FB: North Coast Athletic Conference

[bashbrother]

He is speaking right now.

"His reason for SJF"

Who wasn't the strongest team?,  SOS?, and their two losses were to quality opponents"  He then said that all of that outweighed the review of the other one-loss team on the board.

Sounds like SOS and strength of who SJF lost to .....won out in this situation.   But the same was not used for Wheaton.

[wally_wabash]

He is speaking right now.

She, I believe.   

[bashbrother]

oops.... I guess I need to check my ears.  Have the Jets /Patriots going as well....

[Schwami]

She didn't really answer why the regional committee moved SJF ahead of Endicott (or IWU ahead of Case for that matter), but she made it clear that these were decisions by the respective regional committees not subject to change by the national committee.

[wally_wabash]

He is speaking right now.

"His reason for SJF"

Who wasn't the strongest team?,  SOS?, and their two losses were to quality opponents"  He then said that all of that outweighed the review of the other one-loss team on the board.

Sounds like SOS and strength of who SJF lost to .....won out in this situation.   But the same was not used for Wheaton.

Perhaps not.  It may be that Wheaton was lingering around on the board after IWU was taken and ultimately not selected.  Would/will be fun to learn who the last four out were. 

[LGHistorian]

Wabco,

     The game you are thinking of was 1979.  Stan Parrish was the head coach.  The final score was Hope 20, Wabash 2.  The 1977 game was Hope 20, Wabash 18.  Coach Navarro was the head coach.  The Coach Bowman I mentioned was the longtime OC for Coach Navarro, Ken "The Bear" Bowman, not the former head coach, Dick Bowman.  Sorry, since you said you saw these games I thought you knew who I was talking about.  I was on the sidelines for the 1977 game and was assisting the coaches in the press box in 1979...so, I am quite clear on which game was which.

[smedindy]

So, Wally, that puts your statement crosswise that the national committee tweaks the regional rankings.

Makes it even more curious how they can run a national tourney with four regional fiefdoms.

[wally_wabash]

So, Wally, that puts your statement crosswise that the national committee tweaks the regional rankings.

Makes it even more curious how they can run a national tourney with four regional fiefdoms.

No, no.  What I'm saying is that the national committee ranks those regions by themselves...so they wind up four lists that they created themselves.  I hesitate to say that the regional committee ranks those regions independently, because clearly they rely on the regional advisory committees for info.  But at the end of week 11, the lists they work off of are their own and those lists come from the same group of people. 

[smedindy]

Still it doesn't make sense, though on how one region is treated different than the other.

Plus the statement: "She didn't really answer why the regional committee moved SJF ahead of Endicott (or IWU ahead of Case for that matter), but she made it clear that these were decisions by the respective regional committees not subject to change by the national committee." doesn't make sense with what you just said.

It's OK Wally, you don't have to be correct every single time! 

[ADL70]

smeds...was the committee clear enough about the importance (or lack thereof) of regional records today?  Albion gets seeded #32 and gets fed to the Warhawks, CWRU can't get off the table getting passed over by, quite possibly five other Pool C teams including 2-loss SJF.  We've debated this all week, but it should be clear...all of the results matter, regional or not.

Then why IC? And why a two-loss team? It's almost consistently inconsistent...

Well, I picked IC in my projection in the other thread earlier this week, so that wasn't a stretch.  IC had a stronger SOS and a less damning loss than CWRU.  I don't know what the compelling reason for pushing SJF over Endicott was.  Perhaps the committee chair will have an answer tonight.

Seriously? 0.497 v 0.487  stronger by only .01 and in fact CWRU had a slightly better OWP?

How is getting blown out by 41 points (by an in-region team only ranked #6 in region the week before) less damning than a 10 point loss to a team the rest of the season suggests wouldn't win a rematch and is by the criteria not an in-region loss?

As soon as the two-loss door was opened there are a couple of teams I would have chosen before IC (Randolph-Macon for one had a win over ranked Hampden-Sydney and a .528 SoS).

But you were on the same wavelength as the committee, well done.

I had said after CWRU's game on Saturday, "I will be disappointed, but not upset, if CWRU isn't selected."  But then added unless Illinois College is.

And I have to ask: "How can regional rankings apparently change so much from the penultimate to the double-secret final?"  Two teams selected, IC and SJF, had been ranked #9 previous week.  Montclair's loss could explain SJF moving up, but they also leap-frogged Endicott (not that I wouldn't have selected SJF over Endicott).

[smedindy]

This may hustle the UAA toward a convenient football merger with the SCAC, perhaps.

[formerd3db]

LGHistorian and Wabco:

Sorry I missed this discussion - hadn't checked this board yesterday or today.  LG has it right (he always gets it right! ) re: the 1977 Wabash/Hope game.  We've had some nice/enjoyable discussions on this in the past.  That, indeed, was one of the greatest/toughest games i ever played in - an not just because we won.  Wabash was tough and I remember being so winded because they were throwing the ball a ton.  We would just get back to the defensive huddle and trying to catch our breath and praying that the next play was not going to be another pass!  I also remember the game vividly because the start of the game was delayed quite some time due to a monsterous thunder and lightening storm - it was raining so hard near the end of pre-game warm-ups that you couldn't see 5 yards in front of you.  For most of the Hope fans, fortunately they were undercover of our old stadium grandstands at Riverview Park Stadium, which had a roof. Not so lucky for the Wabash faithful and Hope students in the "Student Section" over on the visitors side. I'm sure LG that you remember that sideline where you were with the students right at your back about 10 yards away - kind of cozy! Anyway, it was a tough game as I said with both teams playing their utmost and we were very lucky to beat Wabash.  Also, just for the record for you guys; I was rooting for your Wabash in the Stagg Bowl that year!  And finally, we've talked about this before, but wish that the Hope/Wabash series would be reinstated sometime.

