Top 25 discussion

Started by Pat Coleman, February 02, 2005, 12:01:07 AM

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WUPHF

Quote from: deiscanton on December 18, 2022, 11:18:22 PM
Regarding NYU, the 2000-01 team made it to #1 in the WBCA poll (that season's polls are no longer archived by the WBCA) when Dari Magyar made her "Miracle in Manhattan" buzzer beating 3 point shot at the then Coles Sports Center to defeat #1 Wash U, 65-64 , handing Wash U their first UAA loss and second loss overall since the end of the 1997-98 season.  A few weeks earlier, Fontbonne had ended Wash U's 81 game winning streak.  NYU was ranked at #4 in the D3Hoops.com poll entering the rematch at Coles Center-- Wash U had beaten NYU 72-37 in St. Louis eariler that season. 

Interestingly, NYU lost the prior match-up to Washington University in St. Louis that season by a score of 72-37.  That is how good that Bears were that season.

NYU was surely the No. 1 team in 1997 when they won the national championship.

Just as with Meg Barber, the coach of that championship team, Janice Quinn, was a star player for the Violets.

Darryl Nester

How They Fared (Complete)

New poll comes out tomorrow; this report includes results through today (except for two late games).

Top 25

Rank   Pts   TeamW-L   Results
#1620New York University10-0def. Stockton, 85-27; def. #26 Bowdoin, 78-75
#2570Transylvania12-0won at Manchester, 76-44; def. Wisconsin Lutheran, 53-45; def. Berea, 82-55
#3568Trinity (Texas)13-0def. #16 Mary Hardin-Baylor, 74-63; def. #20 Puget Sound, 78-69; def. Schreiner, 74-60;
def. Colorado College, 74-63
#4545Christopher Newport13-0def. (n) T#29 Cortland, 89-49; def. Rowan, 93-60; won at Meredith, 94-52
#5512Hope11-1def. (n) Carnegie Mellon, 85-66; def. (n) Otterbein, 89-71
#6496Amherst9-2def. (n) Montclair State, 61-51; LOST to (n) Concordia-Moorhead, 68-79 2OT; def. (n) Whittier, 53-42;
LOST at Chapman, 64-69
#7478Scranton12-0def. (n) Wartburg, 59-37; def. (n) Rhodes, 76-51; def. (n) George Fox, 80-47; def. (n) #19 Tufts, 68-59
#8463Baldwin Wallace11-0def. Manchester, 74-36; def. Hamilton, 72-65
#9390Babson10-1LOST to (n) Loras, 52-73; def. (n) Hanover, 66-65; def. Middlebury, 60-51; def. Endicott, 76-51
#10359Trine10-3def. (n) North Park, 65-51; def. (n) Wartburg, 60-56; LOST to (n) #15 UW-Eau Claire, 68-75;
def. (n) Marian, 73-38
#11356Smith10-1def. Bridgewater State, 88-67; def. Mass-Dartmouth, 78-58
#12334DeSales12-0won at Cabrini, 68-50; def. (n) St. Joseph (Conn.), 70-53; def. (n) CCNY, 82-18
#13312Springfield10-2LOST to #28 Trinity (Conn.), 45-58; def. Wilkes, 60-30
#14270Chicago11-0def. Knox, 72-42
#15263UW-Eau Claire11-2def. (n) #10 Trine, 75-68; won at DePauw, 65-51
#16228Mary Hardin-Baylor9-3LOST at #3 Trinity (Texas), 63-74; LOST to (n) #20 Puget Sound, 58-59; def. Piedmont, 83-45;
def. #18 UC Santa Cruz, 60-49
#17202Rochester9-1IDLE
#18189UC Santa Cruz10-3LOST to #21 UW-Whitewater, 60-61; def. Minnesota-Morris, 71-51; 01/01 at Concordia (Texas) canceled;
LOST at #16 Mary Hardin-Baylor, 49-60
#19188Tufts9-3won at T#31 Stevens, 62-49; LOST to (n) #7 Scranton, 59-68; won at New Jersey City, 79-52
#20154Puget Sound9-2def. (n) #16 Mary Hardin-Baylor, 59-58; LOST at #3 Trinity (Texas), 69-78
#21130UW-Whitewater10-3won at #18 UC Santa Cruz, 61-60; def. (n) Minnesota-Morris, 82-45; def. Bethel, 67-50
#2299Hardin-Simmons11-2def. Texas-Dallas, 83-60; def. (n) SUNY Geneseo, 60-52; def. (n) Adrian, 79-55
#2398Calvin9-3def. Cornerstone, 71-55; LOST at Loras, 54-73; def. Wheaton, 72-68
#2452Ithaca7-2def. Hamilton, 57-44
#2544Ohio Northern10-1def. (n) Denison, 60-50; def. (n) Bethany, 76-55


