Top 25 discussion

[gordonmann]

Amherst looked like it was in big trouble down nine with just 35 points entering the fourth quarter, but the Mammoths rallied, hit a couple threes and played their usual suffocating defense. They win 62-53. Tufts did not have Maggie Russell who's averaging a double-double.

[Riley Zayas]

Amherst looked like it was in big trouble down nine with just 35 points entering the fourth quarter, but the Mammoths rallied, hit a couple threes and played their usual suffocating defense. They win 62-53. Tufts did not have Maggie Russell who's averaging a double-double.

Yeah, Amherst struggled early on, and after the Bates loss yesterday, I was interested to see how they would respond less than 24 hours after the loss. They rebounded well, as you mentioned played suffocating defense, and were able to use that late fourth quarter run to get the win. Tufts displayed how good of a team it is, even with Russell out. That was really a 50-50 game midway through the fourth.

[Darryl Nester]

How They Fared (Complete)

Top 25

Rank	Pts	Team	W-L	Results
#1	625	Hope	14-0	def. Adrian, 100-54; won at Alma, 94-49; def. Albion, 79-56
#2	585	Christopher Newport	14-0	won at #20 Mary Washington, 68-61
#3	554	Amherst	9-1	01/10 at Lehman canceled; LOST at T#31 Bates, 49-52; won at #9 Tufts, 62-53
#4	528	Transylvania	12-0	01/12 vs. Mount St. Joseph postponed; def. Wilmington, 75-42; won at Anderson, 68-36
#5	503	Simpson	14-1	won at Nebraska Wesleyan, 94-54; won at Dubuque, 97-59
#6	490	Trine	12-2	def. Alma, 65-49; won at St. Mary's (Ind.), 85-36
#7	488	Whitman	12-1	def. Pacific Lutheran, 86-59; def. #37 Puget Sound, 63-51
#8	470	UW-Whitewater	15-1	won at UW-Platteville, 62-53; def. UW-River Falls, 86-62
#9	440	Tufts	11-2	def. Hamilton, 55-45; LOST to #3 Amherst, 53-62
#10	371	New York University	12-0	def. Case Western Reserve, 86-62; def. Carnegie Mellon, 79-58
#11	334	UW-Eau Claire	12-4	LOST to UW-Stout, 68-72; won at UW-La Crosse, 53-48
#12	303	John Carroll	11-2	won at Otterbein, 52-47; won at Wilmington, 76-56
#13	280	Wartburg	11-2	def. Coe, 80-53; 01/15 vs. Buena Vista postponed
#14	275	East Texas Baptist	10-3	LOST to #27 Mary Hardin-Baylor, 70-72 OT; def. Concordia (Texas), 61-37
#15	254	Baldwin Wallace	10-2	def. Ohio Northern, 58-41; 01/15 at Capital canceled
#16	238	DePauw	12-2	def. Ohio Wesleyan, 59-46
#17	198	Bowdoin	13-3	won at Williams, 63-51; won at Middlebury, 77-72
#18	193	Springfield	14-0	def. Babson, 75-71; def. (n) Wheaton (Mass.), 79-72
#19	141	Hardin-Simmons	12-2	won at Howard Payne, 78-45; won at Sul Ross State, 85-67
#20	129	Mary Washington	13-2	LOST to #2 Christopher Newport, 61-68
#21	123	UW-Oshkosh	11-3	01/12 at UW-Stevens Point canceled; 01/15 vs. UW-Stout canceled
#22	120	Marietta	14-1	won at Mount Union, 70-67; def. Heidelberg, 91-52
#23	88	Wisconsin Lutheran	11-0	def. St. Norbert, 50-47; won at Dominican, 59-40
#24	63	Texas-Dallas	7-3	def. University of the Ozarks, 80-47
#25	61	St. John Fisher	12-1	def. T#42 Utica, 84-51; won at Elmira, 73-45

