Top 25 discussion

[WUPHF]

Regarding NYU, the 2000-01 team made it to #1 in the WBCA poll (that season's polls are no longer archived by the WBCA) when Dari Magyar made her "Miracle in Manhattan" buzzer beating 3 point shot at the then Coles Sports Center to defeat #1 Wash U, 65-64 , handing Wash U their first UAA loss and second loss overall since the end of the 1997-98 season.  A few weeks earlier, Fontbonne had ended Wash U's 81 game winning streak.  NYU was ranked at #4 in the D3Hoops.com poll entering the rematch at Coles Center-- Wash U had beaten NYU 72-37 in St. Louis eariler that season. 

Interestingly, NYU lost the prior match-up to Washington University in St. Louis that season by a score of 72-37.  That is how good that Bears were that season.

NYU was surely the No. 1 team in 1997 when they won the national championship.

Just as with Meg Barber, the coach of that championship team, Janice Quinn, was a star player for the Violets.

[Darryl Nester]

How They Fared (Complete)

New poll comes out tomorrow; this report includes results through today (except for two late games).

Top 25

Rank	Pts	Team	W-L	Results
#1	620	New York University	10-0	def. Stockton, 85-27; def. #26 Bowdoin, 78-75
#2	570	Transylvania	12-0	won at Manchester, 76-44; def. Wisconsin Lutheran, 53-45; def. Berea, 82-55
#3	568	Trinity (Texas)	13-0	def. #16 Mary Hardin-Baylor, 74-63; def. #20 Puget Sound, 78-69; def. Schreiner, 74-60; def. Colorado College, 74-63
#4	545	Christopher Newport	13-0	def. (n) T#29 Cortland, 89-49; def. Rowan, 93-60; won at Meredith, 94-52
#5	512	Hope	11-1	def. (n) Carnegie Mellon, 85-66; def. (n) Otterbein, 89-71
#6	496	Amherst	9-2	def. (n) Montclair State, 61-51; LOST to (n) Concordia-Moorhead, 68-79 2OT; def. (n) Whittier, 53-42; LOST at Chapman, 64-69
#7	478	Scranton	12-0	def. (n) Wartburg, 59-37; def. (n) Rhodes, 76-51; def. (n) George Fox, 80-47; def. (n) #19 Tufts, 68-59
#8	463	Baldwin Wallace	11-0	def. Manchester, 74-36; def. Hamilton, 72-65
#9	390	Babson	10-1	LOST to (n) Loras, 52-73; def. (n) Hanover, 66-65; def. Middlebury, 60-51; def. Endicott, 76-51
#10	359	Trine	10-3	def. (n) North Park, 65-51; def. (n) Wartburg, 60-56; LOST to (n) #15 UW-Eau Claire, 68-75; def. (n) Marian, 73-38
#11	356	Smith	10-1	def. Bridgewater State, 88-67; def. Mass-Dartmouth, 78-58
#12	334	DeSales	12-0	won at Cabrini, 68-50; def. (n) St. Joseph (Conn.), 70-53; def. (n) CCNY, 82-18
#13	312	Springfield	10-2	LOST to #28 Trinity (Conn.), 45-58; def. Wilkes, 60-30
#14	270	Chicago	11-0	def. Knox, 72-42
#15	263	UW-Eau Claire	11-2	def. (n) #10 Trine, 75-68; won at DePauw, 65-51
#16	228	Mary Hardin-Baylor	9-3	LOST at #3 Trinity (Texas), 63-74; LOST to (n) #20 Puget Sound, 58-59; def. Piedmont, 83-45; def. #18 UC Santa Cruz, 60-49
#17	202	Rochester	9-1	IDLE
#18	189	UC Santa Cruz	10-3	LOST to #21 UW-Whitewater, 60-61; def. Minnesota-Morris, 71-51; 01/01 at Concordia (Texas) canceled; LOST at #16 Mary Hardin-Baylor, 49-60
#19	188	Tufts	9-3	won at T#31 Stevens, 62-49; LOST to (n) #7 Scranton, 59-68; won at New Jersey City, 79-52
#20	154	Puget Sound	9-2	def. (n) #16 Mary Hardin-Baylor, 59-58; LOST at #3 Trinity (Texas), 69-78
#21	130	UW-Whitewater	10-3	won at #18 UC Santa Cruz, 61-60; def. (n) Minnesota-Morris, 82-45; def. Bethel, 67-50
#22	99	Hardin-Simmons	11-2	def. Texas-Dallas, 83-60; def. (n) SUNY Geneseo, 60-52; def. (n) Adrian, 79-55
#23	98	Calvin	9-3	def. Cornerstone, 71-55; LOST at Loras, 54-73; def. Wheaton, 72-68
#24	52	Ithaca	7-2	def. Hamilton, 57-44
#25	44	Ohio Northern	10-1	def. (n) Denison, 60-50; def. (n) Bethany, 76-55