Others receiving votes
Rank   Pts   TeamW-L   Results
#2636Bowdoin8-2def. (n) St. Joseph's (L.I.), 93-55; LOST at #1 New York University, 75-78
#2726Mary Washington11-2LOST at Johns Hopkins, 52-56; def. Shenandoah, 65-57; 01/02 vs. Swarthmore
#2825Trinity (Conn.)11-1won at #13 Springfield, 58-45; def. (n) Skidmore, 59-57
T#2915Cortland9-2LOST to (n) #4 Christopher Newport, 49-89; def. (n) Dickinson, 63-54
T#2915Emory7-1IDLE
T#3114Gustavus Adolphus8-1won at Luther, 84-50
T#3114Stevens10-2LOST to #19 Tufts, 49-62; def. George Fox, 73-46
#3312Whitman6-412/28 vs. Cal Lutheran canceled
#3411East Texas Baptist9-2def. (n) Piedmont, 76-62
T#359Marymount10-2LOST at Washington and Lee, 68-78
T#359Washington and Jefferson11-1won at Carnegie Mellon, 56-48; def. York (Pa.), 55-29
#376UW-Oshkosh9-3LOST to (n) Randolph-Macon, 49-55; def. (n) Roanoke, 70-49; def. Washington U., 78-42; def. Ripon, 61-53
#385Catholic10-2def. Gwynedd Mercy, 76-40; def. Widener, 73-64
#394Messiah9-201/02 vs. Penn State-Harrisburg
#403UW-River Falls11-2def. (n) Finlandia, 61-49; won at UW-Superior, 63-47
#411UW-Stout10-3won at Dominican, 82-44; LOST to (n) Ripon, 59-67; LOST to (n) Washington U., 47-51

gordonmann

Augie:

Yeah, I do try to take that into account, if I'm aware of the player's absence (which I was for Russell).

They played well against Scranton (which I have ranked No. 5) and I don't really hold the NYU loss against the Jumbos for the reason you mentioned. But they also lost to Emory with Russell.

Tufts' biggest problem right now is that their best wins are a 13-point win over Stevens and a three-point victory over WPI. We're now at a point in the year when a lot of teams have wins over Top 25 teams, so the absence of one hurts. The good news is that'll change -- Tufts will play Babson, Amherst and Bowdoin. Who knows -- maybe Trinity will even be a ranked opponent when they play.

Augie2020


gordonmann

It took longer than usual because I was traveling for work today, but the new Top 25 is out.

https://www.d3hoops.com/top25/women/2022-23/week5

Congrats to Trinity (Conn.) on its first ever appearance in the Top 25.

One step closer to the Trinity-versus-Trinity match-up in the NCAA Tournament that every broadcaster dreads...


scottiedawg

Biggest Vote Gainers
Loras: +161 (wins over Babson, Calvin, UWSP, Hanover)
UW-Eau Claire: +124 (wins over Trine, DePauw)
Chicago: +115 (wins over Whitewater, Knox)
Rochester: +97 (no results)
Hardin-Simmons: +94 (wins over UT Dallas, Geneseo St., Adrian)
Ohio Northern: +79 (wins over Denison, Bethany WestVirginia)
Trinity (Conn): +78 (wins over Springfield, Skidmore)
Smith: +65 (wins over Bridgewater MA, Dartmouth)
DeSales: +50 (wins over Cabrini, St. Joseph Conn, City Col New York)
UW-Whitewater: +44 (wins over UC Santa Cruz, Bethel Minn, Minn Morris)
Emory: +38
Scranton: +28
Bowdoin: +27
Gustavus Adolphus: +23
Baldwin-Wallace: +18
Trinity (Texas): +16
East Texas Baptist: +16
Hope: +14
Messiah: +11
Ithaca: +9
Christopher Newport: +8
UW-River Falls: +5
Washington & Jefferson: +3

Biggest Vote Decliners
Amherst: -258 (wins over Whitter, Montclair St., losses to Concordia Moorhead, Chapman)
Springfield: -142 (win over Wilkes, loss to Trinity Conn)
UC Santa Cruz: -136 (wins over Cal Lutheran, Concordia Tex, Minn Morris, losses to Whitewater, MHB)
Mary Hardin-Baylor: -133 (wins over UC Santa Cruz, Piedmont, losses to Trinity Tex, Puget Sound)
Babson: -116 (wins over Middlebury, Hanover, Endicott, loss to Loras)
Tufts: -87 (wins over Stevens and NJ City, loss to Scranton)
Calvin: -78 (win over Wheaton, loss to Loras)
Trine: -71 (wins over Wartburg, North Park, Marian, loss to Eau Claire)
Puget Sound: -35 (win over MHB, loss to Trinity Tex)
Mary Washington: -21 (wins over Shenandoah, Swarthmore, loss to Johns Hopkins)
Stevens: -14
Marymount (VA): -9
Whitman: -7
Transylvania: -6
Catholic: -5
Cortland St.: -2
New York University: -1
UW-Oshkosh: -1
UW-Stout: -1


The team(s) receiving the least votes in this week's poll is 5 votes, which I think is the greatest minimum this year. There is more consensus among voters.

