FB: North Coast Athletic Conference

[Obieqb7]

Hey everyone!

I've been reading these boards for a while now. Just graduated from Oberlin so I'm a big fan of the NCAC and D3 football in general. I played football while at Oberlin and it was the best experience of my life. I wish it wasn't over :/

I look forward to talking with you all about this upcoming season. Can't wait to see how the NCAC pans out.

Go Yeo.

[Pat Coleman]

Glad to have an Oberlin poster! Welcome to the board.

[Obieqb7]

Thank you!

So I have a question... What does everyone here think that schools like Oberlin lack in terms of ability to compete at a high level? Just speaking on behalf of Oberlin - it seemed like we had the talent to be competitive against some great teams, yet we haven't pulled off a .500 season since 2007. Depth? The difficulty of obtaining premiere high school talent due to strict admissions policy? I would like to see other input on this matter. Obviously it can be done having witnessed Kenyon's 2012 season.

[wally_wabash]

Thank you!

So I have a question... What does everyone here think that schools like Oberlin lack in terms of ability to compete at a high level? Just speaking on behalf of Oberlin - it seemed like we had the talent to be competitive against some great teams, yet we haven't pulled off a .500 season since 2007. Depth? The difficulty of obtaining premiere high school talent due to strict admissions policy? I would like to see other input on this matter. Obviously it can be done having witnessed Kenyon's 2012 season.

Thanks for jumping in!  Very cool to have you on board and to have a first hand perspective from Oberlin. 

My opinion is that it is about numbers mostly.  You're absolutly right that Oberlin has talented players and can be as good as anybody else in the league at any given time, but if/when the Yeomen have to sit a player down due to injury or illness or whatever it might be, there tends to be a big dropoff.   And beyond just how a small roster manifests itself in how well a team can handle attrition on Saturdays, I think numbers also play a big part in how much a team can do to prepare and practice.  I think there are obvious benefits to having a big enough roster to have scout teams during practice and JV games for the younger guys who otherwise wouldn't get game experience until they get thrown right into the fire when it is finally their turn. 

I think it's really hard to compare Kenyon's 2012 season with Oberlin's 2012 season.  For one, Kenyon didn't lose their senior quarterback for three and a half winnable games.  And second, Kenyon didn't play the same schedule.  Kenyon got to play Wooster and DePauw (both just 1-6 in league play), Oberlin got to play Wabash and Wittenberg.  What happens to the records of those teams if they traded schedules? 

[Obieqb7]

You make great points. I do agree that it is the roster depth of teams like Oberlin. But I think that this problem originates with the lack of support and different mentalities between the athletic departments and academic administrations. If the admissions committee only admits around 25% of recruits, them it's tough to bring in a class as talented as other teams in the conference. And finding recruits who have 26 ACTs or higher in conjunction with a 3.5+ GPA unweighted, is difficult on its own. I believe this goes for not only Oberlin, but also some other schools who have a tough time getting admissions committees on board with the advancement of the football team.

I agree with you 100% about the difference in Kenyon's and Oberlin's seasons. Don't get me wrong, Kenyon was a force to be reckoned with this year, but their schedule was a bit easier than others.

I know that Oberlin could be a top contender if it weren't for our lack of depth in each class. Two years ago (2010) for example, we had 2 seniors, 13 juniors and 25 or so sophomores and freshmen. Last year (2011), we started off with 45 players and ended up playing our last game against Allegheny with only 27 healthy bodies. I'm not trying to make this an excuse, but I just wish that it changes someday. I played QB for Oberlin for the past couple years and I experienced first-hand what one injury can do to a team that lacks serious depth. If we could all stay healthy during the whole season, our record would be different.

But that's the name of the game. I do wonder what it would be like to play at a D3 powerhouse like Wabash, Witt, and even Case.

