FB: North Coast Athletic Conference

[wally_wabash]

The lopsided games are a matter of perspective.   

As for 2002, I don't know how you could watch that game and not be impressed by just how dialed in Knott and Short were.  That team, during that stretch of games between the Wittenberg epic in October and the Mount Union loss is probably about as well as I've seen any Wabash team play for an extended period of time.  Those guys were locked in and crushing everybody.  It was a lot of fun to watch. 

[DPU3619]

Wasn't hard to crush them that day.  I always heard this rumor that DePauw had tried to install a whole new scheme that week to try to stop Short and that most everybody had NO IDEA what their responsibilities were.  I especially get that vibe when you go grab that Monon memory off the DPU website.  With the exception of the fade in the corner, which was an exceptional throw by Jake Knott, HE'S WIDE FREAKING OPEN EVERYTIME!

[Ryan Tipps]

The lopsided games are a matter of perspective.   

Maybe so, but I'm actually with Wes on this one. I travel 700 miles to this game every year, and I want it to be a close one. Of course I want Wabash to win, but I'd rather it be a win by a field goal than be a 30-point blowout.

But that's just me. Over the years, maybe it's because I've seen so many other teams play and am not as heavily focused on Wabash as I was as an undergrad, but my "hatred" of DePauw 10 years ago has turned solidly into respect these days. I'm sure I'm in the minority on that regard, but I guess I take more satisfaction in a win over a team I respect rather than a win over a squad I despise. 

[formerd3db]

Lots to reply to:

Raider 68 ... restrored your karma.  So, now if and when Wabash plays your team ... no snide or crummyt remarks.  Keep those for Woo.

Ryan Tipps ... the 82 season was fraught with politics in the picks.  Wabash had the national ranking (also much more subjective) but the North quadrant was the stroingest one and the "pickers" (we called them by other names) were not about to pick the best teams over politically correct geography picks.  This was one of the events which finally lead to a tournament of more than 8 teams and less politics (although it still exists) in the pciking of contestants.

Former 3db ... I was at the 79 game in the trhgen "new" Holland stasdium.  (I remember the old one with the wood covered home stands.)  The score ended 20-18.  Not taking anything away from the Dutchman ... they had a fine team.  However Wabash helped a little in the first two O series when the Wabash long snapper put the ball overe the puynters head twice ... once for 7 for Hope and once for 3 for Hope.  Down 10 - 0 after about 3 minutes by shooting onesself in the stomach along with the weather was too much to overcome. Again, not making excuses ... Hope won.  Now during that era, Hope had some good teams.  They (along with Albion) would host Wabash and DePauw as two non-conference beginning contests.  They oftern did not survive both those contests.

Now Q for you.  The EGR HS coach Stuursma played for Hope.  His last year, he suffered a broken leg against Wabash.  Do you have any recollection of the event/circumstances?   

Wabco:

First, to you and all your Wabash colleagues, please allow me this clarification.  I have been informed (reminded ) by a good colleague that Billy "White Shoes" Johnson actually played for Widener just a few years prior to that 1977 Stagg Bowl Game.  While my other facts I mentioned in that post are correct, I should have checked on that regarding Johnson rather than relying on my memory - i.e. not an excuse, but I was short for time towards the end of that post.  What I probably recall, is the announcers making multiple mention about the NFL's Johnson being from Widener .

Anyway, thanks for sharing your own memories about that game and, yes, our old stadium Riverview Park.  I played in that 20-18 game and have some great memories from it.  I do recall, as our free safety, that I and my fellow DB's were "sucking wind" and praying each time we jogged back to the huddle that your Wabash guys weren't going to throw another pass.  While they had a great RB that year (his name escapes me - it shouldn't as some of your colleagues have told me it before), your QB was great along with the receivers.  It seemed Wabash was throwing long 2-3 plays in some series at times!  Riverview Park was a great stadium in that, as you probably recall, the crown was right up on you, it had the neat covered home stands and was a "U" shaped stadium with the bleachers around the other areas.  The problem was the playing turf being destroyed, which was the reason why the new (current) stadium was built by the city for the h.s. and college, yet we still have the same field problems today after all these years (that is another long story, so I won't bore you all with it here!).  But, yes, a great game it was as was the rivalries with DePauw and Wabash we had.  Indeed, Albion and Hope had the edge during those years (after Alma and Adrian in the early '70's), then Adrian and Hope in the '80's, before Albion's longtime run in the '90's.

As far as Stuursma, it is ironic you ask.  Obivously, he was after my playing days there, however, just this past Homecoming last month, they talked about his injury that year and he had a video presentation at our then head coach Ray Smith's retirement recognition dinner (Stuursma couldn't make it since he was obviously coaching EGR in the game that Fri night).  Anyway, they related how after Stuursma, one of Hope's captains that year, broke his leg, he was kind of (and understandably) feeling sorry for himself and some of his players and coaches came and gave him a pep talk.  He then was at every practice in a wheelchair then crutches for the remainder of the season supporting his teammates, coaches, etc., the mark of a great captain.  While I do not personall know him, again, his being after my time, he is for sure one of the great examples of Hope's student-athletes and, of course, a successful current high school football coach.