My model said Amherst and Springfield were the two teams receiving votes that had the worst stretch of results, and voila, the voters exactly agreed.

Loras, Scranton, Eau Claire, Trinity Tex, Whitewater, Trine had the best stretch of results.

Loras, EC, and Whitewater all jumped up. Scranton and Trinity didn't (as much), but they are already in the upper echelon of the poll, so it's hard to move up.

Trine is such a mixed bag. Really impressive wins. Not sure they should be dinged that much for a loss to EC.  Massey loves Wartburg (24th). Voters do not (no votes). NCAA criteria does not (my prediction currently #16 in Region 9). My "Current Season Results" model is kinda in between (39th). 

Baldini

The MIAC is a conference that doesn't seem to be getting much love from the voters. Massey has GAC at 4 and they are the only team from the conference to even receive votes and are not in the top 25. Massey has St. Benedict (25), Hamline (27), Augsburg (28), Bethel (34), Concordia-Moorhead (37). Concordia-Moorhead's showing in Vagas might shine the light the MIAC's way in the coming weeks. Should be a number of great games coming up in the next couple of months in the MIAC.   

scottiedawg

Very much agree. It's been interesting to see how much Massey loves the MIAC.

I've also put a lot of focus into the MIAC as Region 9 is super interesting. If the Regional Rankings are Loras, Gustavus, and 5 WIAC teams, then the Tournament Resumes for MIAC teams will be VERY weak. On the other hand, if the MIAC can get at least a 2nd, (with maaaaaaaybe a 3rd) into the Regional Rankings, it catapults the resumes of all teams up. (this is very specifically talking about NCAA Tournament Resumes).

Jumping aside from the NCAA criteria, there's quite a few MIAC teams with great wins. BUT, lots of those wins are Conference wins, which can kinda become circular.

Bethel's best wins are Concordia and Augsburg.
Benedict's best are Hamline and Augsburg.
Augsburg beat Concordia, but also River Falls, CMS.
Concordia has beat AMHERST, Gustavus.
Gustavus has beat St. Benedict, Stout, Augsburg, Simpson, Luther.

A week or two of conference play will sort this out as we learn more about Amherst, River Falls, Stout. And also see if the MIAC teams continue to beat each other up, or if 1-2 beyond Gustavus emerge.

gordonmann

#2858
We talked about this a little on one of our D3hoops Classic broadcasts and I theorized two reasons the MIAC doesn't get as much Top 25 love as they should:

1) They booted their best team. St. Thomas accounts for most of the MIAC's wins in the NCAA Tournament in the last decade. Since 2012, the other conference members have gone 2-8 in March and both wins came from Gustavus Adolphus in 2018. There's a lot of one-and-dones. Now, the MIAC draws some really tough opponents. Last year Gustavus opened at Simpson and nearly won. But if you're done after the first night in the tournament, you're not getting a lot of love from voters to end one season or start the next.

That leads to the second problem...

2) The MIAC teams spend most of their time playing each other. The voters don't get to see how good the conference is because MIAC teams only play three non-conference games. And some of those non-conference schedules look like this.

* Gustavus: UW-Stout (good win!), Simpson (5-7 this year), Luther (8-5 but they lost to Wartburg which is getting no votes as Scott mentioned). Can't fault the Gusties too much. If this was scheduled a year or two ago, this would've been a really good schedule.

* Hamline: Buena Vista (6-6), Martin Luther, Crown.

* St. Bens: Minnesota-Morris, Worcester State, DePauw (6-6). The last two games are at a Hawaii tournament and normally DePauw's a good matchup. But why use your one non-conference game that you control on Minnesota-Morris?

Bethel played a really good schedule (UW-Whitewater, UW-Oshkosh, UW-Eau Claire) but went 0-3. Everyone else in the conference owes Bethel a nice gift for elevating the strength-of-schedule.

If you only play three games and you use those games against teams in the lower half of the A-R-C or UMAC, then you're not getting much love.

I think the conference is trying to change of these things by opening up more non-conference slots.

I also think the MIAC is underrated. I was impressed by Concordia-Moorhead. Their guards can shoot. They can push tempo. I love their two young forwards who can score from all over the place. If the Cobbers are the fourth best team in the MIAC, that's a really good conference.