Others receiving votes

Rank	Pts	Team	W-L	Results
#26	36	Bowdoin	8-2	def. (n) St. Joseph's (L.I.), 93-55; LOST at #1 New York University, 75-78
#27	26	Mary Washington	11-2	LOST at Johns Hopkins, 52-56; def. Shenandoah, 65-57; 01/02 vs. Swarthmore
#28	25	Trinity (Conn.)	11-1	won at #13 Springfield, 58-45; def. (n) Skidmore, 59-57
T#29	15	Cortland	9-2	LOST to (n) #4 Christopher Newport, 49-89; def. (n) Dickinson, 63-54
T#29	15	Emory	7-1	IDLE
T#31	14	Gustavus Adolphus	8-1	won at Luther, 84-50
T#31	14	Stevens	10-2	LOST to #19 Tufts, 49-62; def. George Fox, 73-46
#33	12	Whitman	6-4	12/28 vs. Cal Lutheran canceled
#34	11	East Texas Baptist	9-2	def. (n) Piedmont, 76-62
T#35	9	Marymount	10-2	LOST at Washington and Lee, 68-78
T#35	9	Washington and Jefferson	11-1	won at Carnegie Mellon, 56-48; def. York (Pa.), 55-29
#37	6	UW-Oshkosh	9-3	LOST to (n) Randolph-Macon, 49-55; def. (n) Roanoke, 70-49; def. Washington U., 78-42; def. Ripon, 61-53
#38	5	Catholic	10-2	def. Gwynedd Mercy, 76-40; def. Widener, 73-64
#39	4	Messiah	9-2	01/02 vs. Penn State-Harrisburg
#40	3	UW-River Falls	11-2	def. (n) Finlandia, 61-49; won at UW-Superior, 63-47
#41	1	UW-Stout	10-3	won at Dominican, 82-44; LOST to (n) Ripon, 59-67; LOST to (n) Washington U., 47-51

[gordonmann]

Augie:

Yeah, I do try to take that into account, if I'm aware of the player's absence (which I was for Russell).

They played well against Scranton (which I have ranked No. 5) and I don't really hold the NYU loss against the Jumbos for the reason you mentioned. But they also lost to Emory with Russell.

Tufts' biggest problem right now is that their best wins are a 13-point win over Stevens and a three-point victory over WPI. We're now at a point in the year when a lot of teams have wins over Top 25 teams, so the absence of one hurts. The good news is that'll change -- Tufts will play Babson, Amherst and Bowdoin. Who knows -- maybe Trinity will even be a ranked opponent when they play.

[Augie2020]

Thanks Gordon !

[gordonmann]

It took longer than usual because I was traveling for work today, but the new Top 25 is out.

https://www.d3hoops.com/top25/women/2022-23/week5

Congrats to Trinity (Conn.) on its first ever appearance in the Top 25.

One step closer to the Trinity-versus-Trinity match-up in the NCAA Tournament that every broadcaster dreads...