[wally_wabash]

You make great points. I do agree that it is the roster depth of teams like Oberlin. But I think that this problem originates with the lack of support and different mentalities between the athletic departments and academic administrations. If the admissions committee only admits around 25% of recruits, them it's tough to bring in a class as talented as other teams in the conference. And finding recruits who have 26 ACTs or higher in conjunction with a 3.5+ GPA unweighted, is difficult on its own. I believe this goes for not only Oberlin, but also some other schools who have a tough time getting admissions committees on board with the advancement of the football team.

I think this is probably the issue at hand.  I don't believe that being relatively exclusive with respect to admissions negates an institution's ability to have a competitive athletics program if that institution happens to think that a competitive athletics program is important to the school's mission.  Everybody has a different approach to this whole higher ed thing.  At the more exclusive schools, like Oberlin, I think you can have your cake and eat it too, but it takes effort.  It takes a network of people who are familiar enough with what makes a prospective student "Oberlin material" to target and refer and recruit and then it takes resources from the institution itself to recruit further and sell the school and the sport of choice to that prospective.  I believe that that can happen.  In a way, I think resources need to be dedicated not just to finding and attracting future Oberlin students who might happen to also play football, but you've got find football players who would make great Oberlin students...if that makes sense.  I hope it does. 

And I don't even think necessarily that Oberlin needs a football roster of 90 or 100 guys.  But if you all could dial in to 20 or so kids every recruiting year, solid players that fit for Oberlin, and maintain a roster of 65-75 players that has some quality beyond just the first line of the two-deep, I believe Oberlin could be a very, very good football team.  You've got the coaching and the players always play with great effort.  Just need to add a few more bodies to get all the way through 10 weeks. 

[Obieqb7]

I couldn't say it better myself. I really hope Oberlin makes some strides for the better in upcoming years, not only because of my dedication to Coach Ramsey, my teammates and the school, but also because it would add some spice to the NCAC. A lot of the teams in the conference are literally one step from becoming a year-in, year-out power in the conference. Hopefully it continues. It's going to be weird watching the games in the future and not being able to play in them - but I'll get used to it I guess.

[formerd3db]

Obieqb7:

Yes, welcome to the boards.  Good to have your perspective on your now alma mater and good discussion between you and WW.  Oberlin has a great tradition as you obviously know i.e. the Heisman Club, etc. among many aspects and I love the old history, such as the accounts of the 1899 game they played with Alma College.  You probably know this despite it being well before your time, but I've always been glad that Oberlin never dropped the program when the came dangerously close to doing so back in the late 1970's.  Schools that have the recruiting challenges that you and WW have been discussing certainly can make it work as the "Berg, Kenyon, your Oberlin has shown in a few recent years as you mentioned, and even our own Olivet (and Adrian) in our MIAA as has occurred on occasions over the past decade or so.

Anyway, again great to have you "on board" (now that you can officially do so! .  Also, best wishes for a most enjoyable upcoming graduation weekend and for your future endeavors.

[sigma one]

Obieqb7, welcome.  Everyone is commenting on the numbers problem at Oberlin.  For years, Obie has gone into the season undernumbered.  As I've watched over time, I've seen excellent coaching--Ramsey is first-rate at getting the most out of his teams--and superior players at four or five positions.  And last fall a special group of seniors made Oberlin competitive against everyone, and capable of the big game--e.g. upsetting Wabash.  But that class is graduating, taking away talent at linebacker, wide receiver (who would not have take Witjes on their team?), defensive line (Clay Eaton was really, really fun to see), and quarterback(7).  And several other positions will lose multiple-year starters.  I counted 15 freshmen on the Oberlin roster for 2012.  In recent years the numbers have been about the same, and if I recall correctly, a year or two ago there were about 10 froshpersons. 
     You simply cannot build a consistent program with a first-year class of 10-15 or so newcomers.  Some get hurt, some decide to leave the team, some just don't have the ability.  As someone said earlier, you have to be able to enroll student-athletes who meet the academic profile of the school and who can also play at a high level.  I believe Ramesy can recruit.  He has to be able to enroll 20 or more frosh every year.  As it stands, Oberlin will always be a scary team on any given Saturday, but the Yoemen will never be in the top half of the NCAC under its current  situation.  If the goal is to reach the top half and more than occasionally beat the schools that hover from #3 to #6, there has to be institutional support.  Frankly, I don't know if the Oberlin administration has the desire to create a winning program.  It appears that someone is saying 2-8 to 4-6 year after year is acceptable to the college.  That's OK they seem to be saying, while those who care about a winning program--on this board and among alumni, etc.--are on a different page.  Sometimes, to the dismay of those who want the whole NCAC to be stronger top to bottom, we might have to accept the reality that the philosophy of a few conference schools does not include athletic success; that they are satisfied havng athletics as a, um, necessary evil.  (To the frustration of their own athletes as well as of those who support athletics as integral to the collegiate experience.)
 