Anyway, again, good luck to Wabash in the playoffs this year.

[smedindy]

d3db - That may be tough starting in 2013 when the NCAC has a full-round robin. After week 3, you may be stuck with the UAA, CCIW or HCAC for non-conference games. But I enjoyed the trips to Holland.

[wally_wabash]

Still it doesn't make sense, though on how one region is treated different than the other.

Plus the statement: "She didn't really answer why the regional committee moved SJF ahead of Endicott (or IWU ahead of Case for that matter), but she made it clear that these were decisions by the respective regional committees not subject to change by the national committee." doesn't make sense with what you just said.

It's OK Wally, you don't have to be correct every single time! 

I didn't hear the entire conversation with Dr. Solomen.  If she said they didn't tweak the lists the RACs game them, then it becomes even more curious that SJF and IWU would have been moved around.  I'm not sure what exactly changed between week 10 and week 11 to move those teams around.  Can we say that the committee was wrong though?  Does anybody really buy CWRU being better than IWU or Endicott being better than SJF?  It's hard to say they did the tournament dirty by making those choices. 

smeds...was the committee clear enough about the importance (or lack thereof) of regional records today?  Albion gets seeded #32 and gets fed to the Warhawks, CWRU can't get off the table getting passed over by, quite possibly five other Pool C teams including 2-loss SJF.  We've debated this all week, but it should be clear...all of the results matter, regional or not.

Then why IC? And why a two-loss team? It's almost consistently inconsistent...

Well, I picked IC in my projection in the other thread earlier this week, so that wasn't a stretch.  IC had a stronger SOS and a less damning loss than CWRU.  I don't know what the compelling reason for pushing SJF over Endicott was.  Perhaps the committee chair will have an answer tonight.

Seriously? 0.497 v 0.487  stronger by only .01 and in fact CWRU had a slightly better OWP?

How is getting blown out by 41 points (by an in-region team only ranked #6 in region the week before) less damning than a 10 point loss to a team the rest of the season suggests wouldn't win a rematch and is by the criteria not an in-region loss?

As soon as the two-loss door was opened there are a couple of teams I would have chosen before IC (Randolph-Macon for one had a win over ranked Hampden-Sydney and a .528 SoS).

But you were on the same wavelength as the committee, well done.

I had said after CWRU's game on Saturday, "I will be disappointed, but not upset, if CWRU isn't selected."  But then added unless Illinois College is.

And I have to ask: "How can regional rankings apparently change so much from the penultimate to the double-secret final?"  Two teams selected, IC and SJF, had been ranked #9 previous week.  Montclair's loss could explain SJF moving up, but they also leap-frogged Endicott (not that I wouldn't have selected SJF over Endicott).

As for CWRU...as you know I did not project CWRU into the field based on how I applied the criteria.  On another level, I'm pretty familiar with the teams on CWRU's schedule as we've all been sharing opponents around here for four years now.  I really think any team striving for an at-large invitation playing those teams HAS to be 10-0.  Yes, getting mashed by Monmouth and their D3 career record setting fifth year quarterback is less damning than losing to Rochester by 10 or whatever it was.  IC played a good team and lost, but then they beat everybody else they should have.  Playoff teams beat the entirety of CWRU's schedule without slipping, and will do it much more impressively than the Spartans did.  That's just an opinion...it isn't fair, but teams without Pool A access have to do a little more. 

Can anybody sit here and say without a doubt that CWRU is better than IC?  I really don't think so.  Yes, the criteria were close and CWRU did not have an in-region loss (which I think we all see now is far from the be-all).  It's a coin toss between CWRU and IC...hardly a travesty that IC was selected. 

Regarding the RR's...SJF was just one spot behind Endicott in the rankings as was IWU one spot behind CWRU.  It's not like a radical change was made at the last minute.  Filling out my regional top 10 week to week, I've shifted teams around that both won that week...re-evaluation can happen. 

[Pat Coleman]

smeds...was the committee clear enough about the importance (or lack thereof) of regional records today?  Albion gets seeded #32 and gets fed to the Warhawks, CWRU can't get off the table getting passed over by, quite possibly five other Pool C teams including 2-loss SJF.  We've debated this all week, but it should be clear...all of the results matter, regional or not.

Then why IC? And why a two-loss team? It's almost consistently inconsistent...

Well, I picked IC in my projection in the other thread earlier this week, so that wasn't a stretch.  IC had a stronger SOS and a less damning loss than CWRU.  I don't know what the compelling reason for pushing SJF over Endicott was.  Perhaps the committee chair will have an answer tonight.

Seriously? 0.497 v 0.487  stronger by only .01 and in fact CWRU had a slightly better OWP?

How is getting blown out by 41 points (by an in-region team only ranked #6 in region the week before) less damning than a 10 point loss to a team the rest of the season suggests wouldn't win a rematch and is by the criteria not an in-region loss?

As soon as the two-loss door was opened there are a couple of teams I would have chosen before IC (Randolph-Macon for one had a win over ranked Hampden-Sydney and a .528 SoS).

But you were on the same wavelength as the committee, well done.

I had said after CWRU's game on Saturday, "I will be disappointed, but not upset, if CWRU isn't selected."  But then added unless Illinois College is.

And I have to ask: "How can regional rankings apparently change so much from the penultimate to the double-secret final?"  Two teams selected, IC and SJF, had been ranked #9 previous week.  Montclair's loss could explain SJF moving up, but they also leap-frogged Endicott (not that I wouldn't have selected SJF over Endicott).

Case's national SOS was lower than its regional SOS, because of Rochester. I'm sure that when you get to the Pool C process, all D-III opponent are considered.