Others receiving votes

Rank	Pts	Team	W-L	Results
#26	46	Messiah	11-2	won at Stevenson, 68-57
#27	39	Mary Hardin-Baylor	12-2	won at #14 East Texas Baptist, 72-70 OT; 01/15 at Belhaven canceled
#28	31	Catholic	11-1	def. T#42 Drew, 58-52
#29	28	Smith	10-1	01/10 at Westfield State canceled; won at MIT, 77-69
#30	22	Trinity (Texas)	12-2	def. Howard Payne, 90-58; def. University of Dallas, 91-48; won at St. Thomas (Texas), 84-56; won at Colorado College, 70-66
T#31	17	Bates	11-3	won at St. Joseph's (Maine), 73-72; def. #3 Amherst, 52-49; def. Hamilton, 71-59
T#31	17	Gettysburg	10-2	won at Muhlenberg, 70-35; won at Franklin and Marshall, 65-40; def. Swarthmore, 56-46
T#31	17	Roger Williams	12-0	def. Salve Regina, 72-55; won at University of New England, 58-46
#34	13	Scranton	12-2	def. Clarks Summit, 69-56; won at Susquehanna, 51-44; won at Goucher, 65-35
T#35	8	Augsburg	10-3	won at St. Mary's (Minn.), 56-49; def. Concordia-Moorhead, 63-44; won at St. Benedict, 64-63
T#35	8	St. Lawrence	11-1	LOST to Ithaca, 70-71 OT; def. RPI, 66-52
#37	7	Puget Sound	12-2	won at Whitworth, 82-59; LOST at #7 Whitman, 51-63
#38	5	UC Santa Cruz	8-2	IDLE
#39	4	Gustavus Adolphus	10-2	won at St. Benedict, 71-60; won at St. Scholastica, 77-53
T#40	3	Millikin	13-3	def. T#40 Wheaton (Ill.), 68-48; def. Carthage, 62-42
T#40	3	Wheaton (Ill.)	11-4	LOST at T#40 Millikin, 48-68; def. North Central (Ill.), 67-54
T#42	1	Drew	10-1	LOST at #28 Catholic, 52-58
T#42	1	Salisbury	12-2	IDLE
T#42	1	Utica	12-2	def. Hartwick, 62-56; LOST at #25 St. John Fisher, 51-84; LOST at Nazareth, 51-75

[scottiedawg]

** caveat: I'm not tracking whether any teams were missing key players. I do know CNU didn't have Fan for their narrow win over Mary Washington.

I think 8 wins this week stand out:
John Carroll @ Otterbein
UW-Whitewater @ UW-Platteville
Mary Hardin Baylor @ East Texas Baptist
Amherst @ Tufts
Christopher Newport @ Mary Washington
Hope vs. Albion
Whitman vs. Puget Sound
UW-Eau Claire @ UW-LaCrosse

And 2 bad losses:
East Texas Baptist vs. Mary Hardin Baylor
St. Lawrence vs. Ithaca

I'd love to see Carroll and Ohio Northern jump into the top 25/44 somewhere.

Marietta with a decent road win over Mt. Union. I think they're still under-ranked.

Augsburg a nice 3-0 since last poll. Road win over St. Benedict is good. I think Augsburg would be in the 22-28 range for me.

Wisconsin Lutheran home win over St. Norbert. They should continue to see their vote total rise.

East Texas Baptist needs to freefall. Three losses, none of them particularly noteworthy. One of which was this week hosting MHB. Last win of note was probably 12/4/21 hosting Hardin-Simmons? They are a mid 30s team for me.

I also be dropping Bowdoin. Not because of what they did this week (two road wins against decent teams). I just don't see how their resume is that strong. 3 losses, including a bad one to St. Joseph's Maine. What's their best win? Hosting Smith? I just don't see it. Their a mid 30s team for me as well.

I don't see anything in Christopher Newport's 2021-2022 resume to warrant their ranking. They would be a low teens ranking for me. Check out Wartburg, Whitman, Carroll, DePauw. Similar resumes to CNU and I'd rank all of them slightly ahead.