Anyway, sorry for this long post.  Just wanted you guys to know I always enjoyed playing against Wabash and our visits to your Hollett Stadium.  Besides, Jesse Harper, of our MIAA and who helped Alma College back in 1906-1907 took your LG's to prominence before he went on to ND as you all know!  

[formerd3db]

old wabash:

The so-called "Dayton Rule" came about due to the recruting practices that school apparently had after they dropped from DI to DIII.  There were some instances where they apparently had offered track scholarships to student-athletes, who were also DI calibur football players, which obviously helped them in having some powerful teams in those early DIII years for them (some claim why they won the Stagg Bowl and were in the national championship hunt in the others).  As a result, the NCAA ruled that a college and/or university could not compete in at the DIII level and have all their other sports in DI, so they would not have an advantage over other schools in football that way.  This basically led, in part, to the eventual DIAA classifications (although DIAA football had been established before these years in question) that Dayton went to i.e. the eventual Pioneer League establishment of non-scholarship DIAA football.   Of course, here are the exceptions i.e. the "grandfather rules" for lacrosse and hockey such as for John's Hopkins, and Colorado College (until the latter dropped football this year).

[Mr. Ypsi]

old wabash:

The so-called "Dayton Rule" came about due to the recruting practices that school apparently had after they dropped from DI to DIII.  There were some instances where they apparently had offered track scholarships to student-athletes, who were also DI calibur football players, which obviously helped them in having some powerful teams in those early DIII years for them (some claim why they won the Stagg Bowl and were in the national championship hunt in the others).  As a result, the NCAA ruled that a college and/or university could not compete in at the DIII level and have all their other sports in DI, so they would not have an advantage over other schools in football that way.  This basically led, in part, to the eventual DIAA classifications, and in the situation for Dayton, the eventual Pioneer League establishment of non-scholarship DIAA football.   Of course, here are the exceptions i.e. the "grandfather rules" for lacrosse and hockey such as for John's Hopkins, and Colorado College (until the latter dropped football this year).

I think you've got the 'Dayton Rule' essentially correct, but my recollection is that it was specifically that, even for 'grand-fathered' schools, scholarship athletes in one sport could not compete in a d3 sport.  My recollection is that Dayton would sometimes give baseball or track scholarships, (perhaps deserved in that sport, to guys they were really recruiting for football.  If memory is correct, football and men's basketball are the two sports singled out that CANNOT be d1 if the rest of the sports are not.

Thus a Johns Hopkins lacrosse player or a (name that d3/d1 school) hockey player could NOT also play football or basketball.

[formerd3db]

Thanks for the further clarification, Mr. Ypsi.  Also, while most of us refer to this as "The Dayton Rule", I don't believe it is actually called that in the official NCAA Rules and Regulations.  Without the manual at my immediate availability, I don't recall the specific designated code/section #'s for the rule - not that it matter's per se, however.

[formerd3db]

For you NCAC guys:

Not to prolong a much discussed previous topic, however, what is the latest, if anything, on which school, if any, might be the top candidate to replace Earlham when the latter leaves for the HCAC?   

[ADL70]

Has there ever been an undefeated team excluded from the D-III playoffs?

Yes, littlegiant. The Little Giants were. 

However, I was only 5 years old at the time, so the exact reasons are a little fuzzy.

Has there ever been an undefeated team excluded from the D-III playoffs?

Yes, littlegiant. The Little Giants were. 

However, I was only 5 years old at the time, so the exact reasons are a little fuzzy.

Actually twice, if going 8-0-1 (a tie in "an uninteresting" Bell Game in 1980) is considered undefeated and then again in 1982.  If fading memory and advancing age don't trip me up, I believe Dayton won in 1980 and West Georgia in 1982. 
Recommended reading -  pages 68-69 of 2009 Wabash Media Guide... 

I only wish I'd have been five back then, Ryan 

Ryan and Cave2:

You remember correctly, Cave2.  This topic has been discussed a couple of times on this board 2-3 years ago or so, but is always fun to revisit, especially around playoff time each year.  Back then, the NCAA Div. III playoffs had only eight spots, 1 for each region (N, S, E, W) and four at-large bids.  However, their rule at the time was no more than two teams from the same region.  Thus, Wabash lost out on bids because Dayton and Baldwin-Wallace were ahead of them in the rankings in 1980 (those two teams finished #3 and #4 in the final poll with Wabash being #9).  That was in the era when Dayton was still "killing people" after having dropped from DI to DIII in 1977, which eventually led to, of course, the so-called "Dayton Rule" for DIII football as has also been discussed on the boards most interestingly in recent years.

However, the most disappointing one (certainly for our Wabash friends here ), was indeed, in 1982 when Wabash was 10-0 as you've mentioned and didn't get a bid because Baldwin-Wallace and Augustana were ahead of them in the North region rankings at the end of the season (as I recall, those two teams were #1 and #2 with Wabash being #3 in the North region; thereafter, in the final overall national rankings, Baldwin-Wallace was #1, West Georgia #2, Augustana #3 and Wabash #5, with West Georgia winning the national championship in the Stagg Bowl that year - in the next year or so, West George went DII).

