Top 25 discussion

[scottiedawg]

Amherst beat Tufts and Tufts is ranked in the Top 10

I feel like too much weight is put on H2H matchups. Obviously if Amherst is 1-10 with a win over Tufts, and Tufts is 10-1 with a loss to Amherst, they'd be ranked far apart. That's an intentionally extreme hypothetical of course. Overall I put way more stock in a team's 12-14 other games, than in the 1-2 H2H results. Again, just like your question :

Is that the right approach? Or do we count all games equally?

everyone will differ in how much they personally weight H2H.

[scottiedawg]

2) Amherst is still Amherst Do you remember the last time a GP Gromacki led Amherst team played in the NCAA Tournament and lost in the first weekend? It's a trick question -- it hasn't happened! They've been a Top 16 team for over a decade. So I do understand voters giving them the benefit of the doubt, even if I've decided that other teams have a better resume this year. I half expect to hear about this post from Amherst during the second weekend of the tournament, after they shut down some poor host team in the second night of the tournament and beat them by 20. Gromacki's teams are that good defensively.

This is another fascinating aspect to discuss/debate. I feel like the poll should be a reflection of what a team has done. Not their ceiling. Not what their historical track record (e.g. coach) says they probably are. But just what they've done.

[Royals85]

Agree 100% scottiedawg.Just because your name is Amherst doesn't give you an automatic spot in the poll and the same goes for Scranton.The surprise to me is Springfield I understand 15-0 but the teams they beat are not stellar teams!But I guess you have to start somewhere!But one thing about Scranton is they have been winning without Monaghan (Great player and Leader)She just returned to playing she has been out since Christmas Break.So when considering a place like Gordon man did with tufts I like that !!Because in d3 you might have one or two great players not like d1 that has 5 and with one of them players missing makes a big difference in the outcome!

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

2) Amherst is still Amherst Do you remember the last time a GP Gromacki led Amherst team played in the NCAA Tournament and lost in the first weekend? It's a trick question -- it hasn't happened! They've been a Top 16 team for over a decade. So I do understand voters giving them the benefit of the doubt, even if I've decided that other teams have a better resume this year. I half expect to hear about this post from Amherst during the second weekend of the tournament, after they shut down some poor host team in the second night of the tournament and beat them by 20. Gromacki's teams are that good defensively.

This is another fascinating aspect to discuss/debate. I feel like the poll should be a reflection of what a team has done. Not their ceiling. Not what their historical track record (e.g. coach) says they probably are. But just what they've done.

This is definitely the perspective of some voters, but not all.  A lot of voters are using their ballots in an attempt to be predictive - I tend to be among those voters.  If we're just representing what's happened, there's a lot of computers who do it better than I ever could.  Just my perspective.

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

2) Amherst is still Amherst Do you remember the last time a GP Gromacki led Amherst team played in the NCAA Tournament and lost in the first weekend? It's a trick question -- it hasn't happened! They've been a Top 16 team for over a decade. So I do understand voters giving them the benefit of the doubt, even if I've decided that other teams have a better resume this year. I half expect to hear about this post from Amherst during the second weekend of the tournament, after they shut down some poor host team in the second night of the tournament and beat them by 20. Gromacki's teams are that good defensively.

This is another fascinating aspect to discuss/debate. I feel like the poll should be a reflection of what a team has done. Not their ceiling. Not what their historical track record (e.g. coach) says they probably are. But just what they've done.

Sure ... don't disagree ... but at the same time, there are teams like Amherst under GP Gromacki who prove to still be damn good teams even when they look ugly. While the past and history shouldn't technically be considered, we are talking about one of the rare teams and coaches whose history has proven when things look questionable ... they aren't really. Hard I am sure for some voters to just throw their hands up and figure Amherst isn't as good when they have likely done that in the past only to be proven wrong.

It is a challenging equation in this circumstance to be sure.

We are also looking at this season through the prism of a "normal" season when the coronavirus has had impacts large and small everywhere. It is VERY hard to gauge teams when there are unknowns you can put your finger on AND there are games where clearly individuals are missing (or not so clear, they aren't fully healthy).

[scottiedawg]

This is definitely the perspective of some voters, but not all.  A lot of voters are using their ballots in an attempt to be predictive - I tend to be among those voters.  If we're just representing what's happened, there's a lot of computers who do it better than I ever could.  Just my perspective.

Very true. There's questionable overlap/similarities between all:

D3Hoops.com poll != Massey != NCAA selection criteria != past performance != predictor of future

[gordonmann]

I don't have Springfield on my ballot either. I want to see them play Smith (also not on my ballot) first.

[RogK]

Fortunately Major League Baseball doesn't need a committee vote to decide who makes the postseason.
The standings are the final word and games in April count the same as those in September. (Perfectly fair, except that the schedules are not balanced due to the divisions. Before 1961-62 expansion it was balanced, each MLB team playing the other seven in their league 22 times.) .. (balanced 9 opponents x 18 games through 1968 also)
In contrast, D3 WBB basketball teams have time to play against only 5% or fewer of the potential 420+ opponents. So, there will always be controversy over the rankings and tournament selections.

[Pat Coleman]

I have seen teams lose two games in 3 weeks and fall out of the top 25!!!

What spot was this hypothetical team starting from?

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

I have seen teams lose two games in 3 weeks and fall out of the top 25!!!

What spot was this hypothetical team starting from?

I mean there was a #1 team in the men's poll that once lost three times in a row ... and didn't fall out of the poll (they certainly fell out of #1).

The point Pat is raising ... there is context and individual situations that dictate how voters will react to this type of scenario.

[Royals85]

9th

[Royals85]

First off it wasn't hypothetical it happened Desales went from 9th and flew off the screen.Like Saratoga said Amherst lost to an 8-8 team the week before they lost to bates but beat Tufts.I understand alot of weight is put on h2h but losing to an 8-8 team outweighs beating Tufts at home.So as a fan I just want some answer not here to get a gotcha question.So please when referring to my question dont give a hypothetical question !I'm not sure who votes but would love to hear from them about what makes you push one team out after losing two games but keep one in by only pushing g them down 4 spots?That's all nothing personal

[IC798891]

what makes you push one team out after losing two games but keep one in by only pushing g them down 4 spots?That's all nothing personal

If you're going to demand explanations, having your facts straight is a good starting point.

DeSales was ranked 9th in this year's preseason poll. The next ranking (Week 1) that had them out of the Top 25 was based on games through November 28, at which point DeSales was 2-3.

[Royals85]

Exactly right so my question still stands why treat one team that loses two games in one week differently?I'm not sure if Gordon,Ryan are voters but it seems like when Amherst loses- the top 25 voters give them a pass compared to a Desales,Messiah etc.They lost to an 8-8 team and dropped 4 spots total they have two losses and moved from 7th to 11th and a better picture was didnt play a game in a month while other teams played and moved up to 3rd.All I'm saying is be accurate when doing your polling.I understand Amherst by what I read is some idols on this board .For instance when they lost I mentioned and someone replied (Oh because they didn't have all players)It was a false statement because they had all players.So when you hear stuff like that it makes you think do you hold one team differently then others when voting?

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

You gotta vote for 25 teams, whether you want to or not.