My top 8 would be:
Hope (but their resume is not as good as a few teams below)
Simpson
UW-Whitewater
Trine
John Carroll
UW-Eau Claire
Marietta
Transylvania (I've changed my tune, they've got a solid resume)

Some games to look forward to this week:
UW-Whitewater @ UW-Eau Claire
UW-Whitewater @ UW-LaCrosse
Baldwin-Wallace @ John Carroll
Trine @ Albion
Marietta @ Ohio Northern
UW-Oshkosh vs. UW-Platteville
NYU @ Chicago
Whitman vs. Pacific
Tufts vs. Bates
NYU @ WashU
Christopher Newport @ Salisbury
Hope vs. Alma
Amherst vs. Williams

[Baldini]

My top 8 would be:
Hope (but their resume is not as good as a few teams below)
Simpson
UW-Whitewater
Trine
John Carroll
UW-Eau Claire
Marietta
Transylvania (I've changed my tune, they've got a solid resume)

Seems like a pretty serious regional bias.

[ronk]

** caveat: I'm not tracking whether any teams were missing key players. I do know CNU didn't have Fan for their narrow win over Mary Washington.

I think 8 wins this week stand out:
John Carroll @ Otterbein
UW-Whitewater @ UW-Platteville
Mary Hardin Baylor @ East Texas Baptist
Amherst @ Tufts
Christopher Newport @ Mary Washington
Hope vs. Albion
Whitman vs. Puget Sound
UW-Eau Claire @ UW-LaCrosse

And 2 bad losses:
East Texas Baptist vs. Mary Hardin Baylor
St. Lawrence vs. Ithaca

I'd love to see Carroll and Ohio Northern jump into the top 25/44 somewhere.

Marietta with a decent road win over Mt. Union. I think they're still under-ranked.

Augsburg a nice 3-0 since last poll. Road win over St. Benedict is good. I think Augsburg would be in the 22-28 range for me.

Wisconsin Lutheran home win over St. Norbert. They should continue to see their vote total rise.

East Texas Baptist needs to freefall. Three losses, none of them particularly noteworthy. One of which was this week hosting MHB. Last win of note was probably 12/4/21 hosting Hardin-Simmons? They are a mid 30s team for me.

I also be dropping Bowdoin. Not because of what they did this week (two road wins against decent teams). I just don't see how their resume is that strong. 3 losses, including a bad one to St. Joseph's Maine. What's their best win? Hosting Smith? I just don't see it. Their a mid 30s team for me as well.

I don't see anything in Christopher Newport's 2021-2022 resume to warrant their ranking. They would be a low teens ranking for me. Check out Wartburg, Whitman, Carroll, DePauw. Similar resumes to CNU and I'd rank all of them slightly ahead.

My top 8 would be:
Hope (but their resume is not as good as a few teams below)
Simpson
UW-Whitewater
Trine
John Carroll
UW-Eau Claire
Marietta
Transylvania (I've changed my tune, they've got a solid resume)

Some games to look forward to this week:
UW-Whitewater @ UW-Eau Claire
UW-Whitewater @ UW-LaCrosse
Baldwin-Wallace @ John Carroll
Trine @ Albion
Marietta @ Ohio Northern
UW-Oshkosh vs. UW-Platteville
NYU @ Chicago
Whitman vs. Pacific
Tufts vs. Bates
NYU @ WashU
Christopher Newport @ Salisbury
Hope vs. Alma
Amherst vs. Williams

Salisbury @ Scranton

[Riley Zayas]

** caveat: I'm not tracking whether any teams were missing key players. I do know CNU didn't have Fan for their narrow win over Mary Washington.

I think 8 wins this week stand out:
John Carroll @ Otterbein
UW-Whitewater @ UW-Platteville
Mary Hardin Baylor @ East Texas Baptist
Amherst @ Tufts
Christopher Newport @ Mary Washington
Hope vs. Albion
Whitman vs. Puget Sound
UW-Eau Claire @ UW-LaCrosse

And 2 bad losses:
East Texas Baptist vs. Mary Hardin Baylor
St. Lawrence vs. Ithaca

I'd love to see Carroll and Ohio Northern jump into the top 25/44 somewhere.

