FB: North Coast Athletic Conference

[wabndy]

HS plays in C'ville in 2014. Wabash goes there in 2015, followed by a trip to Allegheny the next week.  Then comes home to play Witt the next week.

Not quite accurate-  Looks like the Hampden Sydney game is on Week 1.  Wabash would take a bye for week 2 in both 2014 and 15.  That puts the season opener the weekend after the first full week of classes.
http://sports.wabash.edu/documents/2013/10/22/2013FBMediaGuide.pdf

[DPU3619]

They're really putting Wabash/Witt in the second week of league play?  Oh man, they are.  Super boo to that. 

But then again who knows...maybe in 2015, we'll have a winner take all game with Denison in Week 10.  Maybe not that crazy.

Careful here. Gonna open up the Old Pal Wes scheduling theory conversation again.

[gobash83]

wabco--personally, I think the series is a good idea and see the potential for marketing and public relations opportunities that you mention.  I was just sharing concerns that had been expressed to me. At the same time, I do appreciate the prerogative of coaches and athletic directors building schedules to match budgetary and team development needs.  As I said in my first post, it was a question of process (who should drive scheduling decisions for teams) and distance.   

While Franklin would be a worthy opponent, I would not be a fan of an annual game with them.  With only one non-conference game, I think Wabash needs to be strategic in its scheduling and doesn't need to lock that game up in a long-term contract. 

[wabco]

GoBash83

Did not mean anything negative toward you.  Just was "floored" by the message.  I just spent some time since your message "running the traps".  This appears ... at least from policy makers standpoints at Wabash ... to be a big YES positive go ... which will get larger once this season and Witt and Dannies are dispatched.  I think it will be a train we will all be glad we are on.  This is much larger strategically for the College than any local opponent game.

[gobash83]

wabco, thanks for the message but I didn't take it personally at all.  I am glad that the series is being embraced.     

[wally_wabash]

Let's get into the way back machine here for a second as it relates to Wabash/Franklin.  The two teams got together for two outstanding football games in 2006 and 2007.  In 2006, Wabash played the dreaded 1st game of the year vs. 2nd game of the year game with Franklin and ended up losing in OT.  Later in the year, the LGs got Tristan Murray-ed and ended the season 8-2.  Even though Wabash was a co-champion (thanks, OWU), Wittenberg won the automatic bid and Wabash was left out of the tournament.  I'd have to go way, way back to figure out if a 9-1 Wabash team (regardless of who Wabash would have traded that Franklin game for) would have been a viable at-large team, but certainly they would have been more viable without that second loss. 

In 2007, Franklin lost a thriller.  Now the Grizzlies did run the HCAC table and qualified for the postseason, but their reward was a first rounder at North Central, which they lost.  Again, I'd have to go back and research to find out if undefeated Franklin would have been likely to host a playoff game, but I think we can agree that they would have had a better shot at hosting if they were 10-0 instead of 9-1. 

Now consider the upside of winning that game.  Is the winner of that game going to leap to the top of the regional rankings?  Not now.  This is Mount Union's world.  The only way you get to the top of these rankings is if somebody beats Mount Union.  Doesn't matter who you beat in your ten games, as long as Mount Union doesn't lose, they are going to be #1.  And really as long as there are undefeated CCIW champions lingering, #2 is probably out of the question also.  Particularly for teams playing weaker leagues like the NCAC and HCAC.  So whether you go 10-0 with a win over Franklin or Wabash or 10-0 without it, you're probably winding up in the same spot. 

So, while a Franklin/Wabash series would be exciting and generate a lot of regional buzz and probably some front page D3football.com coverage, in the big postseason picture- at least in my own opinion- there is almost all risk and very little reward. 

[sigma one]

Wally, et al:  Once again, Wally, you deftly tease out nuance--in this case why non-conference scheduling matters for a team that plays in a conference where one loss in conference play makes it difficult for them to become a legitimate candidate for post-season play--and a second loss any time during the season means they turn in their helmets.  Not that Wabash should go looking for the weakest sister it can find, but that for a team in the NCAC who they engage with in their non-conference game has to be thought about.  And not predominantly in terms of what fans would like to see.  Strategic scheduling matters for Wabash. 
     And so, I said in several earlier posts, and apparently I am in the weak minority, I do not like the Hampden-Sydney game.  It's not like I don't want to see a match up of two excellent teams (as long as no one insists on calling this something silly like "the real Stagg Bowl").   All the "benefits" that have been mentioned are, in my view, not sufficient to make the HSC game a good idea. I'm not denying that there are potential benefits, although not to a degree that will raise the public relations and marketing profile of either institution.  I respect the opinions of the posters who think differently, so we may just have to agree to disagree.  And I really don't know if we will be able to tell if there are tangible benefits. 
     All this said, I sure am looking forward to the game--as a game I will be entertained by.  And I will be in the stands in Virginia the year after next if the creek don't rise.   
     