Darryl Nester

How They Fared (Complete)

Top 25

Rank   Pts   TeamW-L   Results
#1619New York University11-0won at Brandeis, 78-46
#2584Trinity (Texas)15-0won at University of Dallas, 78-67; won at Austin, 79-60
#3564Transylvania14-0won at Earlham, 86-31; won at Defiance, 70-40
#4553Christopher Newport14-0won at Washington and Lee, 93-91 OT
#5526Hope13-1won at Alma, 88-62; won at Olivet, 89-32
#6506Scranton13-0won at Catholic, 71-61
#7481Baldwin Wallace13-0won at Mount Union, 75-73 OT; won at Muskingum, 65-43
#8421Smith12-1won at MIT, 73-60; def. #18 Springfield, 64-50
#9387UW-Eau Claire12-3won at T#36 UW-Oshkosh, 62-53; LOST to #17 UW-Whitewater, 69-79
#10385Chicago11-1LOST at Washington U., 49-68
#11384DeSales13-0won at Lycoming, 72-30
#12299Rochester11-1def. Rochester Tech, 88-36; won at T#27 Emory, 75-66
#13288Trine11-3def. St. Mary's (Ind.), 88-52
#14274Babson11-1won at #23 Tufts, 78-76
#15238Amherst10-3won at Williams, 60-57; LOST at Middlebury, 45-47
#16193Hardin-Simmons12-2def. McMurry, 78-49
#17174UW-Whitewater12-3def. UW-Stevens Point, 55-52; won at #9 UW-Eau Claire, 79-69
#18170Springfield10-4LOST to #25 Bowdoin, 58-71; LOST at #8 Smith, 50-64
#19161Loras11-3LOST at Luther, 62-68; won at Central, 69-55
#20123Ohio Northern12-1won at Otterbein, 75-70 2OT; won at John Carroll, 68-59
#21119Puget Sound11-2won at George Fox, 72-43; won at Willamette, 81-75
#22103Trinity (Conn.)13-1def. Colby, 67-43; def. #25 Bowdoin, 49-43
#23101Tufts10-4def. Connecticut College, 55-38; LOST to #14 Babson, 76-78
#2495Mary Hardin-Baylor11-3won at University of the Ozarks, 76-56; won at Texas-Dallas, 53-49
#2563Bowdoin10-3won at #18 Springfield, 71-58; won at Wesleyan, 73-62; LOST at #22 Trinity (Conn.), 43-49


Others receiving votes
Rank   Pts   TeamW-L   Results
#2661Ithaca9-2won at RPI, 62-45; won at William Smith, 67-47
T#2753Emory8-2def. Asbury, 63-45; LOST to #12 Rochester, 66-75
T#2753UC Santa Cruz10-4LOST to (n) #30 East Texas Baptist, 51-75
#2937Gustavus Adolphus9-2LOST to Bethel, 66-70; def. Carleton, 75-40
#3027East Texas Baptist11-3def. (n) T#27 UC Santa Cruz, 75-51; won at Howard Payne, 92-56; LOST at Sul Ross State, 58-71
#3120Calvin11-3def. Albion, 69-57; def. Alma, 70-55
#3215Messiah12-2def. Hood, 55-51; won at Eastern, 61-42
#3313Cortland11-2def. Fredonia, 85-63; def. Buffalo State, 70-42
#3412Washington and Jefferson13-1won at Geneva, 76-55; def. Waynesburg, 79-41
#358UW-River Falls11-4LOST to UW-Stout, 59-74; LOST to T#36 UW-Oshkosh, 53-64
T#365Mary Washington13-2def. Johnson & Wales (NC), 57-45
T#365UW-Oshkosh10-4LOST to #9 UW-Eau Claire, 53-62; won at #35 UW-River Falls, 64-53
T#365Whitman7-5LOST to Pacific, 53-58; def. Lewis and Clark, 73-44

gordonmann

#2860
If anyone watched the end of the CNU/W&L game, that was maybe the craziest finish I've ever seen.

CNU's game recap does a good job describing what happened. Plus check out the play-by-play

scottiedawg

That is exactly what I observed.

ronk

Quote from: gordonmann on January 08, 2023, 06:55:27 PM
If anyone watched the end of the CNU/W&L game, that was maybe the craziest finish I've ever seen.

CNU's game recap does a good job describing what happened. Plus check out the play-by-play

I don't see any difference in the timing of the 2 techs; they both should be in the same period, not separate periods.

scottiedawg

That was what I found fascinating. I have no idea what defines the "start" or "end" of a period. It's obviously not game clock defined. 

Both Techs occurred after 00:00 in OT and before tip in 2OT. But the FTs indicate there's something that defines the crossover between "end of OT" and "beginning of 2OT"

CNU85

I tuned in right when it looked like CNU won before the technicals. I saw them line up to shake hands. Then the craziness started. I missed the entire game until that point. 6 players fouled out. 2 technicals against CNU coach. I'm not sure what happened during the game but it seems to have been a physical and tough game.