Marietta with a decent road win over Mt. Union. I think they're still under-ranked.

Augsburg a nice 3-0 since last poll. Road win over St. Benedict is good. I think Augsburg would be in the 22-28 range for me.

Wisconsin Lutheran home win over St. Norbert. They should continue to see their vote total rise.

East Texas Baptist needs to freefall. Three losses, none of them particularly noteworthy. One of which was this week hosting MHB. Last win of note was probably 12/4/21 hosting Hardin-Simmons? They are a mid 30s team for me.

I also be dropping Bowdoin. Not because of what they did this week (two road wins against decent teams). I just don't see how their resume is that strong. 3 losses, including a bad one to St. Joseph's Maine. What's their best win? Hosting Smith? I just don't see it. Their a mid 30s team for me as well.

I don't see anything in Christopher Newport's 2021-2022 resume to warrant their ranking. They would be a low teens ranking for me. Check out Wartburg, Whitman, Carroll, DePauw. Similar resumes to CNU and I'd rank all of them slightly ahead.

My top 8 would be:
Hope (but their resume is not as good as a few teams below)
Simpson
UW-Whitewater
Trine
John Carroll
UW-Eau Claire
Marietta
Transylvania (I've changed my tune, they've got a solid resume)

Some games to look forward to this week:
UW-Whitewater @ UW-Eau Claire
UW-Whitewater @ UW-LaCrosse
Baldwin-Wallace @ John Carroll
Trine @ Albion
Marietta @ Ohio Northern
UW-Oshkosh vs. UW-Platteville
NYU @ Chicago
Whitman vs. Pacific
Tufts vs. Bates
NYU @ WashU
Christopher Newport @ Salisbury
Hope vs. Alma
Amherst vs. Williams

I'd have to disagree with your assessment of ETBU...If any of the ASC teams, besides MHB (who is 9-0 in ASC) deserve to be ranked, it's ETBU. They played a phenomenal game against a very good MHB team but could not finish. They need to fall for sure, but not out of the rankings. Without the Hardin-Simmons win, I think they're outside of the Top 25, however. Losing to UTD and MHB does not look good for their resume, I agree, but to me, ETBU is a 20-to-25 team in the rankings. A lot of depth, good defense and good 3-pt shooting on that team.

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

Suddenly we are midway through January and in just six weeks the conversation will be about who is in or out of the NCAA Tournaments. Conference schedules intensify as teams try and position themselves for conference tournaments.

All this while COVID still impacts games and changes conference rules or allowances for postseason tournaments.

On Monday's edition of Hoopsville, we talk to a few more teams still flying a bit under the radar along with one who is just hoping to survive the conference schedule in the best shape as possible.
Plus, we react to the latest Top 25 men's poll in the Double-Take with Ryan Scott,D3hoops.com, and Bob Quillman, IWUHoops.com. And we preview not only the upcoming NCAA Convention but our special on the topic.

You can watch the show LIVE (or on demand) here: https://www.d3hoops.com/hoopsville/archives/2021-22/jan17

We are also simulcasting on our Facebook Live page (www.facebook.com/Hoopsville) and YouTube page (http://www.youtube.com/Hoopsville)

Guests include (order subject to change):
- Steve Lanpham, Randolph women's coach
- Don Friday, PSU-Harrisburg men's coach
- Andy Yosinoff, Emmanuel women's coach
- Ron Rose, No. 4 Illinois Wesleyan men's coach
- Men's Top 25 Double-Take: Ryan Scott, D3hoops.com, and Bob Quillman, IWUHoops.com

Hoopsville is hosted by Dave McHugh from the the NABC Studio. It is presented by D3hoops.com and thanks to our partner WBCA. All guests are featured on the BlueFrame Technology Hoopsville Hotline.

