Teams - Meredith, Mary Baldwin and Pfeiffer??? -   WPU 21-3 with one of three losses coming vs. NCAA Division II opponent and the other two losses to teams that have winning records.

First regional rankings show WPU 3rd in the South Region - higher than two teams in the south region who are ranked in the top 25.

WPU is led by 2nd year head coach Grahm Smith - has completely turned the program around in just his second year there. 2018-19 team returned only 3 players from previous year where they won 4 games - WPU had 12 game increase in wins at 16-11 with conference tournament appearance and advanced to quarterfinal round. 2019-20 team returned only 3 players from 2018-19 team and has set the record for most wins in a season at 21.

[Swish3]

I'm glad you asked about William Peace because I have the same question.

As the poll administrator, I distribute a packet of info to the voters each Sunday that covers each of the teams that are receiving votes, whether they are already ranked or only getting a single vote as No. 25. I then add information for a few teams that aren't getting votes but I think are worth at least thinking about. That way we don't have "group think" or a stale batch of Top 25 teams entering and dropping out of the poll.

William Peace was on my list of "Also think about..." teams for a couple weeks in a row, and no one voted for them, myself included. I personally had William Peace just outside the Top 25 a couple times but didn't pull the trigger because the USA South hasn't produced a Top 25 caliber team in a long time and it's hard to evaluate those teams when they primarily play each other or ODAC teams, which have the same problem (big conference and no recent national profile).

After a couple weeks of Peace not drawing a vote, I removed them from the "also think about" list because I didn't want voters to get the impression I was pushing for them. When a couple teams took losses last week, I added a bunch of "also think about" teams -- Christopher Newport, Haverford, Marymount, Eastern Connecticut and maybe one more.

I was looking forward to giving Peace a chance (especially since CNU was getting one) and adding them to the list. Then I noticed they lost to Averett. Bummer.

Now the Pacers probably have to win the USA South to get consideration.

William Peace has been receiving at least 1 vote or more for the past four weeks in the WBCA NCAA Division III Top 25 Coaches Poll. In the most recent poll they received 7 votes with CNU right behind them with 4 votes. Interesting you mention CNU - took a loss to Meredith College who is also in the USA South Athletic Conference and is 8-16.

WPU has two losses in NCAA Division III both to teams who have winning records at 16-8 each - Piedmont who won the USA South Athletic Conference tournament championship 3 years in a row and also to Averett who is currently 3rd in USA South East standings and won the USA South East Division last year and made it all the way to the semi-finals of the conference tournament.

Before the loss to Averett they had won 15 games in a row, with wins against CNU, Mary Washington and undefeated vs. ODAC teams with wins over 3 teams that sit in the top 7 of the standings - (Bridgewater, Randolph Macon, and Guilford - also to mention that Guilford was at one point ranked 25th at 6-0 with 3 of those wins vs. USA South Teams - Meredith, Mary Baldwin and Pfeiffer??? -   WPU 21-3 with one of three losses coming vs. NCAA Division II opponent and the other two losses to teams that have winning records.

First regional rankings show WPU 3rd in the South Region - higher than two teams in the south region who are ranked in the top 25.

WPU is led by 2nd year head coach Grahm Smith - has completely turned the program around in just his second year there. 2018-19 team returned only 3 players from previous year where they won 4 games - WPU had 12 game increase in wins at 16-11 with conference tournament appearance and advanced to quarterfinal round. 2019-20 team returned only 3 players from 2018-19 team and has set the record for most wins in a season at 21.

Smith must be a great coach and recruiter...I haven't seen WP play, but strictly from a numbers/scientific stand point, their overall sos is pretty bad, per Massey.  Their schedule is likely a big part of the problem...plus, they're more of an up and coming team right now...keep winning consistently against solid opponents and things will take care of themselves...nice win over CNU, by the way.

[Caz Bombers]

hi Coach Smith, thanks for joining the D3 boards and posting

[Ron Boerger]

hi Coach Smith, thanks for joining the D3 boards and posting

LOL that's hilarious, and even better, it's true.  +1 Caz.

[Pat Coleman]

Appreciate your post, coach, but hope your team wins the automatic bid and at least one NCAA Tournament game. As you continue to build that program, I hope you venture up to face some of the quality Division III teams outside the South Atlantic footprint.

[biggforce34]

Didn't know there was a "Welcoming Committee"! Thanks for having me! Truly a privilege and honor to be a part of it! Really appreciate the warm welcome with open arms!! You guys are the best!

[dukefan1210]

Kind of a moot point now that Gettysburg lost to Washington today, but what benefit does the Centennial Conference get out of a team like Bryn Mawr?  They constantly win 0 or 1 games and it has to hurt the strength of schedule of the whole conference since they make it an eleven team conference.

I'm sure Gettysburg and Haverford would both rather have even a .500 team from out of conference on their schedule for Pool C purposes since someone has to lose in the conference tournament.

[gordonmann]

Not too long ago, Bryn Mawr did not play in the conference, for just that reason.

https://www.d3hoops.com/teams/Bryn_Mawr/women/2019-20/index

Notice they are listed as 0-0 from 2013-14 through 2015-16.

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

Kind of a moot point now that Gettysburg lost to Washington today, but what benefit does the Centennial Conference get out of a team like Bryn Mawr?  They constantly win 0 or 1 games and it has to hurt the strength of schedule of the whole conference since they make it an eleven team conference.

I'm sure Gettysburg and Haverford would both rather have even a .500 team from out of conference on their schedule for Pool C purposes since someone has to lose in the conference tournament.

Just an aside, I believe Gettysburg has been dealing with at least half of its team sick. It seems to have affect the squad the last two games.

I have talked a lot about Bryn Mawr and it's place, or not, in the Centennial. One of my suggestions is being part of an all-women's conference stretching down to Atlanta, but I'll keep it at that. I've mentioned it I think the "Conference Changes" board on the men's multi-regional section, but I could be wrong.

But yes ... Bryn Mawr hurts the conference in several ways. Gordon's reference about not playing the full compliment of conferences games happened at least two seasons in a row with the first season being a very late decision (weeks before the first games started). That hurt the SOS even more (single game) especially since teams didn't have time to find another game to add.

And it gets more complicated from there...

[dukefan1210]

Thanks Dave.  I know they were short a starter last Saturday and the men had 6 not in uniform on Wednesday against McDaniel, so who knows how under the weather everyone else is.

I'm sure if it wasn't complicated they would have figured something out by now.  I'm sure academics and having a wide range of schools in the conference are a positive but when the top teams can play bench players who see limited minutes the entire game and win by 25, it seems like a red flag.