[Obieqb7]

Thanks for the welcome formerd3db and sigma one.

I agree with everyone's input and opinions about the problems with Oberlin football. Sigma, thanks for recognizing the talent we had.

Ramsey does recruit really hard and so did Coach Estep (off. Coord). Other than the both of them, up until this offseason, we haven't had any other coaches recruiting, which is an obvious problem. Coach Estep is a great recruiter - he came to my house in South Florida, ate up my moms home cooked Cuban food, and sold himself and the school. He and coach Ramsey are great coaches and recruiters, but it takes more than two to be successful in recruiting.

As for the administration, they could care less about athletic success. They are so involved in the liberal perspective of the school and the academic prestige that athletics take a backseat. They haven't helped with admissions policies in my 4 and a half years at Oberlin and I don't see them being any more lenient in the future. There is only so much coach Ramsey and coach Estep can do when admissions only admits less than 25% of the prospective players (according to their anecdotal evidence). I wish the administration would get on board.

Although, I do believe that if another surprising win occurs, such as Wabash this past year, then there could be some positive movement. I received multiple emails from some administration personnel after the Wabash game congratulating me - the first time I have ever gotten any sort of acknowledgement from anybody who isn't in te athletic department. Nothing wrong with that, but I feel that if wins like Wabash occur a little more often, administration might realize the importance of the athletics department, especially football.

The one factor that debilitates the administration from becoming more on board with football is the non-athlete student body. The students are very liberal and don't like athletics for the most part - in actuality, they don't want any association with us for the most part. Sucks, but if that can turn around a little bit, in accordance with a few more big wins, administration might actually back the football program.

I know most of you guys are Wabash fans, but I just want to let you all know how meaningful that win this past year was. As I mentioned previously, I was the QB for Oberlin. We had a tough four years because of injury and lack of depth and talent, but we worked as hard as any other team in te country - whether it was 7 AM workouts, late night film sessions Sunday-Thursday, early morning film sessions all week, and hours in the gym. That one win made my career, along with numerous other careers. I sympathize with Wabash fans because of the tradition and expectations you possess (I am familiar with the mentality of a Wabash-like program, as I played at St. Thomas Aquinas in Fort Lauderdale, FL), but I just want you guys to realize the respect you all have. That win negates all of our losses, and I am certain I can speak on behalf of many of my teammates.

Just sucks Witt beat the s*** out of us the next week. :/

[smedindy]

Welcome aboard!

I don't think that the lack of football team support is because the student body is liberal. Many successful schools with excellent student body support are from schools that have a definite liberal bent. It's just that Oberlin's academic program tends  to attract more of the arts and humanities types which don't value athletics as highly as they do other pursuits plus their athletics programs don't have a history of success. Tradition takes time to build and the athletics program needs to sustain success in order for the students to coalesce around it.

I worked at Oberlin as a fundraising consultant for a few days and it's definitely a different vibe than Wabash. But it's an intriguing and invigorating place . I'm glad they're in the NCAC and think they add a lot to the league in their own, quirky way. I want the NCAC to keep its academic standards high and keep attracting quality student athletes.