If you have questions, ideas, or want to interact with the show, feel free to send them to hoopsville@d3sports.com or use any of the social media options available.

If you enjoy the show via the podcasts, choose your favorite avenue to listen and/or subscribe via the the following four avenues (click on the images when necessary):
SoundCloud: www.soundcloud.com/hoopsville


 
   
We also have the podcast now on Tune-In and others coming. We will update them once we have better abilities to do so.

Don't forget you can always interact with us:
Website: www.d3hoopsville.com
Video Portal (and archives): www.team1sports.com/Hoopsville
Twitter: @d3hoopsville or #Hoopsville
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Email: hoopsville@d3sports.com
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[scottiedawg]

I'd have to disagree with your assessment of ETBU...If any of the ASC teams, besides MHB (who is 9-0 in ASC) deserve to be ranked, it's ETBU. They played a phenomenal game against a very good MHB team but could not finish. They need to fall for sure, but not out of the rankings. Without the Hardin-Simmons win, I think they're outside of the Top 25, however. Losing to UTD and MHB does not look good for their resume, I agree, but to me, ETBU is a 20-to-25 team in the rankings. A lot of depth, good defense and good 3-pt shooting on that team.

Appreciate the discourse! I don't think our opinions are that dissimilar :-)

I'm definitely pondering and struggling with the very general concept of "how should we decide a team is good?"   Because you have to use some criteria. Either winning percentage, regional ranking, massey, OWP, OOWP, or any other of many many possible criteria. But any decision is likely fraught with personal bias. I'm not sure what the alternative is? Putting every single game and result into a spreadsheet and creating your own criteria from scratch?

If Alvernia beats Averett, how do I know "what kind of" a win that is?   If Emory loses to Endicott, how do I evaluate that, in concrete terms, relative to other results. It's a tough and fascinating question, because obviously all wins are not created equal, nor are losses.

[gordonmann]

Scottie:

I always appreciate the analysis and conversation. What does this phrase mean?

I'd love to see Carroll and Ohio Northern jump into the top 25/44 somewhere.

Also, I'm curious what you like about ONU's resume.

[scottiedawg]

25 teams ranked in the polls but 44 receiving votes. 

I'll dig into ONU more tomorrow to refresh my memory and follow up.

[Riley Zayas]

I'd have to disagree with your assessment of ETBU...If any of the ASC teams, besides MHB (who is 9-0 in ASC) deserve to be ranked, it's ETBU. They played a phenomenal game against a very good MHB team but could not finish. They need to fall for sure, but not out of the rankings. Without the Hardin-Simmons win, I think they're outside of the Top 25, however. Losing to UTD and MHB does not look good for their resume, I agree, but to me, ETBU is a 20-to-25 team in the rankings. A lot of depth, good defense and good 3-pt shooting on that team.

Appreciate the discourse! I don't think our opinions are that dissimilar :-)

I'm definitely pondering and struggling with the very general concept of "how should we decide a team is good?"   Because you have to use some criteria. Either winning percentage, regional ranking, massey, OWP, OOWP, or any other of many many possible criteria. But any decision is likely fraught with personal bias. I'm not sure what the alternative is? Putting every single game and result into a spreadsheet and creating your own criteria from scratch?

If Alvernia beats Averett, how do I know "what kind of" a win that is?   If Emory loses to Endicott, how do I evaluate that, in concrete terms, relative to other results. It's a tough and fascinating question, because obviously all wins are not created equal, nor are losses.

Haha, I'd agree...I can go on for too long about the ASC, just started putting down some thoughts because this might be one of the tighter races we see across women's hoops this year. It's one of those situations where, outside of MHB, those top three teams (ETBU, HSU, UTD) all have beaten at least one of the others in that group. ETBU dropped six spots, HSU moved up 2, and MHB is now in there at No. 24. I agree that there is really no good way to evaluate this...Massey does a good job, but no system is perfect. Honestly, I think that's why we're seeing a team like Bates unranked despite recent wins over Amherst and Bowdoin (Bowdoin win looked much better at the time than it does now). Every voter has their own method. Plus, so much of D3 is reliant on conference play, and because most of the time, teams will play at least twice in a season, there's a lot to consider especially when teams split a regular season series. I've been asking myself the same question!