That happened also to Hope (1984 when they were 9-0-0, Hope's best season ever in its 100 year history of football) and Adrian as well in the early 1980's, being ranked in the top ten in the national DIII poll (Hope was #8 as I recall) when there were still only 8 spots in the playoffs and the same "region limit" rule in effect.  Thankfully, this has changed as we all know, and even though there are a few disputes on occasion (like the Franklin one a year ago), these are minimal and the process pretty much as fair as it can be for the most part (even though the committee may have some reasoning and choices different from what some of us would choose - see Keith's summary in this week's ATN on the front page here of the criteria used for this which is most informative). 

Although they have done it before, perhaps some of our Wabash regulars here might care to share their thoughts on those two years.  IMO, it is still a travesty that Wabash's 10-0 team (and, of course, Hope's 9-0 team) didn't make it those years - a real shame.  I would also just like to add a memory here since we're on the topic of the playoffs and championships.  Speaking of Wabash and Hope, way back in my own playing days, my senior year in 1977 (yes, I'm old! ), we were the only team to beat Wabash (until they lost in the Stagg Bowl National Championship game to Widner (and Billy "White Shoes" Johnson if I recall correctly? - Wabash had some "big guns" that year, too).  We beat them in a very close 20-18, a most memorable and very great game at our place in a blinding rainstorm for a much of the game.  The game was actually delayed at the start by 45 minutes right after our pre-game warm-ups and the National Anthem, due to big lightening storm.

former3db-  Very nice job of summing up the this topic...

An addendum, if I may:

It also happened to 9-0 CWRU in 1984, winners of the initial NCAC football championship.

[Duster72]

Exciting Monon Bell tailgating directive courtesy of the hosts:
http://www.depauw.edu/ath/football/monon/2009%20Monon%20Bell%20Fan%20Information.pdf


Much more thorough than the Gentleman's Rule.

Also, we now have get privilege of paying $5 to park at Blackstock.  I am just about ready to start going to a telecast party here in Indianapolis rather than go to DePauw, but I just couldn't miss the game.

[formerd3db]

ADL70:
I forgot about that one.  Thanks for the reminder for us.  Indeed, it still "stings" after all these years for those whose teams experienced that type of situation.  Not the worst thing in life, but darn close in a way...

[wab64]

      Depauw's ultimatum about Monon Bell behavior is unreal. Shows you how the Gentleman's Rule is such a breath of fresh air. Amidst all the do nots, a couple of items caught my eye:  no kegs, no glass containers-where are you going to get beer in a plastic container and who would drink it if available. The use of charcoal or gas grills are strictly forbidden for anything other than the preparation of food-for God's sake what else would they be used for??? Maybe they are thinking we would be heating up irons to torture DePauw people. Ridiculous!

[MUCheats]

old wabash:

The so-called "Dayton Rule" came about due to the recruting practices that school apparently had after they dropped from DI to DIII.  There were some instances where they apparently had offered track scholarships to student-athletes, who were also DI calibur football players, which obviously helped them in having some powerful teams in those early DIII years for them (some claim why they won the Stagg Bowl and were in the national championship hunt in the others).  As a result, the NCAA ruled that a college and/or university could not compete in at the DIII level and have all their other sports in DI, so they would not have an advantage over other schools in football that way.  This basically led, in part, to the eventual DIAA classifications (although DIAA football had been established before these years in question) that Dayton went to i.e. the eventual Pioneer League establishment of non-scholarship DIAA football.   Of course, here are the exceptions i.e. the "grandfather rules" for lacrosse and hockey such as for John's Hopkins, and Colorado College (until the latter dropped football this year).

Dayton never really dropped down to Division III.  Dayton was always a DI school, with DIII football.  Same with Georgetown and a few other schools.  This is the opposite of what Johns Hopkins and Colorado College did/are doing.  They are DIII schools with a DI program.  The grandfather ruling which affected JHU and CC came a decade and a half after the original ruling which booted Dayton, Georgetown, and about two dozen other schools from DIII football.

In defense of my alma mater, UD was never reprimanded by the NCAA for any wrong-doing nor were the trophies ever taken away.  And I'm fairly certain that the move to kick Dayton out of DIII football was done by other DIII schools, not the NCAA brass.  One more thought, for as unfair of an advantage that UD supposedly had, they never dominated DIII the way that Mount Union has in the past 15-20 years. 

[oldtiger]

Dayton also did not build a DIII program as MUC has.

The football program most certainly did drop to DIII. In '76 UD was DI and in '77 they were DIII and pissed as hell they were not eligible for the DIII playoffs w/ multiple classes on scholarship. In '78 they were eligible, selected and eliminated in the first round by Carnegie Mellon.

[Pat Coleman]

But the school did not, and that's how the original post could have been read.