Oberlin needs to get at least 25 freshmen a year in the door, and with that coaching staff they can do well if they can hit those numbers each year. With the round robin, yes they may be a 4-5 or 5-4 team each year in the NCAC but that's better than being a punching bag, plus they'll have respect. All we want is for every team to be competitive. Oberlin's getting there if they can keep the numbers up.

[Mr. Ypsi]

Just to echo smed's excellent post, Michigan is certainly a liberal-trending campus (there are frequent references to The People's Republic of Ann Arbor ), yet they consistently sell out a 111,000 stadium.

In fact I (a dedicated liberal) haven't been to a game in years 'cause I can't get a ticket!

It is not liberals who are holding you down, though it may be other aspects of the culture.  Universities (both administrators and faculty) generally have a wide range of feelings about athletics, ranging from 'jock-sniffers' to 'anti dumb jocks', but sometimes get a preponderance of one or the other.  If you DO have a preponderance of the latter, my sympathies.

[sigma one]

Obieqb7:  I watched you guys over the last four years (and before, actually).  You played Wabash to the wire in 2011, leading into the 4th quarter if memory serves.  A lot of us who follow Wabash believe that the 2011 game positioned you for 2012:  "Yeah, we can play with those guys."  You should be proud of the win last fall.  It puts you in special company.  Since Wabash joined the NCAC Wittenberg, Allegheny, and Wooster had beaten the LGs.  You added your school to that list. 
      Most of us, maybe all of us, know about Oberlin's academic excellence.  There are players out there who could help the program if Oberlin admissions treats them fairly.  The question is Do They?  Or do they take others over student-athletes?  I was unaware that only two Oberlin coaches recruit.  Why is that?  At Wabash the entire staff recruits, including the football interns.  All the coaches are on the road.  Is budget a consideration?  One main difference in the Wabash/Oberlin cultures, and perhaps in the cultures of many schools v. Oberlin, is that enrolling student-athletes helps (or is essential to) a lot of schools "making" their first-year class.  I doubt if that's true at Oberlin.  Oberlin could havve the same number of students if athletics disappeared.  If Wabash, as one example, didn't recruit student-athletes (and I can say for sure that student-athletes have the same academic profile as non athletes) Wabash would have a difficult time "making" its class.  That's so for many of the NCAC schools.  I've always been impressed by the passion of Oberlin athletes against long odds. 

[formerd3db]

Hilarious, Mr. Ypsi! Love your comments

In all seriousness, though, I agree with you, smeds and our new posting member Obieqb7.  I don't want to speak for Obie with regards to terms, however, I believe what he was saying is essentially the same as what we are saying i.e. by liberal he probably meant the over-the-top misguided academic/non-athletic crowd.  As you and smeds have eloquently stated, there is always that faction at most of these schools which we all "clash helmets with" regarding the football program (actually all the athletic programs, but I'll stick with football here since that is our main interest) and the academic programs and admissions policies involved.  It can be done obviously as you have mentioned and I firmly believe that Oberlin can be a succesfull if not decent program and not take the mis-guided way out like the Swarthemore debacle of about 13 years ago (the latter still irks me to this day - just like Hutchin's infamous mis-guided University of Chicago travesty and I wasn't even born then )

On a side note (and less important, of course), Mr. Ypsi you are correct about the liberal aspect of U of Michigan - which is too bad! .  Being that my late father was a U of Michigan alum (for both undergrad and graduate school as you know from my sharing that in the past) and his being a conservative, thus, me being a lifelong follower of the school, like he was, I remain a staunch conservative supporting the school which puts me in the minority there! And that is not intended as a "stone throw" at you, my friend! 

[smedindy]

Sigma,

Athletics may bring in some males that normally wouldn't go to Oberlin. Not a huge amount, but some, and that's probably why they have kept football alive and at least breathing on its own. But they are probably the most competitive school in the NCAC (maybe Kenyon's just as tough to get in to) so it may not help that much.

However, as the NESCAC has shown (even if they don't play in the playoffs), you can have a very competitive school (admit %) and on the athletics field.