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

The annual NCAA Convention is this week and it is one of the most important gatherings of Association membership in the modern history of the NCAA. While a lot of eyes will be on Division I, all three Divisions must vote on a new NCAA Constitution. Division III has played an important role in crafting the new constitution as those in the division try and position DIII for the future.

And while the new NCAA Constitution will garner much of the attention this week in Indianapolis, it isn't the only piece of business that Division III needs to consider. There are a number of pieces of legislation DIII presidents, commissioners, and athletics directors will debate and likely vote on as well. Some of those items could have huge impacts on Division III including the sport of basketball.

In this special edition of Hoopsville, Dave McHugh gathers three ADs and a commissioner to have a round table discussion, and get insight, on the Constitution, DIII's role, and the legislation that will be considered. Plus, we react to what is ahead for DIII and the impact some of the legislation could have on DIII and it's student-athletes.

You can watch the show On Demand here: https://www.d3hoops.com/hoopsville/archives/2021-22/ncaa_convention

Guests include:
- Dr. Angel Mason, Director of Athletics for Berry College
- Jason Fein, Director of Athletics for Bates College
- Stefanie 'Stevie' Baker-Watson, Associate Vice President for Wellness and Director of Athletics at DePauw University
- Brad Bankston, Commissioner of the Old Dominion Athletic Conference, former DIII Management Council and Championships Committee member
- Pat Coleman, Editor-in-Chief for D3sports.com

Hoopsville is hosted by Dave McHugh from the the NABC Studio. It is presented by D3hoops.com and thanks to our partner WBCA. All guests are featured on the BlueFrame Technology Hoopsville Hotline.

If you have questions, ideas, or want to interact with the show, feel free to send them to hoopsville@d3sports.com or use any of the social media options available.

If you enjoy the show via the podcasts, choose your favorite avenue to listen and/or subscribe via the the following four avenues (click on the images when necessary):
SoundCloud: www.soundcloud.com/hoopsville


 
   
We also have the podcast now on Tune-In and others coming. We will update them once we have better abilities to do so.

Don't forget you can always interact with us:
Website: www.d3hoopsville.com
Video Portal (and archives): www.team1sports.com/Hoopsville
Twitter: @d3hoopsville or #Hoopsville
Facebook: www.facebook.com/Hoopsville
Email: hoopsville@d3sports.com
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[scottiedawg]

Also, I'm curious what you like about ONU's resume.

Upon revisiting Ohio Northern, I'd say:
* Road win over Ohio Wesleyan is nice
* Competitive road loss to Marietta impresses me more than a LOT of wins by other teams
* Looking actually at the scores, they did get blown out by a very good Trine team, and road loss to B-W wasn't close either.
* Narrow home loss to a very good John Carroll team

I'm absolutely ( sorting through / working out / changing my mind ) what I value most personally. But I value a close loss to a very good team, more than the vast majority of wins (e.g. Hope destroying Olivet, while impressive, really should count for nothing when ranking them relatively against other top teams). I may be totally off base there, winning and losing is binary, and maybe we I should care more about the binary win.


Happy to see Bowdoin and ETBU fall a bit. They both have 2+ "bad losses" (as defined by me!)

and I also think all these teams have at least 1 "bad loss" with no "very impressive win":
Puget Sound
Mary Washington
UT Dallas
Catholic
St. Lawrence
St. John Fisher

So putting ONU above those 8 teams would get them into at least ORV territory.

I would not call ONU a top 25 team by any stretch.

I really like debating these out in the open, and disclosing my priors/assumptions. Thanks for pushing me on ONU.

[Royals85]

So Catholics loss to Scranton is a bad loss lmao??Hope your joking bud