[scottiedawg]

Biggest Vote Gainers
Loras: +161 (wins over Babson, Calvin, UWSP, Hanover)
UW-Eau Claire: +124 (wins over Trine, DePauw)
Chicago: +115 (wins over Whitewater, Knox)
Rochester: +97 (no results)
Hardin-Simmons: +94 (wins over UT Dallas, Geneseo St., Adrian)
Ohio Northern: +79 (wins over Denison, Bethany WestVirginia)
Trinity (Conn): +78 (wins over Springfield, Skidmore)
Smith: +65 (wins over Bridgewater MA, Dartmouth)
DeSales: +50 (wins over Cabrini, St. Joseph Conn, City Col New York)
UW-Whitewater: +44 (wins over UC Santa Cruz, Bethel Minn, Minn Morris)
Emory: +38
Scranton: +28
Bowdoin: +27
Gustavus Adolphus: +23
Baldwin-Wallace: +18
Trinity (Texas): +16
East Texas Baptist: +16
Hope: +14
Messiah: +11
Ithaca: +9
Christopher Newport: +8
UW-River Falls: +5
Washington & Jefferson: +3

Biggest Vote Decliners
Amherst: -258 (wins over Whitter, Montclair St., losses to Concordia Moorhead, Chapman)
Springfield: -142 (win over Wilkes, loss to Trinity Conn)
UC Santa Cruz: -136 (wins over Cal Lutheran, Concordia Tex, Minn Morris, losses to Whitewater, MHB)
Mary Hardin-Baylor: -133 (wins over UC Santa Cruz, Piedmont, losses to Trinity Tex, Puget Sound)
Babson: -116 (wins over Middlebury, Hanover, Endicott, loss to Loras)
Tufts: -87 (wins over Stevens and NJ City, loss to Scranton)
Calvin: -78 (win over Wheaton, loss to Loras)
Trine: -71 (wins over Wartburg, North Park, Marian, loss to Eau Claire)
Puget Sound: -35 (win over MHB, loss to Trinity Tex)
Mary Washington: -21 (wins over Shenandoah, Swarthmore, loss to Johns Hopkins)
Stevens: -14
Marymount (VA): -9
Whitman: -7
Transylvania: -6
Catholic: -5
Cortland St.: -2
New York University: -1
UW-Oshkosh: -1
UW-Stout: -1


The team(s) receiving the least votes in this week's poll is 5 votes, which I think is the greatest minimum this year. There is more consensus among voters.

My model said Amherst and Springfield were the two teams receiving votes that had the worst stretch of results, and voila, the voters exactly agreed.

Loras, Scranton, Eau Claire, Trinity Tex, Whitewater, Trine had the best stretch of results.

Loras, EC, and Whitewater all jumped up. Scranton and Trinity didn't (as much), but they are already in the upper echelon of the poll, so it's hard to move up.

Trine is such a mixed bag. Really impressive wins. Not sure they should be dinged that much for a loss to EC.  Massey loves Wartburg (24th). Voters do not (no votes). NCAA criteria does not (my prediction currently #16 in Region 9). My "Current Season Results" model is kinda in between (39th). 

[Baldini]

The MIAC is a conference that doesn't seem to be getting much love from the voters. Massey has GAC at 4 and they are the only team from the conference to even receive votes and are not in the top 25. Massey has St. Benedict (25), Hamline (27), Augsburg (28), Bethel (34), Concordia-Moorhead (37). Concordia-Moorhead's showing in Vagas might shine the light the MIAC's way in the coming weeks. Should be a number of great games coming up in the next couple of months in the MIAC.   

[scottiedawg]

Very much agree. It's been interesting to see how much Massey loves the MIAC.

I've also put a lot of focus into the MIAC as Region 9 is super interesting. If the Regional Rankings are Loras, Gustavus, and 5 WIAC teams, then the Tournament Resumes for MIAC teams will be VERY weak. On the other hand, if the MIAC can get at least a 2nd, (with maaaaaaaybe a 3rd) into the Regional Rankings, it catapults the resumes of all teams up. (this is very specifically talking about NCAA Tournament Resumes).