     

[BashBacker#16]

Report from Little Giant Stadium:  RVs are already positioned...  Our tent is up as of 7:53am marking our spot.  #gobash  #epicsaturday  #WAF

[BayernFan]

Could someone please explain why its a "bad decision" for Wabash to schedule a stag bowl series against Hampden Sydney? Did the administration direct something over the wishes of AD and coaches?  The only real down side I see is that its a really stinkin long bus ride or an expensive plane trip.  Beyond that, I'm not seeing much else on the negative column.  No one can dispute that it's excellent national marketing opportunity, a chance to reach out to a large number of mid-atlantic alumni.  As far as football piece of it, you are scheduling your one non-conference game against a team that is respected and where you have a decent shot at a win.  Is it a sure win? of course not, no game against a potential regionally ranked opponent (another plus) ever is.  HSC typically averages 1-3 losses a year, so your SOS is going to get a boost. 

Who else from the neighborhood should wabash schedule instead?  We've done a series with Franklin in recent memory.  Hanover's weak SOS and record doesn't do us any favors.  Sure we could go try and slay a CCIW dragon (NCC, Wheaton, IWU) if they'd have us - which is by no means a guarantee since they as recent history proves, they don't need to schedule us to be near the top of the Pool C picture and would only get hurt if they picked up a loss.  Who else then?  Sure, we might be able to work a contract with one of the other midwest teams that we've traditionally scheduled before the NCAC/UAA deal locked up the non-conference schedule.  Why is doing that again so signifigantly better than adding a few more miles to the team bus to play a series that gives us the potential for an excellent couple of games and an excellent story.  Oh, and HSC's mascot is a tiger.  I hate tigers.

I wouldn't mind a series with The Blueboys of Illinois College out of the MWC.   Very nice fans, playing us would be a challenge for them, they are ranked #22 now so they are no slouch and are consistently at the top of the MWC, a 3 hour drive to just west of Springfield, and if you wanted you could take in the Lincoln sites and even get some good natured banter going about which state is REALLY Abe's home state.

Also out of the MWC by way of good teams are St. Norbert (may be too far in Green Bay) and Lake Forest outside Chicago.

A series with a few MWC teams could also be good recruiting opportunities for everyone.

An MWC/Wabash series would also give both teams a regional game.  Although, I see that Illinois College is ranked #8 in the West even as their schedule shows a regional game vs Hanover this year (isn't hanover a North team?) and their rival St. Norbert played John Carroll (north team right?) as a regional game this year.  They played that one in Toyota Park which is in a southwest suburb of Chicago where the Chicago Fire play their MLS soccer games.  It seats about 20,000 or more.  So wouldn't it be cool to play some Wisconsin MWC teams in the Chicago area?

[GRIZ_BACKER]

Let's get into the way back machine here for a second as it relates to Wabash/Franklin.  The two teams got together for two outstanding football games in 2006 and 2007.  In 2006, Wabash played the dreaded 1st game of the year vs. 2nd game of the year game with Franklin and ended up losing in OT.  Later in the year, the LGs got Tristan Murray-ed and ended the season 8-2.  Even though Wabash was a co-champion (thanks, OWU), Wittenberg won the automatic bid and Wabash was left out of the tournament.  I'd have to go way, way back to figure out if a 9-1 Wabash team (regardless of who Wabash would have traded that Franklin game for) would have been a viable at-large team, but certainly they would have been more viable without that second loss. 

In 2007, Franklin lost a thriller.  Now the Grizzlies did run the HCAC table and qualified for the postseason, but their reward was a first rounder at North Central, which they lost.  Again, I'd have to go back and research to find out if undefeated Franklin would have been likely to host a playoff game, but I think we can agree that they would have had a better shot at hosting if they were 10-0 instead of 9-1. 

Now consider the upside of winning that game.  Is the winner of that game going to leap to the top of the regional rankings?  Not now.  This is Mount Union's world.  The only way you get to the top of these rankings is if somebody beats Mount Union.  Doesn't matter who you beat in your ten games, as long as Mount Union doesn't lose, they are going to be #1.  And really as long as there are undefeated CCIW champions lingering, #2 is probably out of the question also.  Particularly for teams playing weaker leagues like the NCAC and HCAC.  So whether you go 10-0 with a win over Franklin or Wabash or 10-0 without it, you're probably winding up in the same spot. 

So, while a Franklin/Wabash series would be exciting and generate a lot of regional buzz and probably some front page D3football.com coverage, in the big postseason picture- at least in my own opinion- there is almost all risk and very little reward.

I would agree that the primary risk/limited reward would be limited for Wabash as they have to contend with Witt later in the season.  For Franklin with the horrid HCAC these days the reward is avoiding the 4/5 trap (or worse) and the second round trip to UWW/MU/MHB (pick one). 

One small note in the spirit of the wayback:  Franklin actually hosted the game with NCC (as the 4) and lost on a 4th and 28 TD pass as time expired.  The next year Franklin played at NCC (after ringing up 62 at Otterbein the week before) in the second round and won.  That is the same year that Wheaton advanced to the final 4 as a 7 to play Mount (Wheaton and Franklin played in the famous snow game at Franklin High School on their turf.  The GRIZ field at that time was grass and was torn up and frozen from the mud bowl with Hanover to end the season.