Jumping aside from the NCAA criteria, there's quite a few MIAC teams with great wins. BUT, lots of those wins are Conference wins, which can kinda become circular.

Bethel's best wins are Concordia and Augsburg.
Benedict's best are Hamline and Augsburg.
Augsburg beat Concordia, but also River Falls, CMS.
Concordia has beat AMHERST, Gustavus.
Gustavus has beat St. Benedict, Stout, Augsburg, Simpson, Luther.

A week or two of conference play will sort this out as we learn more about Amherst, River Falls, Stout. And also see if the MIAC teams continue to beat each other up, or if 1-2 beyond Gustavus emerge.

[gordonmann]

We talked about this a little on one of our D3hoops Classic broadcasts and I theorized two reasons the MIAC doesn't get as much Top 25 love as they should:

1) They booted their best team. St. Thomas accounts for most of the MIAC's wins in the NCAA Tournament in the last decade. Since 2012, the other conference members have gone 2-8 in March and both wins came from Gustavus Adolphus in 2018. There's a lot of one-and-dones. Now, the MIAC draws some really tough opponents. Last year Gustavus opened at Simpson and nearly won. But if you're done after the first night in the tournament, you're not getting a lot of love from voters to end one season or start the next.

That leads to the second problem...

2) The MIAC teams spend most of their time playing each other. The voters don't get to see how good the conference is because MIAC teams only play three non-conference games. And some of those non-conference schedules look like this.

* Gustavus: UW-Stout (good win!), Simpson (5-7 this year), Luther (8-5 but they lost to Wartburg which is getting no votes as Scott mentioned). Can't fault the Gusties too much. If this was scheduled a year or two ago, this would've been a really good schedule.

* Hamline: Buena Vista (6-6), Martin Luther, Crown.

* St. Bens: Minnesota-Morris, Worcester State, DePauw (6-6). The last two games are at a Hawaii tournament and normally DePauw's a good matchup. But why use your one non-conference game that you control on Minnesota-Morris?

Bethel played a really good schedule (UW-Whitewater, UW-Oshkosh, UW-Eau Claire) but went 0-3. Everyone else in the conference owes Bethel a nice gift for elevating the strength-of-schedule.

If you only play three games and you use those games against teams in the lower half of the A-R-C or UMAC, then you're not getting much love.

I think the conference is trying to change of these things by opening up more non-conference slots.

I also think the MIAC is underrated. I was impressed by Concordia-Moorhead. Their guards can shoot. They can push tempo. I love their two young forwards who can score from all over the place. If the Cobbers are the fourth best team in the MIAC, that's a really good conference.

[Darryl Nester]

How They Fared (Complete)

Top 25

Rank	Pts	Team	W-L	Results
#1	619	New York University	11-0	won at Brandeis, 78-46
#2	584	Trinity (Texas)	15-0	won at University of Dallas, 78-67; won at Austin, 79-60
#3	564	Transylvania	14-0	won at Earlham, 86-31; won at Defiance, 70-40
#4	553	Christopher Newport	14-0	won at Washington and Lee, 93-91 OT
#5	526	Hope	13-1	won at Alma, 88-62; won at Olivet, 89-32
#6	506	Scranton	13-0	won at Catholic, 71-61
#7	481	Baldwin Wallace	13-0	won at Mount Union, 75-73 OT; won at Muskingum, 65-43
#8	421	Smith	12-1	won at MIT, 73-60; def. #18 Springfield, 64-50
#9	387	UW-Eau Claire	12-3	won at T#36 UW-Oshkosh, 62-53; LOST to #17 UW-Whitewater, 69-79
#10	385	Chicago	11-1	LOST at Washington U., 49-68
#11	384	DeSales	13-0	won at Lycoming, 72-30
#12	299	Rochester	11-1	def. Rochester Tech, 88-36; won at T#27 Emory, 75-66
#13	288	Trine	11-3	def. St. Mary's (Ind.), 88-52
#14	274	Babson	11-1	won at #23 Tufts, 78-76
#15	238	Amherst	10-3	won at Williams, 60-57; LOST at Middlebury, 45-47
#16	193	Hardin-Simmons	12-2	def. McMurry, 78-49
#17	174	UW-Whitewater	12-3	def. UW-Stevens Point, 55-52; won at #9 UW-Eau Claire, 79-69
#18	170	Springfield	10-4	LOST to #25 Bowdoin, 58-71; LOST at #8 Smith, 50-64
#19	161	Loras	11-3	LOST at Luther, 62-68; won at Central, 69-55
#20	123	Ohio Northern	12-1	won at Otterbein, 75-70 2OT; won at John Carroll, 68-59
#21	119	Puget Sound	11-2	won at George Fox, 72-43; won at Willamette, 81-75
#22	103	Trinity (Conn.)	13-1	def. Colby, 67-43; def. #25 Bowdoin, 49-43
#23	101	Tufts	10-4	def. Connecticut College, 55-38; LOST to #14 Babson, 76-78
#24	95	Mary Hardin-Baylor	11-3	won at University of the Ozarks, 76-56; won at Texas-Dallas, 53-49
#25	63	Bowdoin	10-3	won at #18 Springfield, 71-58; won at Wesleyan, 73-62; LOST at #22 Trinity (Conn.), 43-49

Others receiving votes

Rank	Pts	Team	W-L	Results
#26	61	Ithaca	9-2	won at RPI, 62-45; won at William Smith, 67-47
T#27	53	Emory	8-2	def. Asbury, 63-45; LOST to #12 Rochester, 66-75
T#27	53	UC Santa Cruz	10-4	LOST to (n) #30 East Texas Baptist, 51-75
#29	37	Gustavus Adolphus	9-2	LOST to Bethel, 66-70; def. Carleton, 75-40
#30	27	East Texas Baptist	11-3	def. (n) T#27 UC Santa Cruz, 75-51; won at Howard Payne, 92-56; LOST at Sul Ross State, 58-71
#31	20	Calvin	11-3	def. Albion, 69-57; def. Alma, 70-55
#32	15	Messiah	12-2	def. Hood, 55-51; won at Eastern, 61-42
#33	13	Cortland	11-2	def. Fredonia, 85-63; def. Buffalo State, 70-42
#34	12	Washington and Jefferson	13-1	won at Geneva, 76-55; def. Waynesburg, 79-41
#35	8	UW-River Falls	11-4	LOST to UW-Stout, 59-74; LOST to T#36 UW-Oshkosh, 53-64
T#36	5	Mary Washington	13-2	def. Johnson & Wales (NC), 57-45
T#36	5	UW-Oshkosh	10-4	LOST to #9 UW-Eau Claire, 53-62; won at #35 UW-River Falls, 64-53
T#36	5	Whitman	7-5	LOST to Pacific, 53-58; def. Lewis and Clark, 73-44

[gordonmann]

If anyone watched the end of the CNU/W&L game, that was maybe the craziest finish I've ever seen.

CNU's game recap does a good job describing what happened. Plus check out the play-by-play

[scottiedawg]

That is exactly what I observed.

[ronk]

If anyone watched the end of the CNU/W&L game, that was maybe the craziest finish I've ever seen.

CNU's game recap does a good job describing what happened. Plus check out the play-by-play

I don't see any difference in the timing of the 2 techs; they both should be in the same period, not separate periods.

[scottiedawg]

That was what I found fascinating. I have no idea what defines the "start" or "end" of a period. It's obviously not game clock defined. 

Both Techs occurred after 00:00 in OT and before tip in 2OT. But the FTs indicate there's something that defines the crossover between "end of OT" and "beginning of 2OT"

[CNU85]

I tuned in right when it looked like CNU won before the technicals. I saw them line up to shake hands. Then the craziness started. I missed the entire game until that point. 6 players fouled out. 2 technicals against CNU coach. I'm not sure what happened during the game but it seems to have been a physical and tough game.