[sigma one]

Weather forecast one-day-out for Crawfordsville on Saturday:  No change from yesterday--mid-50s at KO.  Wind out of the sw at 18-22 mph, gusting over 25 mph.  Kicking and passing games, field position. 

[wally_wabash]

That's my bad, GB.  I misread the 2007 schedule there. 

I'll say just a couple of more things about the schedule (for now) before moving on to some final Witt/Wabash thoughts.  I like the Wabash/HSC series, for just two years, because it's different.  For a while we were stuck playing 7 NCAC teams, Chicago, WashU, and DePauw every year.  Zero variety.  Now we have 9 league games and just one elective game.  We aren't getting variety very often moving forward, so the series with HSC is nice for that reason.  I don't think we should renew the series beyond 2015, but doing a home and home once every 8-10 years isn't a terrible idea. 

Where do I think Wabash should get the non-league game from?  Chicago.  While those games agaiinst Chicago weren't very competitive, I think it was awesome to have a gameday presence in dowtown Chicago, which is an area where Wabash seems to always be wanting to do better from a student-athlete recruitment standpoint.  Bringing gameday to prospective students is hugely beneficial, IMO.  So I wouldn't mind seeing series with Chicago, Concordia-Chicago, Lake Forest, Elmhurst, North Park, Benedictine...something like that. 

[ExTartanPlayer]

That's my bad, GB.  I misread the 2007 schedule there. 

I'll say just a couple of more things about the schedule (for now) before moving on to some final Witt/Wabash thoughts.  I like the Wabash/HSC series, for just two years, because it's different.  For a while we were stuck playing 7 NCAC teams, Chicago, WashU, and DePauw every year.  Zero variety.  Now we have 9 league games and just one elective game.  We aren't getting variety very often moving forward, so the series with HSC is nice for that reason.  I don't think we should renew the series beyond 2015, but doing a home and home once every 8-10 years isn't a terrible idea. 

Where do I think Wabash should get the non-league game from?  Chicago.  While those games agaiinst Chicago weren't very competitive, I think it was awesome to have a gameday presence in dowtown Chicago, which is an area where Wabash seems to always be wanting to do better from a student-athlete recruitment standpoint.  Bringing gameday to prospective students is hugely beneficial, IMO.  So I wouldn't mind seeing series with Chicago, Concordia-Chicago, Lake Forest, Elmhurst, North Park, Benedictine...something like that.

I think the idea is a good one.  I think UChicago might be tough to schedule because I'm not sure how many openings they'll have with the dual UAA/SAA scheduling.  Some of the others might be tough to schedule because they just won't want to play a team as good as Wabash, although I do expect North Park to improve quite substantially under Conway and that might hold some future potential.  Worth asking because all you need is one team to say yes to home-and-home.  I don't know how locked in that Benedictine-Wheaton series is but that shows they're not afraid to play a tough non-league game. 

[wabndy]

I would agree that the primary risk/limited reward would be limited for Wabash as they have to contend with Witt later in the season.  For Franklin with the horrid HCAC these days the reward is avoiding the 4/5 trap (or worse) and the second round trip to UWW/MU/MHB (pick one). 

Griz, I think you are overlooking one very important point.  YOU ARE IN THE PLAYOFFS.  The ultimate goal for any team not in the NESCAC should be to win a national championship.  I think that is Franklin's goal (why else would you regularly bone up against the purple powers to start the season).  Your goal is not "gee we'd really like to host a playoff game and be semi-competitive in round two."  This isn't the 68 team D1 basketball playoffs where a #2 or #3 seed can go ahead and pencil in hotel reservations at the sweet sixteen location.  You are going to have to play a Mount Union or Whitewater or a very tough CCIW, or even a Mary Hardin Baylor very very early.  We all know why these seedings are occasionally "less-than-fair."  It doesn't change the fact that the NCAA is not exactly making money off this tournament and we are mere beneficiaries of the NCAA's largesse.  Look how far we've come from the 8 or 16 team playoff.  Beat Bluffton on saturday and your playoff ticket is punched.  You are probably going to host a game, too.  I don't think there is another two loss team in the country that is sitting as pretty.  Just don't expect too much sympathy if that is as a #4 seed.  Especially not on this board, where either Wabash or Wittenberg will probably finish 9-1 and be praying that the 4th or 5th Pool C slot falls in their lap.

[wally_wabash]

Yeah, it doesn't have to be UChicago exactly...just any one of the schools up in the area.  The idea is that I think it's good for Wabash to play a game up there every other year or as close to that as possible.  I think this is part of the reason why Witt played Butler.  They get a reasonably non-consequential game in an area that I'm sure they'd love to be plugged into for recruiting purposes.  And they get to do it without sharing the field with a team that is a conference rival.  I still think playing FCS schools is silly, but you can see the fringe benefits from having done it. 

Benedictine would be fun.  We owe them one from 1997.